Traits

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#2476 by barfboy
2021-04-09 at 17:46
< report >Can Koukai Sex and 公開セックス be added as aliases to Sex in Front of an Audience
#2477 by tapestree
2021-04-10 at 02:55
< report >beliar: Have you been in private conversation with other staff about these traits (Dominant Partner/Submissive Partner/Sadist/Masochist)? It's just that it's been about a week since my last post, and I wasn't sure if you planned to reply. Sorry to bother you.

To refresh your memory, I've tried to explain why I think the traits called Sadist/Masochist should be refactored into Sexually Dominant/Submissive. I've quoted the DSM (which is one objective English definition), focused on the history of these terms from a practical medical standpoint, and talked about what they're openly understood to mean in Japanese culture. In response, you said that "Sadism/Masochism has nothing to do with Submission/Dominance" and "Sadism/Masochism is about application of pain to spice the sexual acts" and also said that you "disagree" with the Japanese definition.

But later on, you acknowledged that bondage and humiliation should be part of the definition of sadist/masochist. To re-quote you:

I'll give you that I did have the intention to include the practices of bondage and humiliation into the S/M descriptions, but couldn't get the wording right. 'Torture' is indeed not the best word to use, and I would probably go for 'anguish'. That said, the description can still be tinkered with.

With this, I think you've started to touch upon the fact that the true definition of sadist/masochist is inherently broad. It's because of this inherent broadness that I wanted to choose a different, more obviously broad primary trait name.

Now then, part of the difference in our views relates to the multiple possible definitions of submissive/dominant, and whether VNDB should utilize it as a word that's synonymous with top/bottom (which is your preference, as well as the current usage in the Submissive Protagonist tag and Dominant/Submissive Partner traits) or as a description of a personality type/inclination (which is my preference, that I believe helps solve the issues with the Sadist/Masochist tags' name).

At this point, I've decided that it'd be best for me to show you examples of what I think my proposed refactored traits would look like. That way, you can see for yourself that the way I've utilized the words submissive/dominant is broad, yet effective and eliminates ambiguity. Take a look:

Trait 1: Sexually Submissive
Note: Formerly called Masochist, so it should inherit those characters. However, characters who purely have a pain fetish with no submissive inclinations will need to be removed (see trait 3).
Parent trait: Role (same as current). Flagged as sexual (same as current) [I originally wanted to move it under Personality, but upon further consideration, I decided it would best to put it next to Homosexual, because they are more functionally similar.]
Aliases: Masochist, Mazo, Do-M, Masochism
Description:
This character identifies as someone who is sexually aroused by the unpleasant, forceful, controlling, or humiliating elements of acts that are performed upon them.

This trait includes characters who express this inclination both inside and outside of sex scenes. For example, comedic side characters who aren't necessarily sexually involved may identify as sexually submissive. Example: link

In Japanese, the term for this is "M", "Do-M" (ドM), "masochist" (マゾヒスト), "maso" (マゾ), or higyaku seiaisha (被虐性愛者).

The opposite of this trait is Sexually Dominant but the two traits not mutually exclusive.

Not to be confused with Bottom which refers to a kind of relationship status.

Trait 2: Sexually Dominant
Parent trait: Role (same as current). Flagged as sexual (same as current)
Aliases: Sadist, Sado, Do-S, Sadism
Note: Formerly called Sadist, so it should inherit those characters.
Description:
This character identifies as someone who is sexually aroused by the unpleasant, forceful, controlling, or humiliating elements of acts which they perform upon others.

In Japanese, the term for this is "S" "Do-S" (ドS) "sadist" (サディスト) "sado" (サド) or kagyaku seiaisha (加虐性愛者).

Characters with a personality which enjoys teasing others to an exaggerated extent, usually comedically, are sometime called "sadistic" within the story itself, and even express tropes associated with BDSM, like pulling out a whip as a prop. However, these characters are not necessarily truly sexually dominant, in which case this trait does not apply to them.

The opposite of this trait is Sexually Submissive but the two traits not mutually exclusive.

Not to be confused with Top which refers to a kind of relationship status.

Trait 3: Pain Fetish (new)
Note: I'm defining this separate trait for the sake of showing that there are no holes in what the trait DB accounts for.
Parent trait: Engages in (Sexual). Flagged as sexual (maybe that's automatic anyway)
Aliases: Masochism, Sadism, Masochist, Sadist, Sadomasochism
Description:
This character has a fetish for physical pain, or engages in the use of pain as a sexual stimulant. Pain is known to be capable of causing the brain to release endorphins.

Trait 4: Top
Note: This is the trait currently called Dominant Partner.
Parent trait: Role (same as current). Flagged as sexual (same as current)
Aliases: Seme, Domme, Dominant [I explained in t3314.2471 why I want to ditch the word "partner".]
Description:
[I don't want to nitpick about trying to make the word "top" more prevalent in the description, so what beliar put in t3314.2472 is fine already--in fact, it's quite good. Except, change the phrase "regarding their sexual relationship(s)" to "in the sex acts between them and another character". A character can be the top in one relationship, and the bottom in another, like if one slave is responsible for disciplining another. Deeper explanation in the trait 6 section.]

Trait 5: Bottom
Note: This is the trait currently called Submissive Partner.
Parent trait: Role (same as current). Flagged as sexual (same as current)
Aliases: Uke, Submissive
Description:
[Like with Top, change "regarding their sexual relationship(s)" to "in the sex acts between them and another character".]

Trait 6: Switch
Note: No changes to its current state are necessarily. Just wanted to say that clearly. ...It's worth pointing out that while Top and Bottom's descriptions refer to any type of sexual relationship, Switch is defined as a consensual BDSM term. That's why I had to reword that one phrase in the Top and Bottom descriptions to make it less broad; it's possible for a character to be a top over their lover, and a bottom because they were later kidnapped and raped by a psychopath, but that doesn't make them a switch. Alternatively, you can leave the descriptions of Top/Bottom as-is, but you'd need to broaden Switch's description a lot, to the point it no longer resembles the BDSM term it originated from, in which case you might as well just apply both Top and Bottom instead anyway.

The description of Submissive Protagonist wouldn't necessarily need to be changed, since the way it's phrased "takes a sexually submissive role" feels like it's more or less in line with what I expect. And character tags are supposed to be used in cases where the character aspect is broadly relevant to the VN, so it'd be pointless to tag a submissive protagonist and not have them be a bottom anyway.

In the process of writing out these trait descriptions, I made one notable major change to my initial concepts: after looking over all the cases where a character was called a sadist just for having a teasing/mischievous personality, I realized that in almost every case, it was just a form of bluster, and while they'd occasionally express it in sex scenes, they enjoyed non-dominant acts just as much or even more. Therefore, I specifically excluded this type of "sadist" from the description of Sexually Dominant. I think that's the only choice which makes sense...

So there you have it. *whew* Please tell me what you think of all this. I apologize if you're busy (feel free to refer me to another trait mod, though I'd prefer to discuss this with you since you understand these issues fairly well).
#2478 by mrkew
2021-04-17 at 15:40
< report >Please deny Okami and instead add it as alias to Inn Manager. Didn't look for it under white-collar worker.
#2479 by skorpiondeath
2021-04-17 at 19:01
< report >@mrkew: done
#2480 by ninius
2021-04-21 at 17:23
< report >Could you make a "Rodent" trait and put Mouse and Squirrel as child traits? There are some rat characters too but I think there isn't enough of them to make a trait for it alone. Just a suggestion..

Edit: I made it in the trait queue, I put Pika as an alias by a mistake. It should be removed from there.Last modified on 2021-04-21 at 17:34
#2481 by skorpiondeath
2021-04-22 at 10:25
< report >@ninius: done
#2482 by gvbn
2021-04-22 at 18:31
< report >Asymetrical Sidehair asymmetrical is spelled with 2 m's
#2483 by darkness-weaver
2021-04-24 at 08:11
< report >Hello, I'd like to add the Wacchi pronoun. This isn't the first time I hear a character using this pronoun in VNs. But I do remember not finding it on the list of VNDB's traits when adding or editing characters.
Here's an example of a character using the Wachiki/Wacchi pronoun. (Sora no Tsukurikata -Under the Same Sky, Over the Rainbow-)Last modified on 2021-04-24 at 08:13
#2484 by mrkew
2021-04-24 at 08:16
< report >#2483 Why didn't you put wacchi as the main one?
#2485 by fllthdcrb
2021-04-24 at 11:52
< report >#2484 Not sure what you mean by that. One can't apply a trait that's not already in the system, right?

#2483 But anyway, you as a normal user can create it by browsing to the appropriate parent trait and using "Create child trait", then entering the info (as long as you have a good enough understanding). A moderator must still approve it before it can be used, of course, which may take a little while.
#2486 by mrkew
2021-04-24 at 11:58
< report >#2485 he created it already hence my comment about wacchi being only used as alias in the suggested trait
#2487 by skorpiondeath
2021-04-24 at 12:20
< report >Do you guys want me to replace an put "Wacchi" as the main name?
#2488 by mrkew
2021-04-24 at 12:55
< report >I mean, I'm against there being alias completely. Looking at the personal pronoun list on wiki link, it has wachiki/achiki/achishi in one and wacchi completely separately. I know they are all "prostitute pronouns", but I've only really encountered wacchi and it would be weird to apply it to a character and see the trait say something completely different because of aliases.
#2489 by fllthdcrb
2021-04-24 at 15:09
< report >Right. You can't use an alias as a name for another trait. Perhaps darkness-weaver didn't realize that?

I agree that aliases that are different personal pronouns don't make much sense, even if they are closely associated. I think an alias for, say, the same word in kana or kanji is okay, though. Incidentally, I notice Boku has alias "Bokukko", Ore has "Orekko", etc.; is that really the same thing?Last modified on 2021-04-24 at 15:12
#2490 by draconyan
2021-04-24 at 16:34
< report >@2489: "bokukko" and "orekko" are terms to indicate a girl who uses respectively "boku" or "ore" as pronouns, since it's not common. It makes sense for them to be aliases like it is now.
#2491 by goldgrande
2021-04-25 at 03:10
< report >Is there a trait for the boob curtains/flaps? Examples Elze Eve Dianta and Yumegasaki Mako or is it not widespread?

Is reverse bunny girl enough of a thing to get its own trait?
#2492 by lunaterra
2021-04-27 at 04:08
< report >Kigurumi would make more sense as a subtrait of Over Body Clothing, not Engages in -> Disguise.
#2493 by sakurakoi
2021-04-27 at 14:01
< report >
"boku" or "ore" as pronouns, since it's not common.
No, it is very common (420 female characters who are trait'd with 'Boku', 87 who are 'Ore') but since one can filter by sex, it does not need a 'gendered-distinction' (like a lot of things). Something is not common enough when one can not even name a dozen, however over 80 sure would suffice if it were not for the sex.

Though even I'd say a dozen, one was apparently enough for Achishi which is nearly 2 years old now... and the only character defies the definition, thrice.
#2494 by mrkew
2021-04-27 at 16:49
< report >#2493 I recommend looking up the definition of common. Thanks to new glorious advanced search, I looked up that in my VN list there are 1487 female characters, 28 of which use boku. That's not even 2%.
#2495 by mrkew
2021-05-01 at 15:39
< report >Maybe you could update description in Armpit Sex and Armpit Sex to clarify which partner is traditionally performing and which one is receiving. I looked through the list of characters and subject of is split half-half male/female.
#2496 by darkness-weaver
2021-05-02 at 16:22
< report >#2488 by mrkew
I mean, I'm against there being alias completely. Looking at the personal pronoun list on wiki link, it has wachiki/achiki/achishi in one and wacchi completely separately. I know they are all "prostitute pronouns", but I've only really encountered wacchi and it would be weird to apply it to a character and see the trait say something completely different because of aliases.

I believe you are right. Wacchi should be separated from the other ones as they all occur so rarely in VNs. Please forgive me for not doing a deeper research about the pronoun.

#2487 by skorpiondeath
Do you guys want me to replace an put "Wacchi" as the main name?
Yes, please.
#2497 by skorpiondeath
2021-05-02 at 16:39
< report >@mrkew: Armpit Sex it's treated like every other Non-Penetrative sexual act. The one thrusting the penis is Subject of and the one using the armpit Engages in.

@darkness-weaver: Should I separate Wacchi and Wachiki by creating a separate trait for Wacchi? Or do you want me to get rid of Wachiki? If I got it right you guys don't want Wachiki and Wacchi to be in the same trait one alias of the other.
#2498 by mrkew
2021-05-02 at 18:01
< report >
Armpit Sex it's treated like every other Non-Penetrative sexual act
I meant it in general since it seems to be an issue with this one, I'm not about to use the trait. If you look at link, 28 of them (half of all tagged) are female (the no penis kind)
#2499 by beliar
2021-05-02 at 18:26
< report >Yeah, some non-penetrative traits can be confusing to the new users. Even I sometimes get confused. For example I'm still not sure how to use Adult Breast Feeding and Adult Breast Feeding. However the armpits case is pretty straightforward: 'engages in' uses their armpit to stimulate a penis, 'subject of' has their penis stimulated. I think I'll add this to the description.

If you look at link, 28 of them (half of all tagged) are female (the no penis kind)
Unless there are some shenanigans with sex change or penis growth, this is indeed not correct.Last modified on 2021-05-02 at 18:28
#2500 by skorpiondeath
2021-05-02 at 18:43
< report >
I'm still not sure how to use Adult Breast Feeding...
Maybe we can clarify here too, the one giving milk "Engages in" while the one sucking is "Subject of". It's the same for Nipple Sucking, but at least in Nipple Sucking's description is made well explicit how to use it.
This character sucks another character's nipples in a sex scene

I meant it in general since it seems to be an issue with this one, I'm not about to use the trait.
28 is not much, I'll try to sort them out, when I got some free time.Last modified on 2021-05-02 at 18:43