Traits

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#2251 by zakashi
2020-08-11 at 20:47
< report >Well, I searched in Jisho dictionary for the word Netorare, and it said it means "cuckold":link
But also, in another random site, it said "cuckold" is a loose translation, and it actually means "to be taken off":link
I searched also for the word "netori", it is the noun for the verb "netoru", which means "steals another's spouse/love":link

So, I don't think it makes sense to add relatives and friends, only lovers/spouses.

Also I think it will be better to change the Netorare(they are the stolen SO) to Netori(they are the stolen SO), since these characters are not being cheated on, it makes more sense, NTR might be an ambiguous initials to both "Netori" and "Netorare".
#2252 by beliar
2020-08-11 at 20:55
< report >
Also I think it will be better to change the Netorare(they are the stolen SO) to Netori(they are the stolen SO)
Have you been following the discussion? It's the whole point that we are changing the traits so that Netorare refers to the stolen SO.

Cuckold is a shit translation and shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence as Netorare.

So, I don't think it makes sense to add relatives and friends, only lovers/spouses.
In Netorare the relatives and friends are included, as long as the character feels jealousy regarding them being defiled/stolen. Remember, Netorare does not equal cheating. The close relatives are already included in the description and have been for a long time.Last modified on 2020-08-11 at 20:56
#2253 by skorpiondeath
2020-08-11 at 21:16
< report >
Skorpy
yeahhh friends again! ;D

have you given any thought to the Big Ass conundrum?
Before reading this beware I truly don't know where I am going now...
I did and actually the only objective stuff I found around the internet is that ass should be 2.5 size the dimension of the head like user shinytentacool already suggested here t14486.10
Exhentai has the same definition upon tagging galleries, and they use a solid line when the tag fully applies or a dotted line when there is some degree of big ass (similar to our tag point system).
The true problem is:
"there is not an objective way to do this"
since most of the characters in standing positions or tachie seems to have a normal ass or at least some curvy figures but that's all, but when in doggy sexual position ass POV that ass seeems bigger than the sun... and head is sized as a peanut.
Obviously rewrite the trait should be a must and forcing users to follow those rules:
- ass should be 2.5 size the dimension of the head
- ass should be measured in the standing position

seems the only logical thing to do. But and I'm already hearing warfoki Jedi vision right in front of me arguing about:
- WTF is 0.5 in 2.5?? It's already hard to determine x2 why on the fucking planet should we consider 0.5 for? Stepping on nails and burning coals will come next...
- I sob-jectively told you to always think about tag misuse, was lesson n°1 were you listening or jerking off as you always do?
- you sworn an oath to avoid tag misuse and I accostumed your approval request just because I trusted you.... now sashey away

The next thing that comes to my mind and saddens me a bit is that by the time user u57782 proposed the trait we always almost implicitly agreed on how to use it but now is constantly being used to find less big butts. To make a comparison to tits big ass was used to find asses in the huge/gigantic breast degree and not in the big breast degree, that's because if that was the case the trait would just have included a fucking lot of asses and thus ruining is original meaning that is to find really big asses!
Yeah I'm reapeating myself...big, but Skorpy tells us how much big is big....big? Yeah obviously

Thing is some of the other asses that were tagged recently were not that big and more in the league of real life juicy curvy asses and that sadly applies to a fuckalot of characters...just checking Big Ass Heroine examples you can see that the "big" in big ass was meant to originally be something really big...sadly description doesn't help and examples are basically all in ass POV, making it hard do determine the size since it feels like being on one of those movies where you are in a castle eating dinner with a noble and he is basically on the opposite side of the table eating miles away from you.
Sadly It could be fine if this was a image tagging site like gelbooru but we are not.Last modified on 2020-08-11 at 22:04
#2254 by zakashi
2020-08-11 at 21:21
< report >Oh yeah, I didn't see the huge comment of mrkew explaining all the grammar, pardon me.

Welp, how exactly does it happen for a character to have his friend or relative stolen from him?

Your trait description is not clear in this regard, I mean, people can feel jealous for a lot of things, one thing that comes to my mind now is a father who feels his daugther is being "stolen" from him because she is growing up and starting to be independent from "papa" and all that stuff, does it still apply? But the are probably more examples, like a guy thinking his friend is being "stolen" from him when he/she (the friend) finds another friend and starts spending more time with him/her.

I think your approach is really being distant from what the otaku community thinks of NTR, and all the meanings I see even in the online dictionaries are about stealing a spouse/lover.Last modified on 2020-08-11 at 21:23
#2255 by skorpiondeath
2020-08-11 at 21:25
< report >
Your trait description is not clear in this regard, I mean, people can feel jealous for a lot of things, one thing that comes to my mind now is a father who feels his daugther is being "stolen" from him because she is growing up and starting to be independent from "papa" and all that stuff, does it still apply?
@zakashi: You have an example in Nozokibeya. It always refers to sexual jelousy. And again I can point you out to abysalleros explaination: t8417

Sadly I want to point out that on the poll 4 people against 4 people on the subject. This tells you there is not enough active thinking and understanding of the fetish. But the main question is are you a Netorare fan? Because some people don't truly get the fetish and so they get confused and in reaction they confuse the community.Last modified on 2020-08-11 at 21:34
#2256 by zakashi
2020-08-11 at 21:31
< report >Okay I'm sorry, the trait description is good after I read again :D
I mean, it says "romantic partner" at first but then say "friend/relatives" after, I don't know how a person who doesn't know about NTR would understand that but whatever.Last modified on 2020-08-11 at 21:33
#2257 by beliar
2020-08-11 at 21:54
< report >@zakashi: I have made some changes to the descriptions to make it immediately clear which cases the traits apply to and which they don't.

@skorpy: I agree with everything you have said. There is a huge separation how artists draw sprites and CGs. We mostly determine breast sizes based on the sprites, which is relatively easy, as they are facing forward. However, the backsides of sprites are mostly unseen, and the artistic separation is even worse, as characters who appear to be pretty slim in their sprite form end up having huge booties in CGs.

I think we may have to rework the trait as "Huge Ass" and only apply it to the characters who have really huge booties. We might even have to use your 2.5 determinant :-) Currently the trait is very diluted and could apply to majority of characters.
#2258 by gvbn
2020-08-12 at 13:34
< report >Add "revolver" as an alias for Handgun
#2259 by beliar
2020-08-12 at 16:26
< report >The NTR overhaul has been implemented. Out of the three traits Netori (steals the SO), Netori (their SO is stolen) and Netorare (they are the stolen SO), the last one is currently empty. It needs to be filled *hint hint nudge nudge*
I also thought of creating an umbrella trait called NTR, to put all three traits + netorase under it, but as the traits are spread over Engages in/Subject of categories, that is not very feasible. Though the idea is worth thinking about for Tags.
#2260 by barfboy
2020-08-13 at 03:52
< report >Uh, I would really prefer if it was Netori (steals the SO) as you have it listed, then Netorare (Their SO is stolen) and Netori (they are the stolen SO).

The way Netorare is typically used I feel the word should apply to the partner who's significant other is stolen not to the person who is stolen. It makes sense, it's a preference thing.Last modified on 2020-08-13 at 03:53
#2261 by ppp
2020-08-13 at 13:21
< report >Just a quick question, lets say the heroine engages in infidelity with the protagonist, but the SO of that heroine is never addressed regarding the whole thing, do we still use the Netorare/Netori trait even though the SO never finds out about the relationship or is never shown to be jealous of events?
#2262 by beliar
2020-08-13 at 17:44
< report >No, it's not Netorare - it's just basic Infidelity. For it to be netorare, the presence of the character who loses their SO is absolutely necessary, usually with them having POV scenes. That character either starts suspecting that their SO is cheating on them, which torments them, or they find out and are crushed and humiliated.

I think it's possible but rare to have ntr without the character finding out about the cheating if he ends up being humiliated without knowing about it. In such cases the character's jealousy is substituted with audience's jealousy.
#2263 by ppp
2020-08-13 at 20:19
< report >@beliar i have seen multiple characters who tagged in the new Netorare and netori trait where their relationship in game is never found out by their significant other.
#2264 by skorpiondeath
2020-08-13 at 20:27
< report >@ppp can you point out the games here? so maybe people can express their opinions on them. Also I hope we are not entering a spree of forcefully addiing Netorare to every character in the DB. There are cases where is just infidelity.
#2265 by ppp
2020-08-13 at 20:33
< report >link
link
link
As far as i know, the husbands in these games never find out about their wives infidelity. Im not particularly fond of ntr games so i cannot speak for that many games, but these are just a few that i noticed. I think there are more, i m gonna try to find them.
#2266 by mrkew
2020-08-13 at 21:39
< report >1. The traits were added based on the existing traits on their husbands.
2. You are pointing out netori games. Netori as a genre has a completely different point than netorare - not jealousy from the point of the protagonist or the audience, but a sense of conquest of someone else's possession. The games are tagged heavily as netori both here and on the sites they are sold on.
#2267 by ppp
2020-08-13 at 21:45
< report >I see, it just did not make sense to me based on the description of the traits since it says "Netori/Netorare is more than a simple act of infidelity", what would the difference be between the infidelity trait and the netori trait then? In addition, in these cases if the heroines are the "subject of Netorare", does that not imply that their SO feels some sort of jealousy? I am genuinely curious.Last modified on 2020-08-13 at 21:55
#2268 by skorpiondeath
2020-08-13 at 22:00
< report >@ppp: just check all the previous posts about netorare/netori discussion you'll get the difference between netori and infidelity
#2269 by ppp
2020-08-13 at 22:26
< report >@skorpiondeath I see, I think i got the gist of it but like you said in #2215 "Huband/Wife relationship: yes infidelity then:
-- A) jelousy is shown by the husband than is also infidelity + netorare for the wife
-- B) there no jelousy shown or husband is unaware then is just infidelity" Does option B not apply to the characters i linked above? I am not opposed to the netori trait applied to the game and protagonist, just the "subject of netorare" trait for heroine i dont get. I apologize if I am confusing you, It was quite a bit to read so I dont think I picked up on everything, but I just want to understand the reasoning. Thanks.Last modified on 2020-08-13 at 22:36
#2270 by mrkew
2020-08-13 at 22:49
< report >
I am not opposed to the netori trait applied to the game and protagonist, just the "subject of netorare" trait for heroine i dont get.
Where there's netori there must be netorare. They are 2 sides of the same coin. MC can't steal without something being stolen.
#2271 by skorpiondeath
2020-08-14 at 00:22
< report >@ppp: that particular example was to emphasize the difference between netorare and infidelity. Since netorare is not exclusive of "wife/husband" relationship being the fetishization of sexual jealousy it could apply even to other kinds of relationship like for example "Aunt/Nephew", "Father/Daughter", etc... in those cases you cannot say a Daugher has commited infidelity towards her father since it doesn't make sense. So infidelity doesn't cover the whole spectrum of netorare.
Since netori is just the act of stealing someone and since you could steal a daughter from her father it's just more then infidelity.

Even if the majority of netorare VNs are from the loser protagonist POV (the one getting his love stolen) there are a lot of them that are in the POV of the theft. For those VN where we live the feelings of the protagonist that got his love stolen it's essential that he has doubts, jealousy and finds out about the actual stealing otherwise the audience won't get to live all the negative aspects of it.
But for those VN from the theft POV as mrkew pointed out we got to experience the thinking and feelings of the guy stealing someone, in those cases the netorare trait is just to point out which character was stolen and not that you'll experience netorare negative aspects of it and this for traits it's perfectly fine imo.

For tags the thing is a little bit different since they define what fetish you are gonna find in the VN and so it would be better to tag a netori VN only as Netori while a netorare VN as netorare, even if obvioulsy both should happen as actions (if something get stolen means someone stole it), you presumibly won't experience both of them as a spectator and thus as a fetish during the course of the VN.
Making that tag/trait distinction is essential imo, since tags should describe what kind of fetish the reader will find in the VN, while traits describe actions happening during the course of the VN.
For example in tags we got "Netorare A/B/C" distinction we don't have in traits. So in the end having Netori/Netorare decoupled as tags just help users to find the right VN, but there isn't such need for traits.Last modified on 2020-08-14 at 00:37
#2272 by ppp
2020-08-14 at 00:48
< report >
... in those cases the netorare trait is just to point out which character was stolen and not that you'll experience netorare negative aspects of it and this for traits it's perfectly fine imo.
Hmm i see what you are saying. I think this can be confusing for someone searching results based on traits since subject of "netorare" implies something they may not find...potentially? maybe? i don't know and i cant speak for everyone but either way thank you for clarifying :)
#2273 by skorpiondeath
2020-08-14 at 00:53
< report >@ppp: it get messy if you don't search correctly. If searching by traits you'll need to search for Netori (their SO is stolen) applied to protagonists. Otherwise just search for tags.

since subject of "netorare" implies something they may not find...potentially?
Netorare means getting stolen so if a character has that trait means that action happens during the course of the VN but it doesn't mean you are going to live it from that character POV. Just need to separate actions/traits from fetishes/tags.Last modified on 2020-08-14 at 00:55
#2274 by ppp
2020-08-14 at 01:11
< report >I understand what you're saying, i just thought it would be confusing since there are netori games where the SO of the heroine shows jealousy and there's no way to distinguish that with this trait, but i understand that thats not the purpose of this trait and it probably gets a bit too messy.Last modified on 2020-08-14 at 01:24
#2275 by barfboy
2020-08-14 at 15:30
< report >Fur color (such as for true cats and dogs) treated as hair color? For example Admiral
Should we add hair color traits to such characters?