Excellent visual novel

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#1 by selfex1led
2011-12-16 at 03:10
This "game" features excellent art style by Miel once again. There's a number of great photos, including the "peace" sign that she does when she's with two men. She's absolutely cute.

It is somewhat NTR because she is slightly taken at will but she is more than consensual later on. Hell, she even willingly has a baby with them while making out with other men!

I love it - very close to being perfect for me, except that there wasn't more (but I guess that's a good thing)
#2 by surferdude
2011-12-16 at 07:04
According to VNDB, this is nowhere near "excellent". Please stop opening threads for no good reason, or gabezhul will bite your head off.
#3 by koinodensetsu
2011-12-16 at 07:07
^because VNDB has the most factual opinions on the web. That's why we can't discuss VNs that don't reach the VNDB standards.
#4 by yorhel
2011-12-16 at 08:22
@surferdude: Hey, he's posting short mini-reviews about the games he played. That's already far better than most of the activity on these boards. >_>
#5 by yimw
2011-12-16 at 09:02
VNDB isn't the objective indicator of eroge quality. erogamescape is.
中央値 35
平均値 44

Well, there you have it.

Also something is still NTR if it's consensual.
#6 by aaeru
2011-12-17 at 08:16
wait... no.
no.no.nno.nonononono

EGS is not an objective indicator either. nothing is.

and also over 95%~ of all visual novels made is porn. Heck the medium evolved FROM porn then branched off it later. why is discussion about porn in basically a porn-based medium not welcome?


vndb... best community ever..
#7 by gabezhul
2011-12-17 at 09:26
Two things: first off, I kinda find it hilarious how I became the bogeyman of VNDB whose name is used to threaten others. :P

As for the actual "topic"... Surferdude's reaction left me a little puzzled, but I thought Koinodesetsu was just trolling around... Then Yimw came by, who is either trolled a trolling or took it seriously (I don't know which one is sillier), and then Aaeru took that post for face value, and... Honestly, I have no idea who's trolling and who's serious anymore... x_x
Please just stop here if you have nothing to add to the original, albeit somewhat silly thread...
#8 by stomp
2011-12-17 at 09:44
@16
A single vote is per definition subjective, but the average value of multiple votes is objective. Whether it measures quality or not depends on your opinion about the voters. I trust it that the Japanese players can judge the quality of a nukige. Therefore for me the EGS score is like yimw said an objective indicator of eroge quality.

"porn-based medium" was funny. 95% of all movies are porn. Therefore movies are a porn-based medium. And let's not forget manga.
#9 by moogy
2011-12-17 at 09:59
Food for thought:

Pretty much all of the (18+, all-ages scores on EGS should be completely disregarded because they're inflated by niwaka and idiots) games that hit 90 median or higher on EGS are worth playing, whereas...

If you exclude games with the tag "no sexual content" on vndb and sort by rating, the top 10 includes such masterpieces as Little Busters, G-Senjou no Maou, and Majikoi. Without excluding that tag (which works in this case, all-ages games are not nearly as inflated on vndb as they are on EGS) we get utter shit such as Ever17 hanging out in #3, the sheer hilarity of Umineko 1-4 at #7, and nonsense that only westerners care about such as Gyakuten Saiban and 999 hogging spots in the top 20.

EGS's 90+ median games (100+ votes, 18+ only, ignoring Sengoku Rance and Kichikuou Rance because they are also inflated) are: Subahibi, Kazokei, Kiminozo, Baldr Force, Parfait, Baldr Sky, Soukou Akki Muramasa, Cross Channel, Tsukihime, Fate/stay night, Muvluv Alternative, and YU-NO. All of these games are worth playing and are in some way important to the industry (with the possible exception of Subahibi for the latter descriptor).

Of particular note is how low some of these games feature on vndb - Cross Channel, a game which comes as close to being perfect as anything is likely to manage, is all the way down at #32 on vndb, right below Planetarian. Now, I shall not mince words - Planetarian is utter horse shit that only brainless Key zombies can enjoy or, in fact, tolerate on any level. The fact that it is rated above Cross Channel - and, indeed, the fact that it resides at #31 out of lord knows how many - alone is enough to conclude that vndb's userbase cannot be trusted.

Of course, perhaps the userbase's taste itself is not to blame - a translation of Cross Channel can indeed never capture the overwhelming beauty and poignancy of the original, so it is perhaps unsurprising that it receives laughable scores here. The issue at hand here, then, is a far greater one than simply westerners having lackluster taste; indeed, the issue we are dealing with is that the vast majority of eroge translations are utter dreck, verbal diarrhea bereft of any cohesion or aesthetic merit. Until this fundamental barrier can be overcome, it is my belief that we are obligated to ignore any form of criticism directed at the translated version of any eroge.

Let us look, then, at games without translations. Just going down the list... the only ones in the top 30 without any form of translation or votestuffing are Baldr Sky, Muramasa, and Subahibi... A familiar list of names, yes? (Ikusa Megami Zero also appears in the top 30, but I do not believe gameplay games other than Baldr Force and Baldr Sky should be rated alongside normal eroge in the first place, so I will ignore it.)

This provides evidence for both theories I have presented here - both that westerners fail to understand what constitutes a good eroge in the first place and that the (few) translations of actually decent games fail to convey their merits to the English audience.

In either case, vndb is not to be trusted in terms of scores, whereas EGS's userbase is at least composed of the original intended audience for the games, an audience with no language or value barriers that may hinder their appreciation of the works before them.
#10 by overmage
2011-12-17 at 10:37
Hmm, I can't provide commentary for most of what you've said due to a lack of knowledge of the genre, but I will add one thing: I'm learning Japanese right now, and I've increasingly come to realize that many translations destroy much of the original meaning. Re-playing some of the older translated VNs I've played back when I knew no Japanese at all, it becomes increasingly obvious that many things simply get lost in translation.

I will also add an argument that Sengoku Rance is worth playing, if for the music alone. And Rance. :D Nevermind if it's inflated!Last modified on 2011-12-17 at 10:42
#11 by gabezhul
2011-12-17 at 10:37
A few comments on this:
-I know it has became traditional to bash E17, but just because it's not the masterpiece the votes would suggest it doesn't mean it's automatically a piece of shit. As it was noted in a previous thread, it gets a ton of credit on nostalgia-value alone as this is one of the introductory VNs a lot of people played first and hold it dear. All I'm saying is that all this "E17 is overrated and is actually crap" thing doesn't really need the second half of that description... It's not a masterpiece, just "slightly" above average.

-Umineko at #7... I blame the episodic format. Lot's of people gave it really high votes because it actually made sense and was interesting at the beginning. You know, before 90% of the story was about the nonexistent magic-people and multicolored-logic-sword-fights.
As for 999, it's the same shit that always irks me: it has quantum-physics and a ton of pseudo-metaphysics, and because of that people believe it's clever, and thus force themselves into liking it, because they think it makes them look more clever (the same goes for the whole Infinity Series to some degree, BTW).
Finally, the Gyakuten Saiban games shouldn't even be in the database, but that's something I have been saying since day one...

-Cross Channel... I... didn't really like it. It was the same as Saya no Uta: I realized it was a great, concept-based story, but it just wasn't my kind of story. As such, since I cannot judge it objectively, I refrain from commenting on it any further.

-Translations are... Uhhh... I think the biggest problem here is that VNs are susceptible to the same kind of mistake some book-translations make, namely that they are trying so hard to give a literal translation that the wit and soul behind the work gets lost. I would still say that having a semi-decent translation is better than having none at all, but sadly they can really be blamed for the mis-appreciation of some VNs. I give this point to you.

-You say that the VNDB audience shouldn't be trusted, because they are not the original target audience? Excuse me, but isn't that the whole point here? That VNDB users are western players who mainly play translated games, such they give opinions mainly on translated games for the other westerners?
The VNDB community is not universally objective, I give you that, but isn't it the whole point that this DB is the western viewpoint on the VNs that the western audience can actually read?
#12 by bminorkey
2011-12-17 at 16:20
My opinion:

The English eroge reader has a very limited eroge selection and subsequently is not as critical as the Japanese reader. That the likes of Muramasa and Subahibi are in the top 30 tells a lot about their quality (but also about their relative exposure in the west), as the people who rated them are most likely a lot more critical than an overwhelming portion of the people who rated G-Senjou. VNDB's ratings are skewed in favour of games with an English translation because a significant subset of the readers of those games are English-only, thus are inevitably less critical than Japanese readers who have access to a much larger repertoire of eroge to compare the works they read with.

With this in mind it's easy to see why Cross Channel is unpopular. That its translation is not up to par is half of it. The other half, I think, is that CC is a game that inherently requires one to have a good understanding of trends and general direction in eroge in order to appreciate (or at the very least a certain "mature" understanding of the genre as a whole... this is truer here than in any other eroge I read). Western readers, understandably, do not have that kind of erudition. On the other hand Muv-Luv, which is good, centers on plot or action moreso than writing, and has had enough exposure to get people playing it, is currently the highest rated game by far.

The question of whether we should use VNDB or erogamescape for ratings is audience-dependent. But both of these are so influenced by popular trends and general rating noise that they should not be relied on at all as anything but a measure of popularity. The more important question of 'do westerners know what they're talking about [when they rave about...]' also naturally depends on the question of 'to whom?'. Umineko is probably one of the better titles for a western reader (with his limited exposure to eroge) and its ratings reflect that.

The more translations that are available, and the better translations they are, the more English and Japanese readers' impressions come to agree.Last modified on 2011-12-17 at 16:28
#13 by aaeru
2011-12-17 at 17:32
Therefore for me the EGS score is like yimw said an objective indicator of eroge quality.
well, the objective measurement for eroge quality always lies in language techniques. you have to compare very very closely, sentence by sentence, melody by melody, pixel by pixel, or technique by technique and argue how it is good and then usually compare how its peers performed in those same area. EGS scores is MORE objective. but i dont really think we can call
it 'Objective data'... imo


also your comparisons to movies or manga i think is a bit off to me imo. but that is not to say that i was 100% correct either. are porn video clips called movies? also the majority of manga consumers have theirs in a non-porn way i think..

but visual novels really really is its own thing. it rreally is porn - it is made as products for personal 'satisfaction'. that is its intended usage.
very few VNs gets made outside of that bracket. the non-18+ VNs we call them the exception rather than the rule.
#14 by surferdude
2011-12-17 at 17:38
The best way of getting people to discuss something is to tell them not to discuss it. It's all going according to keikaku. ;-)
#15 by pendelhaven
2011-12-17 at 17:46
moogy's post is win. seriously. even from the CC example, I came to realize that I already forgotten its whole story. I can blame the whole translation thing all day long, but blaming myself is just far more painful.

and it's really sad.

@12: that's society for you.

then again gabe made a strong point that vndb is for westerners. it just proves to show how different the western mind and the JP mind is. MLA is currently rated top 16 in vndb because it is nowhere near "nuance-critical" compared to CC (the problem most translators face). I don't know if that 16 is high or low, though.

EDIT: MLA is currently number 1 in rating. I was looking at the popularity. someone shoot me >_<

EDIT 2: Guess that tells just how nuance is important and how something being "nuance-critical" destroys translations. Ixrec is calling them "sololingual words", or words that is unique to only one language.Last modified on 2011-12-17 at 18:18
#16 by bminorkey
2011-12-17 at 18:01
@aaeru: I think there's something confining in the word 'porn'. Many movies have pointless sex or making out scenes in them because it's tasteful to the audience, but those scenes aren't really the point. Likewise there are eroge nowadays that you can't really call porn, though they have pornographic material. And then you have actual porn like v5755 here.
#17 by overmage
2011-12-17 at 20:22
@14: TL Note: Keikaku means plan

(if you didn't get it, you didn't get it. no, this isn't addressed to #14)Last modified on 2011-12-17 at 20:45
#18 by pendelhaven
2011-12-17 at 21:29
sorry overmage but I saw that too. just feigning ignorance. but i guess i failed to make you fail at it (double contrary, i know).
#19 by overmage
2011-12-17 at 22:55
eh? it wasn't addressed to you, just to anyone else who might be reading post #17 (actually not referring to #14 specifically), if that's what you meant :P

I'm confusing myself with the explanation...Last modified on 2011-12-17 at 22:59
#20 by thelasling
2011-12-18 at 00:16
I just love how a troll post became the place for such a great scale discussion
#21 by emmanuelvr
2011-12-18 at 07:20
>A game I like is higher in EGS so it is objective
No it isn't.

And after Cross+Channel and YU-NO I trust VNDB more than I do EGS. They are better positioned for my personal opinion (Though C+C should be lower, but I'm not gonna complain).

That doesn't mean they are objective, I am not deluded and self-important enough to think that. Just that if I want to check something, so far it reflects my opinion, and apparently the western opinion, better.

Regardless though, the issue about translation quality is important, but it has already been discussed and I'll skip it since I tend to agree to that.Last modified on 2011-12-18 at 07:24
#22 by soketsu
2011-12-18 at 08:21
...all standards are subjective.
#23 by selfex1led
2011-12-19 at 06:25
Wow. Look at these replies.

Thanks Yorhel!

I wrote these mini-reviews because I happened to be trying these games out and since there is a lack of information on these particular games, I figured that I could try contributing a little.

I'm overwhelmed about the games discussion regarding some EPIC sounding games that I haven't played before but it went WAY off topic.

Nonetheless, a very humorous outcome by the people of VNDB.

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