The way the world sees us...

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#1 by gabezhul
2011-09-12 at 20:45
< report >Well, I'm not entirely comfortable in bringing up this here, but I just got into a small "fight" about Visual Novels on another site.
The site in question was That Guy With The Glasses. Hopefully you have heard of them, but here's the rundown: it's a collaboration site of a huge team of reviewers from the different parts of the world, making comedic video reviews of movies, games, comic books, music and everything else imaginable. I'm an avid follower of the contributors, but there was one particular review segment that has been bothering me for quite a while.

The review show I'm talking about is GameFap, and, as the name implies, it is a show about mocking hentai-games. The main reason it bothered me was not because of the review themselves. I mean, crap is crap no matter the medium, so parodying stuff like X-Change and Do You Like Horny Bunnies is something I support with all my might... The reactions of said reviews, on the other hand... -.-'

As I said, I got into a small "fight" with a few people over there because I tried to ask the creator of the show to do a bit of a PSA work on his next video so that the masses would get that nukige=/=all visual novel.
What I got instead, was this: link You have to scroll down a little, I come into the picture at around the tenth post. You will probably recognize me. :P

Anyways, if you don't want to do that for some reason, for example because you are lazy, here's the paraphrased story:
I asked for some sort of acknowledgment of the fact that the parodied eroges are not representative to the whole genre and that there are serious, literary visual novels out there, not just nukiges. Instead of that, I was immediately called out as a delusional idiot living in a dreamworld full of anime characters, because I was defending an "abnormal medium".

Now then, here's the question: Why? My post was about as collected, coherent and to the point as I could make it at six in the morning, and the reaction I got was that I am a crazy person living in a delusion who should get lost ASAP. Just... Just makes me question if VNs are even woth advertising for such a crowd... -.-'

So yeah, the final question: Have YOU ever run into a situation like that? For me, this was sort of an eye-opener, as this far I only tried to explain what visual novels really are to people who either didn't even know the medium existed or to people who already knew there was more to it that sexromps...
#2 by pendelhaven
2011-09-12 at 20:56
< report >
Still in the wrong place for thinking so far into this review which isn't made to be taken seriously.

There you have it. but then again, people makes misconceptions. In the past, in the present, and in the future. we're just repeating old mistakes. we never really learn from history. and yet I wonder why must history be placed on our curriculum given that people will make misconceptions.

This just proves that humanity is bound to be doomed. There's no one who will save us from making repetitive mistakes.Last modified on 2011-09-12 at 20:57
#3 by azathoth
2011-09-12 at 21:11
< report >Yes, I've run into situations like these before and have completely given up on opening the eyes of such narrow-minded people. Just let them say what they want about it knowing that they're wrong and keep to the places where people either could accept your point of view or where people already know just how great visual novels are.

But you tried, I'm glad you did. The problem didn't lie in you but in the people responding to your posts.
#4 by pendelhaven
2011-09-12 at 21:15
< report >who would have thought that a simple joke could actually cause humanity's doom?Last modified on 2011-09-12 at 21:15
#5 by atlas
2011-09-12 at 22:26
< report >Gabe, I don't think they liked you very much....

However, I am not shocked that you ran into that situation. You fought the good fight. Although saying Muv-Luv "outclasses" Dune (and yeah I understand what you were trying to get at) may have not been the best strategy. Don't get me wrong I loved MLA. Dune also happens to be one of my all time favorite books as well. I'm just not sure saying a visual novel (even one as good as MLA) "outclasses" one of the best sci-fi books ever written was a good move.

Still I've never bothered trying to explain the appeal of visual novels to anyone. Prior to summer of 2009, I didn't even know what a VN was. Still this is a very niche medium. Face it, many people who only know a little about the medium very likely have only heard of the sex romps.

Unfortunately, as one of the people there told you were "WAY WAY too far away from people who give a good crap about them." You were never going to convince those people anyway.Last modified on 2011-09-12 at 22:27
#6 by moogy
2011-09-12 at 22:46
< report >dune is a pretty shitty book past the halfway point and the rest of the series is total garbage

alternative is way better than anything written by some western faggot
#7 by pendelhaven
2011-09-12 at 23:03
< report >we're geeks. we're nerds. that's what the world sees us.
#8 by engix
2011-09-12 at 23:12
< report >Hey were a small community but i think its worth it if we get to play something we all enjoy.
#9 by surferdude
2011-09-12 at 23:41
< report >What gabe did on that site was pretty much like walking into some cheap bar and demand that his Martini be shaken, not stirred.

The fact is that the vast majority of visual novels contain porn. Whether it's a romantic depiction of consensual sex or guro tentacle raep makes little difference to those unfamiliar with the medium. And you just DON'T tell people what porn to watch or that your porn is better than theirs.

I've known about VNs since 1999, when the title "Seasons of the Sakura" got my attention while browsing a DLH game cheats database. It wasn't until 2006 that I got to actually play a VN, and let me tell you, it wasn't exactly what I'd hoped. To put it simply, I was in it for the porn and it didn't deliver, so I kinda gave up on VNs for the time being. But, a year later, I happened to run across another one, and this time it did deliver. Since then, I've played a decent number of VNs and my interest slowly shifted from nukige to more story-based novels. And in all this time I've never tried to convince a single person to read a visual novel, no matter what kind.

My point to this paragraph resembling a page out of a pervert's diary is that you should let people go about their own business, and if they're interested, then in time they'll discover the good things on their own and develop their personal preferences. In the long run, it will be better for everyone and it will save you the trouble of dealing with n00bs who think they know better.
#10 by PabloC
2011-09-13 at 00:09
< report >Oh, come on. What did you expect Gabe?
*Note that this post might be a little exaggerated at some points. It can't be helped - I find that whole issue a bit too annoying.*

Trying to advertise VNs to an average Joe, on a anime-unrelated site at that, is a lost cause I'm afraid. When you try to explain what a Visual Novel is:
-15% will not understand what you are talking about, because they can't read anything longer than 10 words (at best).
-30% will just troll you for lolz, and call you a weirdo/delusional kid/pervert/Satanist/pedophile, whatever sounds nasty enough for them.
-5% will REALLY think that you are a weirdo/delusional kid/pervert/Satanist/pedophile... -.-'
-25% will try listening to you seriously, but loose interest very soon. They just prefer listening to Justin B. and watching sparkly pseudo-vampires.
-20% will look like they are listening seriously, but they will ABSOLUTELY refuse to accept the simple fact, that VNs are NOT just hentai games/dating sims. No matter how hard you try to explain, no matter what arguments you use, it's just too difficult for them to comprehend.
-4% will actually listen to your arguments, try discussing this matter seriously, even agree to check out a VN that you'll recommend... and forget the whole discussion the next day, because they have some other things to do.
- The remaining 1% (representing people who are: open minded, sick of mainstream Hollywood Crap, like to try new things, can read something longer than a manual for a vacuum cleaner, etc.) will... find VNs themselves, sooner or later, even without your help. :P
(Note that the %s are there, just to make it all look smart) :P

The odds are better on a Japan-related site/forum - most of the people there are at least slightly open-minded. It's way easier to talk about VNs, when everyone at least heard about titles like Fate/Stay Night or Ef before.

Personally, I limit my advertisement mostly to the friends I meet in RL. It's much easier to talk about such things in person, with people who know you at least a little. And I still sometimes have a hard time to convince them that VNs are not just hentai... -.-'

I do try to correct at least the most obvious BS whenever I have the chance, but that usually ends just like Gabe's case. Whatever, I don't give a damn if some random anons think that I'm a weirdo or something. And not reading VNs is their loss to begin with, so screw them. :P
Still, despite what I said earlier, don't give up yet Gabe. Just get used to the discussions where 20 users scream "dumb porn rape-games" and 1 person tries to explain "interesting, complex stories". The "1%" that will listen to that single, lonely voice is still worth a try. ^^

On a side note, I find it quite funny how most of those gamers regard all VNs as porn without even trying to do some research and instantly classify us, readers, as social outcasts. At the same time however, they instantly rage when some random pseudo-authority says that all video games are brutal, propagate violence, and those who play them are deviants, murderers etc. -.-'
#11 by warfoki
2011-09-13 at 00:25
< report >Making a comment there was a good idea basicly. However, you made a few mistakes while actually presenting your opinion. Namely:

1. Never make comments like "it's better than Dune" (or any other populatr book for taht matter), since these kind of comments are the biggest flamebaits ever.

2. The most basic thing on the internet man: do not feed the trolls! I, for one, wouldn't even botherted with SlyJustin. Obvious troll is obvious, end of story.

But hey, at least Benzai responded. Also, since your post is on the first page, probably a lot of people will see it, so it's still good for advertisement. :) So it wasn't pointless, but yeah, trying to convince people over there won't really work.Last modified on 2011-09-13 at 00:28
#12 by unravel
2011-09-13 at 02:40
< report >I'm fine with anything people think about me. I'm reading novels not for others to see me "educated" or something like that, but for myself. Anyway it's their lose they can't see through the stereotype boarders to enjoy great stories. Besides there are those who share and know what's my hobby about.
#13 by justinizhere
2011-09-13 at 13:02
< report >well i read the link, and i have to disappointed. so few people know about visual novels, the last thing we need is stuff like that giving the whole genre a bad name =/

ah well, i personally don't care what people would think of me if i told them i read VN's but it just sucks in general.
#14 by emmanuelvr
2011-09-13 at 14:45
< report >
For example, Muv-Luv Alternative, if it would be put into printing, would be longer than Frank Herbert's Dune and it actually outclasses it as a work of science-fiction.

When I read that I was all "Oh shi- Shitstorm incoming. Abandon ship! Abandon ship! Ladies and children first".

Unsurprisingly enough, it seems that not enough people in that site have read Dune to feel the need to give you a comeback.

Otherwise, you are trying too hard on a joke of a site. If it was a decent forum or blog I might see where you are coming from, but you just chose the wrong place to use as an example.
#15 by gabezhul
2011-09-13 at 15:04
< report >I can't understand why you guys are so hung up on my Dune comparison. It is a classic, yes, but I find it totally overrated, and I do sincerely believe that MLA is a better, more tightly executed story. The only thing that I regret that I compared them as "science-fiction", and not as completely different literally works, but it was the first thing that popped into my mind when I tried to write a comparison between a VN and a popular novel.Last modified on 2011-09-13 at 15:05
#16 by overmage
2011-09-13 at 15:09
< report >Well, gabe, it's called "lack of social tact". Sure, YOU might not find that what you're doing is flamebaiting, but as a person who is out to convince others, you have to tailor your actions to suit their sensibilities, not the other way round. Politicians pander to people's perceptions, not the other way round. I'ma have to go with them there, just because you feel Dune is overrated, but clearly you are also aware this is not a common view shared by most people, so if you posted that on the forum, you were inviting hostile responses.

basically you have to be more tactful to convince people ~.~ don't like it, abandon humanity, because all humans including you have some degree of requirement of others to pander to their own sensibilities... :/

I mean honestly ok well that's just the worst kind of convincing ever, trying to tell somebody that becuase MLA is better than Dune they should play VNs is... well, it'll work in an alternate universe or dimension. :S It's like me going up to a forum full of people who doesn't watch ANIME and telling them that Gurren Lagann is better than The Dark Knight. Oh yeah. I'd be stupid to expect that this argument would convince them, more like convince them I was a nutjob.

You were lucky that the people on that site don't read Dune, otherwise you would have invited MASSIVE flamewars.Last modified on 2011-09-13 at 15:13
#17 by gabezhul
2011-09-13 at 15:19
< report >Yep, that would truly feel like a terrible mistake... if that was the reason why they lashed out at me. The thing is, they did not. The reason why I was told off as a lunatic was because I was defending an "abnormal medium"...

Cut the Dune-part already, everyone. This is not about that book and how it is worse or better than MLA. I said my opinion on that subject, you can disagree, but the problem here is that the public's default response to someone defending VNs is "Get lost you freak!", not that I was comparing it to an over-hyped book (personal opinion, personal opinion)...
#18 by unkind
2011-09-13 at 15:34
< report >I've ran into people (2) that seemingly look down on anyone doing anything Japanese related. Like... I just don't really get why. I mean these people are total fucking faggots and I never normally talk to them but goddamn. I never condemn people for what they're interested in.

The vast majority of people seem to offer a "whatever floats your boat" attitutude. Which is great. However...

The sub-human fucking retards on that website don't deserve to even read your posts man. Especially "sly justin" and "screaming mantis". These guys are straight up bros. That means they are so fucking stupid you shouldn't try to explain anything to them ever. And you also act as if the stupid ass "reviewers" are aware of good eroge, or just vns. I really doubt that they are.

I'm actually kind of pissed off after reading that. Fuck.Last modified on 2011-09-13 at 15:36
#19 by yorhel
2011-09-13 at 15:45
< report >I always get annoyed when someone comes with a serious reply to something that is supposed to be funny. I'd flame gabe all the way in those comments as well. Except I rarely visit such sites, let alone place a comment. >_>
#20 by pendelhaven
2011-09-13 at 16:01
< report >edit: actually, please don't advertise VNs. that last thing I want to happen is moralfags talking moralcrap about VNs. None of us here wants a Rapelay incident part 2.Last modified on 2011-09-13 at 16:01
#21 by overmage
2011-09-13 at 16:19
< report >I agree, shouldn't advertise VNs. At the least, if you're going to do it, not on a normal internet forums.
#22 by pendelhaven
2011-09-13 at 16:25
< report >I sounded like a big hypocrite back there (post 20). I mean, this IS vndb and yet I said not to mention them. see the contradiction there?
#23 by irx
2011-09-13 at 16:28
< report >So, even some weird geeks find your hobbies weird? :D

Anyway, I don't know a single vn which comes even close to real literature. Saya no Uta is probably not bad, still, its just an average short sci-fi story.
#24 by overmage
2011-09-13 at 18:03
< report >nothing popular comes close to 'real' literature. Only the classics hold up. take a random sci-fi or fantasy or mystery or thriller novel these days...

Even Tom Clancy is past his prime, all his new works are pretty shit.

VNs are a relatively new thing, while literature has been around for a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooong time (hundreds of years)... so give it time :P
#25 by irx
2011-09-13 at 21:28
< report >My point is, there aren't any vns that are actually good. For example, I watched Kino no Tabi not long ago, and can easily recommend it to people who are not into anime (and I did; and can think of many similar examples, though I don't watch much anime in the past decade). But I can't think of a single vn in a similar manner. Of course, the fact that 90% of them is basically hardcore porn (and another 9% is softcore) does not help. But even among the best... I don't know any. FSN? Dumb plot, characters are just generic anime stereotypes incarnated, drama on the level of overemotinal teens - don't get me wrong, I actually liked it for what it is, but come on.