Sexual content tags

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#1 by abyssaleros
2012-08-11 at 14:23
< report >I think we need to clean up the sexual content tags, as they seem a bit disordered as they are.
Here is my first draft. I am sure it covers not everything and needs toning up.

First we could need a meta-tag for Sexual Positions:
Sexual Positions
Sex positions are positions which people may adopt during or for the purpose of sexual intercourse or other sexual activities. Sexual acts are generally described by the positions the participants adopt in order to perform those acts. Though sexual intercourse generally involves the sexual penetration of the body of one person by another, or simply direct stimulation of the sex organ of one by another, a sex position may not necessarily involve penetration or direct stimulation, and may be non-penetrative instead.
Child tags: g894, g1297 and g878

A meta-tag oral sex would be fine also:
Oral sex
Oral sex is the term given to genital stimulation by the mouth. It may be penetrative or non-penetrative, and may take place before, during, as, or following intercourse. It may also be performed simultaneously (for example, when one partner performs cunnilingus, while the other partner performs fellatio), or only one partner may perform upon the other; this creates a multitude of variations.
Child tags: g916, g1086, g1190, g894

A Sexual penetration meta-tag in corresondence to non-penetrative sex would be helpful too I think:
Sexual penetration
Sexual penetration is a sexual activity that involves the entry into a bodily orifice, such as the vagina, anus or mouth, with a body part or an object.
Child tags: g749, g834, g1295, g1216, g1245, g1423, g916, g1424
If the meta-tag oral sex would be present I guess this would suffice and its child tags need not to be listed here.

A paraphilia meta-tag maybe (not sure):
Paraphilia
Paraphilia (from Greek para παρά = beside and -philia φιλία = friendship, meaning love) is sexual arousal to objects, situations, or individuals that are not part of normative stimulation and that may cause distress or serious problems for the paraphiliac or those associated with them. Paraphilia involves sexual arousal and gratification, involving a sexual behavior that is atypical or extreme.
Child tags: g897, g689, g986, g1145, g1085

A meta-tag for homosexuality:
Homosexuality
Homosexuality is romantic or sexual attraction or behavior between members of the same sex or gender
Child tags: g82, g83, g1170


Further we need to seriously reform the BDSM tag!
In the current form it is unsatisfactory, as a great part of the tags which belong to Bondage & Discipline, Dominance & Submission, Sadism & Masochism’ are separated instead of beeing child tags and I believe that a few of the BDSM tags are in nature something else, like bondage e.g. or so.

So I opt for a meta-tag called «Bondage & Discipline, Dominance & Submission, Sadism & Masochism» maybe transform the g1117 to it as it is already present even if this tag is a bit messed up I believe, also we have to clarify the description a bit I guess or better create child tags for sadism, masochism (S&M) and dominance, submission (D&S).
Under the later one belongs g718.
Under this meta-tag we could sum up the child tags: g1307, g220, g1171, g1263, g1085 and g219.

I know it is a hard workl to add these (if consent arise) and it depends mainly on the shoulders of echomateria.
So I would like to know your opinions about my draft.
It surely could use some toning.

The structure would allow to see which tags are missing (e. g. wax play under BDSM) or which tags are awry and would have better alternatives already present.Last modified on 2012-08-18 at 15:48
#2 by abyssaleros
2012-08-18 at 00:52
< report >Just curious!
Was this post accidently ignored or does nobody care about this as everyone is contend to play Cero C games?
But at least it would have been courteous to inform me that my efforts in improving the tag system for adult novels is unwanted.
#3 by abyssaleros
2012-08-18 at 00:59
< report >Clarification (as it may be misleading): With meta-tags I mean tags which could not be tagged themself.
#4 by horseband
2012-08-18 at 01:31
< report >Well it's a change a mod has to implement, so I'm guessing most normal users don't care much either way.

I appreciate your efforts, though I'm not a mod sorry :/.
#5 by echomateria
2012-08-18 at 02:52
< report >I haven't had time to investigate this suggestion lately, due to the scale of it. Sorry for the wait. I'll comment on it when I get the time these days.
#6 by abyssaleros
2012-08-18 at 02:57
< report >No problem, was believing this thread was lost among the others as NO ONE has commented it so far;)
#7 by abyssaleros
2012-08-18 at 16:13
< report >So as you could see there is at least in my eyes some misunderstanding in the usage of the tag BDSM here.

The multilayered acronym BDSM stands for several phsyical and psychic partial aspects that are summarised under this topic, which are:

B & D - Bondage and Discipline
D & S - Dominance and Submission
S & M - Sadism and Masochism

As this model for the differentiation of these three aspects is nowadays common in literature it is just an attempt for a phenomenological division.
In individual occurrence of sexual preference this aspects often overlap.

Therefore my guess would be as described to create a meta-tag «Bondage & Discipline, Dominance & Submission, Sadism & Masochism», create three child tags, callled «Bondage & Discipline», «Dominance & Submission» and «Sadism & Masochism».

That seems to be a fitting matrix to further order the existing tags we allready have.

The main problem I see is that under BDSM are allready a lot of (139) tagged novels, so if we transform this to the meta-tag «Bondage & Discipline, Dominance & Submission, Sadism & Masochism» this could be no meta-tag which could not be tagged itself.
So we just shift the problem to some other position.
An awkward solution I see in shifting this 139 novels to the child-tag «Sadism & Masochism» as I think (just my opinion) that this is what most people have in mind when they tag BDSM to some novel, as Bondage has its own tag.

But honestly I ask you to write your opinions and suggestions about this.Last modified on 2012-08-18 at 16:31
#8 by gabezhul
2012-08-18 at 17:11
< report >In real short since I have to run: Honestly, I don't think your average reader would go that deep into the sub-divisions of BDSM, not to mention in most cases it would be somewhat redundant. BDSM became a commonly used acronym because 99% of the time the three parts that make it up show up at the same time, aka sadism almost always comes with dominance and discipline almost always comes with submission, etc. Because of this you would most likely need to use all the child-tags on most BDSM-centric titles (aka, the ones the tag is usually used for), so why make things more complicated by using three tags to convey the same information one tag already does?

However, for the rare cases where one of the element are there but not the others (say, only have S&M but without any bondage), I would actually endorse the idea of adding the three aforementioned tags as the child-tags for BDSM, and thus they could be used to pinpoint these titles. Otherwise though, a complete re-haul of the BDSM tag would be an overkill and arguably just complicate things without any real benefit.ű

P.S.: Also, when I'm looking for BDSM, I'm not looking for the S&M part but because bondage-gears are hot. Just sayin'. :P

P.P.S.: Also just checked out your first post again about the child tags. Mostly agreed, except for three:
-Inflation: Not necessarily BDSM, as it can often happen in monster-rape and tentacle games (because of obvious reasons).
-Bukkake: Also not necessarily BDSM. It's a rather extreme act, but it often happens in non-BDSM titles. Hell, it even happens in the tames vanilla H-scenes sometimes!
-Sexual Slavery: I would say that this tag is in a league of its own and has little to do with BDSM. Sure, most of these stories have the dominance-aspect, but Sexual slavery is more of a content-tag describing the plot rather than a fetish-tag like BDSM.
That's all.
#9 by abyssaleros
2012-08-18 at 17:23
< report >Honestly I see akind problems to that as you, but the main problem is that the bondage tag is separated from BDSM and there is no tag for «D & S - Dominance and Submission». Okay there is the sexual slavery tag, but this tag is separted from BDSM again.

And in as much there are overlappings as I have written, not every B&D or D&S scenario/lover/devotee indulges into S&M as this is often accompanied by pain & suffering and would have to be clearly separated from S&M.

Maybe a good way would be to transform the sexual slavery tag to «D & S - Dominance and Submission» and give sexual slavery as an alias.Last modified on 2012-08-18 at 17:26
#10 by abyssaleros
2012-08-18 at 17:32
< report >Most tags are multilayered but bukkake is clearly a form of male dominance towards a woman or towards another male for homoerotics, while the receiving of bukkake is clearly a form of submission by the female.
Go ask some women about this, most 'normal' women would say this is a degrading act and they are not that submissive to accept one.

PS Same is with a 'normal' face-shot.Last modified on 2012-08-18 at 17:41
#11 by gabezhul
2012-08-18 at 18:28
< report >You are right there, the bondage tag is redundant and should be put under, or even merged into BDSM (I would say probably as an alias, as for the layman BDSM and bondage is pretty much synonymous).

The problem with Sexual Slavery is, as I have already pointed out, is that it's more about the scenario than the sexual acts in said scenario. As such it just wouldn't really feel right to call it DS (offtopic: I just imagined an ad for the new Nintendo 3Dominance&Submission handheld... and somehow it made sense because it's Nintendo. Weird... -.-). The core of the problem here, once again, that one is a content-tag that tells you what kind of story you are going to read while the other is a fetish-tag that tells you what kind of H-scenes you can expect. Changing the tag like that would make it lose some very important subtext which is just counterintuitive.

As for bukkake, the problem is that, as I said, it's a relatively extreme sexual act but it's also very common in Japanese H-media, and thus completely vanilla and non-BDSM related H-scenes can have it as well. In fact, in our VN context I would dare to say that 90% of bukkakes have absolutely no BDSM aspects.
Also, I believe Bukkake is a fetish in and of itself. In fact, if I would REALLY want to put it under something, it would be WAM.

P.S.: Now I feel sad that I not only know these sexual terms but I know them well enough to argue about them... I need a hug. T_T
#12 by abyssaleros
2012-08-18 at 18:43
< report >I am not really understanding your pointing out of the difference between scenario and fetish tag, as far as I know this distinction is not a part of the tag system.

Tags > Theme > Sexual Content > Darker Sexual Contents > Sexual Slavery
Tags > Theme > Sexual Content > Sexual Content by Activity > BDSM

Seems to be the same for me.
You are just postulating that Sexual Slavery is a scenary tag and BDSM a fetish tag, but both could be vice versa, as it is not defined in their descriptions.
That shows only your handling of these tags but not the general usage of them or their definition.
#13 by gabezhul
2012-08-18 at 18:58
< report >Oooookay, I don't really get your point there. How can BDSM be a scenario tag? I get the point that Sexual Slavery "could" be a fetish, and in that context it really would fall under a sort of BDSM categorization, but not the other way around. In short, I see how Sexual Slavery can be seen as a form of BDSM, but I still think that the tag carries waaaaaaay more information than D&S. After all, the sex-slave training/related VNs that are tagged with it usually have a wide array of assorted themes (rape, blackmail, sexual training, possibly NTR, etc.) that are clearly implied by Sexual Slavery but are completely missing from D&S. Changing the tag would remove these associations, and thus I'm against the notion of changing the tag.

Summa summarum: Separate D&S tag? Okay. Changing Sexual Slavery into it? Big no.
#14 by abyssaleros
2012-08-18 at 19:00
< report >Just suggestions not laws! :)
#15 by gabezhul
2012-08-18 at 19:01
< report >Okay, just trying to make my point come across. :PLast modified on 2012-08-18 at 19:02
#16 by abyssaleros
2012-08-18 at 19:18
< report >The point is this are all sexual content tags, which show the sexual contents you as a reader will expierence while reading this novel nothing more and nothing less.
Which is either a good thing or a bad thing.
The concept of scenario tags and fetish tags is although obvious not part of them.

So this confusion about sexual content tags especially the BDSM tag is what has driven my to try a draft in reforming them to something better and as I know that this is just my personal insight into these stuffs I had asked for discussion.

I think it would make not much of a sense to distinguish between scenario tags and fetish tags, as this would bring arguments to the table what a fetish is and what not.
As an example a common blowjob is just a blowjob not a scenario and not a fetish, just some sexual content you will expierence while reading, same is with group sex or rape.
The story could be about a vile gang rape some woman suffers and her traumatical handling of this expierence with all consequences so it would be more or less a scenario tag, or the story is full of senseless gang rapes so it would be a fetish tag.
Both cases are awkward in itselfs, it is better to regard the gang rape just as a tag which shows the reader that this sexual content is present.
If it would be the former the novel would bear the sexual content tag, the later would bear the nukige tag, as although nukiges can have sincere stories most are just what they are: masturbation helpers.Last modified on 2012-08-18 at 19:21
#17 by gabezhul
2012-08-18 at 19:32
< report >I have to go now, but all I ask is for you to actually go and check out the Wikipedia link in g219. That's a enormous amount of subtext that would be lost, and then we haven't even talked about the trope itself!

Also, please don't be hung up on the semantics of scenario- and fetish-tags, I only brought that up because I wanted to avoid writing a wall of text about the nuances between something as multicolored as Sexual Slavery and a much simpler and to-the-point D&S.
#18 by abyssaleros
2012-08-18 at 19:49
< report >I know the text of sexual slavery on wikipedia but this is not what most novels are about or have as content which bear this tag, they are mainly and I know it as I read them (^^) of D&S as the rape transforms mostly to a more or less semi-consensual form.

調教 [choukyou] means to teach an animal to do something or to behave correctly.

At any rate, when it comes to visual novels or hentai, 調教 [choukyou] has an erotical connotation more or less, 彼女を調教する [I will train her] is at least for me erotical.

No matter how brutal the scenario looks, the submissive is going to enjoy having such a “training.” In the end the submissive shall come to an orgasm.
See for that the faces, that is what’s called イキ顔 [ikigao] or アクメ顔 [acmegao].
Later is the mysterious acme!

This is what most nukige novels are about: Not sexual slavery in its perverse and vile form of its real life counterpart.
Therefore the link to wikipedia is at least in my eyes misleading, as these novels are not about some disturbing real life shit, but on sexual fantasy.

I regard and used the tag for B&S in novels as there is nothing else to tag them accordingly and I believe most nukige fans do the same.Last modified on 2012-08-18 at 19:51

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