Traits

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#2701 by barfboy
2021-12-04 at 17:07
< report >Oh good question. I personally distinguish between mind control and hypnotism. I look at hypnotism as a suggestion, or as trying to get characters act without inhibition. While mind control is full on turning a human into an automaton and basically just pushing buttons like on a remote and getting them to do what you want.

Take for example Hara☆Min!! ~Saimin Nakadashi Kozukuri Sengen~
The MC wants to have sex with his childhood friend, so he hypnotizes her to think that "making an apology" means "have sex for forgiveness". She's actually already in love with the protagonist (as all the girls in the game are) but needed an extra push to commit. She's in full control of her actions, she just has something wrong put into her mind as a suggestion by the protagonist which leads them to have sex whenever she wants to apologize for something.

Compare that to
Saiin Security Seicom
Where the protagonist is mind controlled to have sex with the heroes. "Have sex with me" ... "Nooooo! What am I doing, I don't want this, iyaaaaaaaa!". They have turned girls into robots, beep boop boop, I will do as master says. Committing sex now. Inserting penis. Beep boop boop.

That's the difference I see but it's not how the tags have been used so I don't know if people would want to redefine all their tags and traits to reflect this.
#2702 by Ezezin
2021-12-04 at 17:19
< report >I think it would be hard to determine a sex scene involving mind control that isn't rape since
every instance of mind control / hypnosis is rape

What about erotic/non-erotic mind control (and/or hypnosis) instead? Easier to use and understand (like the tags Mind Control, Erotic Mind Control and Non-erotic Mind Control)
#2703 by skorpiondeath
2021-12-04 at 19:22
< report >
I think it would be hard to determine a sex scene involving mind control that isn't rape
True, I like Ezezin idea so probably it's better change Rape Involving Mind Control to a trait version of the tag Erotic Mind Control, beside both the tag and the trait should be child of rape too (Rape under Influence in case of the trait).

I personally distinguish between mind control and hypnotism. I look at hypnotism as a suggestion, or as trying to get characters act without inhibition.
Yes hypnotism it's slighlty different from mind control in the way you described barfboy but in the end you are forcing ideas without consent that basically means rape even during hypnotism, subtle or not. Otherwise you should just have sex in the right way with an actual consent.
Beside your example has some flaws in the sense that you picked hypnotism of a girl that is already in love with the MC, implying that hypnotism was just used to push her a bit more sexually toward the protagonist but there are plenty of Hypnotism VN were girls are not in love with the protagonist and hypnotism is used to rape them.Last modified on 2021-12-04 at 19:23
#2704 by beliar
2021-12-04 at 19:28
< report >So, if I understood correctly, your idea is to split Mind Control into Non-erotic Mind Control and Erotic Mind Control (rename Rape Involving Mind Control to this?).

Also to remove the tag Rape Involving Mind Control wholesale, because we already have Erotic Mind Control?

I think I like this idea.
#2705 by skorpiondeath
2021-12-04 at 19:32
< report >Actually is Ezezin idea, wich I find correct, but yes all the things you wrote beliar.
Just be sure to make Erotic Mind Control child of Rape.
#2706 by glowworm
2021-12-04 at 19:37
< report >#2701

I was initially in agreement with you about this being a trait belonging to the mind control side as that obviously is rape. It was in actually in consideration if it would apply along the lines you're saying it doesn't w.r.t. whether link would be applicable. However, rape is any sexual act without consent.

This remains true even if they would have been consent had their been an attempt to ask. Even if it is setup such that hypnotic suggestion cannot force someone to do anything they truly don't want to, if consent is not acquired it definitionally is rape. If they want to have sex, but for whatever reason cannot communicate that and then hypnosis is used to have sex without their explicit consent prior, it still is rape. This is true even if the character isn't troubled by it, or happy for it have happened.

It's along that line of thinking that your example is rape, link is rape, everything that literally didn't involve the characters agreeing to be hypnotized and do sexual acts while in full possession of their decision making faculties is non-consensual and therefore is rape.

#2702
There already is a non-erotic mind control tag link and not a similar one for hypnosis, nor any comparable trait.
#2707 by barfboy
2021-12-04 at 20:01
< report >So what you're saying is, if I want to find a game like Hara☆Min!! ~Saimin Nakadashi Kozukuri Sengen~ but not a game like Hatsujou Saimin Appli ~Shikyuu ni Todoku Chakushin'on~ you're saying "fuck you sucker, you don't get to look up games like Hara☆Min!! ~Saimin Nakadashi Kozukuri Sengen~ because it's all rape" You would leave me no ability to find what I want.

Thanks.
#2708 by Ezezin
2021-12-04 at 20:02
< report >This is because a long time ago there was a discussion about the differences about mind control and hypnosis (the database used to have both terms as separated tags). After some time, tagmods decided to merge both tags into a single one. (Here is the thread: t12533)
It's not that there isn't a non-erotic hypnosis tag, it's just that Non-erotic Mind Control is used for both of them.
#2709 by skorpiondeath
2021-12-04 at 20:27
< report >Lol, you are saying "fuck you sucker" to yourself I mean noone told you that here. And now you are linking 2 different games so I guess we are changing subject.
Ezezin is right Non-erotic Mind Control is used for both games even if I know mind control and hypnotism are different and this discussion about mind control vs hypnotism was done before.

Maybe after calming down a bit you can try to explain what do you mean by
if I want to find a game like Hara☆Min!! ~Saimin Nakadashi Kozukuri Sengen~ but not a game like Hatsujou Saimin Appli ~Shikyuu ni Todoku Chakushin'on~
I didn't play those games so what should I understand from your statement? I still have zero mind reading abilities.

Your welcome.Last modified on 2021-12-04 at 20:28
#2710 by glowworm
2021-12-04 at 20:47
< report >#2707
If you only want to do it by abusing the definition of rape, yes. You'd have to look for characters that are romantically interested in the MC, AND are raped by the MC and look for mind control.

Moving mind control under rape would have the same result assuming there was a trait to denote romantic interest in MC(I'm not sure there is).

#2708
I remember and didn't agree with banding them together, and in a way this rekindles the hypnosis / mind control split within traits. We still have the link hypnotism trait, which I basically consider should be the hypnosis version of the non-erotic mind control; but isn't for historic reasons about being the only game in town.

I think the 'hypnotism' trait should be rolled into erotic mind control, and a erotic and 'non-erotic hypnosis' child trait be added to respectively without saimin as an alias.

However, using this name is probably wrong. There should be a way to distinguish between the effortless "no-resistance" mindcontrol /hypnosis, and the ones which are more methodical and about overcoming some resistance within some sort of limiting system(whether they're proper hypnotic induction or not)

That said, Haramin as I remember from briefly playing it around when it was released is a mind control game, in that old sense. He wants to split this along rape, not rape lines. I think my suggestion works, but it needs to be worded a fair bit better, and named more carefully then throwing it under the umbrella of hypnosis.
#2711 by Ezezin
2021-12-04 at 21:06
< report >Hopefully I'm not opening an old discussion that reached (more or less) a conclusion, but here it goes.

Warfoki final words on the discussion:
Probably the change that has met the most resistance. I still intend to merge these two as the counterarguments were not all that convincing.

Child tags will be created for specific types of mind control / hypnotism, that's gonna be it's own thread once these changes go live.
(this one: t12970) But back then nobody suggested child tags for it.

BTW if I indeed do merge these tags, the relevant traits will also be merged when we come to aligning the trait and tag systems with one another.
Probably soon™, there aren't a lot of tags that don't have an equivalent trait, and most of them are hero/heroine/protagonist variants anyway.Last modified on 2021-12-05 at 00:25
#2712 by skorpiondeath
2021-12-04 at 21:24
< report >About the "no-resistence" statement... Ok I get it that not having resistence from a rape victim it fell short fetish wise for some of you guys but there are people that gets offended by this same concept.
If the "no-resistence" should come into play even raping a sleeping girl feels different from raping a girls who puts up a fight. But we are not going down this way.

Instead I would gladly try to reopen the Hypnotism route if there are people here that think that it should be something that must be separated from mind control. That can happen if there are good reasons or argument that convince the moderators.
Obviosuly playing the victim won't achive a single thing.Last modified on 2021-12-04 at 21:26
#2713 by glowworm
2021-12-04 at 21:25
< report >Here's what I suggest, child to mind control: limited, not limited mind control. Which would be "There is some sort of limiting factor to the mind control(which is probably overcome during the course of the story).", and "the mind control can't be, and isn't resisted or resistible" respectively.

Then child to limited mind control: "realistic hypnosis" employs something resembling real-world hypnosis: i.e. induction, and suggestion.
#2714 by skorpiondeath
2021-12-04 at 21:31
< report >
Then child to limited mind control: "realistic hypnosis" employs something resembling real-world hypnosis: i.e. induction, and suggestion.
glowworm, tell me if I'm getting it right so you mean that "realistic hypnosis" should be something more like a subtle sexual corruption achieved troughout induction and suggestion?
#2715 by beliar
2021-12-04 at 21:49
< report >It's a terrible idea to split apart traits based on small nuances few people will care to really think about. I don't support the whole Limited/non-limited Hypnosis.

That said, tags are supposed to be broader than traits, so they can describe a broader concept without losing functionality. I absolutely support Warfoki's merging of Hypnosis and Mind Control and definitely won't be splitting the tag again. The traits can go into smaller details, which is why I don't necessarily oppose Hypnosis trait being separate from Mind Control, even if I personally really want to merge them too.
#2716 by glowworm
2021-12-04 at 22:56
< report >#2714
That's fine.
#2715
I described limited / non-limited mind control. All hypnosis is mind control, and limited mind control at that, but not all limited mind control is hypnosis.

Part of the problem about the category is this want for granularity about the system, and then about the use of realistic seeming systems. The other is people seeing "saimin" and tagging without consideration, and they could just tag it mind control and not be wrong, and someone could play the game and give the appropriate detail about the system being used.

There is a split in interests among people banded under "mind control" along the lines of the system employed. For instance link is the best game produced in this genre of nukige, imo. Often, this tag is used as a convenient / lazy means to erotic situations, and these games usually fall into the non-limited mind control camp. Fans of the latter would find the former boring, and plain. These are two distinct sub-genres of nukige, and this split is at the heart of people wanting separate tags. The problem is that 'hypnosis' is too specific, and this system distinction more clearly speaks to what people care about.

Generally I agreed with the merging too, because the tag had been abused to the point of being useless by people who tagged without a mind to the system employed, but I do miss the granularity previously on offer. The mind control superset rightly solves the former at the cost of the latter. That could be remedied easily enough though, and while I've introduced a way looking at it that is somewhat unique, I do think the people interested in the category would agree with it.Last modified on 2021-12-04 at 23:02
#2717 by Mrkew
2021-12-04 at 23:48
< report >Saimin is saimin. Don't complicate it. Anything more than splitting into erotic/non-erotic is too much.
#2718 by skorpiondeath
2021-12-05 at 00:37
< report >@barfboy: About Hatsujou Saimin Appli ~Shikyuu ni Todoku Chakushin'on~ I see characters are tagged with Hypnotism wich is under the normal parent Mind Control wich is not considered rape, so basically you can always find characters subject of hypnotism, like always I don't see the problem here. Obviously a plain distinction between mind control and hypnotism it's still there in the traits even if the tags were already merged up.

@glowworm:
Generally I agreed with the merging too, because the tag had been abused to the point of being useless by people who tagged without a mind to the system employed
That's basically why it's important to keep stuff simple or either be sure that is fully understandable by people. With tags is much worse that with traits where people can at least fight over things. In the tag department it always downvotes and such that make mods hope for a simplicistic and broader approach.

I do miss the granularity previously on offer.
I don't know about beliar but I'm at least willing to hear what people have to say expecially for the traits department. I usually am a fan of granularity but at least it should be done in a way that the majority of people could understand of what the fuck we are talking about, making compromises it's by nature the hardest thing to balance in the trait/tag system and basically we always let somebody down either be the one that want's it simple either the one not finding his fetish.
Let say I'm a fan of feet. Now I come here on the board complaining that we just have Footjob tag, but what about, Solejob, Toejob, Sockjob and so on... Do you think that it will be a good idea to split hairs so everyone just go crazy around tagging nonsense? Also I like stocking but oh well shit we don't have a trait for Vintage Stockings, that you know are not an hentai thing, but there is that western game I wanna tag. Nope sometime it's not a good idea, sometime more is less.
Against beliar and warfoki on the other hand I gotta say Saimin is a well defined subset of hentai VN, that's the thing that makes me take this discussion in some consideration.

All hypnosis is mind control, and limited mind control at that, but not all limited mind control is hypnosis.
I get that non-limited mind control is like having superpowers or magic, you basically control someone fully, so like we have non-limited mind control we should have a child trait non-limited hypnosis for game like Saimin Yuugi, and if I get it right that should fall under the rape condition.
But splitting hairs we should have limited mind-control and then a limited hypnosis for games like Hara☆Min!! ~Saimin Nakadashi Kozukuri Sengen~, wich basically we don't wanna consider rape because it's just a little induction/suggestion where the victim of limited hypnosis probably already wanted to have sex with the protagonist but just needed a little push. Am I getting it right? Not sure.
And at top of that what case do we have of limited mind-control wich is not limited hypnosis? Weak superpowers? Rapist good will?
I know I look sarcastic but I'm not, just trying to understand what are we talking about in details.Last modified on 2021-12-05 at 00:54
#2719 by Ezezin
2021-12-05 at 01:23
< report >You can delete the trait Halloween Costume that I submitted if you want.
I... got confused by the description of Cosplay and thought that it doesn't apply to those kind of costumes, but thanks to NaioHoras now I understand that's not the case. Instead, can "costume wearing" be an alias for Cosplay?
#2720 by glowworm
2021-12-05 at 01:54
< report >Anything hypnosis would be limited, saimin yuugi especially. That game in particular would have limited MC, (or realistic hypnosis if that's a thing), both ero and non-ero MC. The sexual content would fall under rape.

Non-limited would be the superpower/magic variant. As I recall from briefly playing haramin a decade ago, it didn't meet my standard for hypnosis(it wasn't realistic), and fell too far on the non-limited side of things for my liking. It would be rape as they didn't consent to the act itself prior to it happening. They might retroactively approve of it, but it would still be non-consensual in the doing of it; as people with compromised decision making faculties cannot consent.

Hypnosis, this paired down version bound to reality and not serving as the catchall for 'saimin' at least, is a subset of limited mind control. It's not magic, some cell phone app; it's a hypnotic induction, and suggestion bound by what the recipient is willing to do. It is a subset of limited MC. I would include non-realistic(plausibly real world) induction techniques into limited MC.

It would be the system itself that is being talked about, not a characters personality restricting their actions. Lune games, link in particular, would be limited MC, and not hypnosis. MC gets into this altar and gets an ability to, through force of will, get people to obey his command. That is contingent on his will vs how badly the person doesn't want to do the thing, and he gets better at it over time, and uses manipulation to erode resistance as well.

link would be hypnosis. The MC uses induction, (which gets time skipped), and hypnotic suggestion in a realistic seeming sense to overcome the resistance the characters have to performing sex acts.

Every instance of hypnosis is limited mind control, and not every instance of limited mind control is hypnosis.

Generally you can't hypnotize people that don't want to be, unless they're uniquely prone to being hypnotized. The game will involve getting people to agree to be hypnotized, or heroine prone to being in a hypnotic state being put into one through manipulation. It's a skill learned, not a power gained. It's not almighty, and not all powerful.
#2721 by tapestree
2021-12-05 at 08:43
< report >The recent changes I've noticed (removing Rape Involving Mind Control but placing Erotic Mind Control as a child tag of Rape under the Influence, and splitting Mind Control tags and traits into non-erotic and erotic to that end) seem good to me. Probably things were generally okay the way they were before, since non-erotic mind control isn't something I sensed that people had a strong interest in looking up, and the wording isn't perfect either, but I personally see no problems.

Classifying MC-related traits accurately enough to satisfy fetishists who are paying attention is always going to be a challenge.

#2720/glowworm: If I understand your proposal right, you're saying that separate from the erotic and non-erotic split, it'd be beneficial to create two other child tags or child traits of Mind Control that are adjacent to erotic and non-erotic, called "Limited Mind Control" and "Not Limited Mind Control", and in the case of traits moving Hypnosis under Limited Mind Control. About the terms "limited" and "not limited" (or even non-limited/unlimited), they're a bit non-intuitive to me: I don't spend much time in MC-related forums these days, but I assume they aren't well-known terms there either. Could there be a better term? Also, regardless of whether Limited Mind Control is created as a tag/trait, adding "Realistic Hypnosis" as a child tag/trait of Hypnosis does make sense to me, but you'd probably need to be careful how you define it, such as based on the power it has over a person, because in real life, it can still be very powerful. And I can see how labeling mind control based on whether it's self-reversible could be interesting, but I'm not sure how to clearly define either. Ctrl+F A hypnotist cannot. Clear examples of unrealistic hypnosis might be things like technique-less instant induction of someone who'd never been hypnotized before, or a person obeying in spite of their own wishes when they have self-awareness and there are no established alternative wishes which would support them obeying, and supernatural elements. This also ties into another potential problem with moving the Hypnosis trait: like you said, the word hypnosis is often used in nukige in a way that fantasizes it as allowing perfect control of a person's thoughts, so if you defined it as only limited, you'd have potential resistance from people who want to use it to refer to that. In a fictional story where people are 200% receptive to hypnosis, the difference between realistic hypnosis and all-powerful hypnosis is relatively fine. "Hypnosis" (saimin) is the blanket term for this fetish in Japanese, and "mind control" is the preferred blanket term in the English fetishist community (notice that the EMCSA doesn't have a separate tag for hypnosis); I would admit that it's more technically correct to limit the definition of what hypnosis can do, but it's possible the cons could outweigh the pros in terms of database integrity.
#2722 by glowworm
2021-12-05 at 10:23
< report >#2721/tapestree

Not quite. I'd put it all under erotic mind control, and leave non-erotic mind control the generalized version dealing with the superset(as it's use is too rare to warrant the level of granularity). Generally saimin -> mind control should be the universal behavior used; which is to say that it should exclusively have the saimin alias. The hypnotism trait has been applied to both people seeing the word saimin and applying it, and to any case of a hypnotic suggestion(even the non-limited magical kind). Generally if that suggestion can be anything and be abided by I would consider, and would want to categorize that as, a non-realistic-hypnosis or 'mind control'.

For my purposes a sub/child category of hypnotism denoting realistic hypnotism would suffice, but I was trying to propose a comprehensive categorization that would satisfy how I, and I figure people generally, would want to categorize mind control. I don't think the people wanting "non-limited/unlimited" systems particularly care if it very vaguely resembles a real world hypnosis technique, or if it is outright magic( as it is outright magic in either case). However, they do care if it is limited and the eroticism corresponding slow and limited and more based in a gradual manipulation.

Largely this has been extrapolating how I look at, and what I look for, from these categories and using the words I think of in so doing. The "limited" language may not be ideal, I began by looking at systems with resistance and wanted a term to describe them. Generally, the categorization within the community about mind control is very sloppy.
#2723 by skorpiondeath
2021-12-05 at 12:41
< report >@#2722 - glowworm
Ok so you are saying that it's not only a matter of hypnotism vs mind control but more on how those practices are used on characters.
Using your words:
they do care if it is limited and the eroticism corresponding slow and limited and more based in a gradual manipulation
you are just saying that is more important fetish wise to categorize the slow and gradual manipulation of characters instead of the practice used to do it either be mind control or hypnotism.
That's pobably why this discussion is hard because we are mixing the discussion about the definition of hypnotism vs mind control but at the same time we are discussing about "limited/gradual" application vs "unlimited/superpower" application either by mind control or hypnotism.

If I got it right (still unsure :P) for some people the magic, robotic mind controlling or overpowered hypnotism not resembling the real life subtle and gradual effect just leads them to games that they don't like, because the perpetrator of mind control or hypnotism just feels like a god pushing buttons on a remote giving commands that characters mindlessly are forced to follow.
Instead a "limited/gradual" induction, in a form that it's not overpowered where character are not forced to follow orders but where they are gradually induced on accepting on their own will the commands or lets say the induction slowly awakened their hidden sexuality or sexual drive, will lead to a all kind of different games fetish-wise.

I get it why it's so hard to define.Last modified on 2021-12-05 at 12:44
#2724 by beliar
2021-12-05 at 12:53
< report >
This also ties into another potential problem with moving the Hypnosis trait: like you said, the word hypnosis is often used in nukige in a way that fantasizes it as allowing perfect control of a person's thoughts, so if you defined it as only limited, you'd have potential resistance from people who want to use it to refer to that. In a fictional story where people are 200% receptive to hypnosis, the difference between realistic hypnosis and all-powerful hypnosis is relatively fine. "Hypnosis" (saimin) is the blanket term for this fetish in Japanese, and "mind control" is the preferred blanket term in the English fetishist community
This. God fucking this! The split between hypnosis and mind control as the traits makes little sense, because while the western definition of hypnosis imagines slow induction, the JP saimin games are usually going for perfect and immediate control.

Moreover, it does not need to be hypnosis to be slow. I have recently played the early build of the game "Star Knightess Aura" (an awesome game - fully recommended). It's the definition of a veery slow mind control, where after about 8 hours of playing, the mind controlled character still doesn't show any actual mental changes. That said, the method used is magic, not hypnosis. So, mind control can be subtle or immediate despite the method used.

I could be convinced to support slow or immediate mind control branches, but in that case I require giving up the Hypnosis trait. My proposal is merging Mind Control and Hypnotism. And we can then split Erotic Mind Control into Slow Erotic Mind Control and Immediate Erotic Mind Control.
#2725 by PortaTerzo
2021-12-08 at 17:33
< report >There are quite a few child traits of Engages in (Sexual) that do not have their own container. I'd be nice if they could get their own container.
link

I'd propose following:

"Game mechanic"
>Detached Sex Scenes Only (16)
>Game Over Sex Scenes Only (9)
>Sex with Protagonist Only (1311)
Child trait that handle game mechanical stuff.

"Foreplay"
>Consensual Phone Sex (59)
>Face-farting (18)
>Foot Insertion (4)
>French Kiss (1179)
>Live Sex Chat (70)
>Navel Penetration (5)
>Prostate Massage (104)
>Sexting (24)
>Striptease (70)
>Voyeurism (321)
Sexual acts that build up to sex.

"Condition"
>Drunk Sex (291)
>Pregnant Sex (2812)
>Sex Involving Menstruation (31)
Sex where character is under a temporary condition of some kind.

"Time"
>Sleep Sex (87)
>Wake-up Sex (262)
Sex concerning the time of sex.