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#2976 by kei-tr
2022-09-24 at 04:12
< report >#2974 I recommend checking description of loli heroine tag

Her age matters not one bit when it comes to her classification as a loli. This is only about appearance.

So, I say #2972's loli definition is pretty much accurate

Edit: As far as I know being lolicon is being attracted to girls looks like underage (as description above says). So, she really could be an underage girl or she could be Sonono Nene. On the other hand, being pedophile is all about being attracted to underage girls. Sonono Nene still might be in your strike zone as a pedophile but if you go after her you won't be defined as a pedophile because she isn't an underage girl really, you will still be a lolicon though. But even if Komae Nana probably isn't in your strike zone as a pedophile if you go after her you will be defined as a pedophile but you will not be a lolicon.Last modified on 2022-09-24 at 05:04
#2977 by Ezezin
2022-09-24 at 04:16
< report >
No one would call them "loli" under this definition, either.

Edit: Fixed the search a bit.Last modified on 2022-09-24 at 04:22
#2978 by SomeDude
2022-09-24 at 04:29
< report >Typically any character with the Body > Apparent Age > Kid trait can be considered a "loli" for the purposes of loli heroine and straight lolicon tagging.

Considering all the similarities between these traits and tags, it can be extrapolated that any man or woman who has sex with a female character with the Body > Apparent Age > Kid trait is a candidate for the Lolicon trait, and the definition of said trait should reflect this. Perhaps not every single case, but for the most part. You'll find that the "kid" trait loli heroines outnumber the "teen" trait loli heroines by approximately three to one, and mostly due to having the wrong traits applied to them (I see several obvious children on #2977's list that should have the kid body type rather than teen and many other titles with a lot of downvotes to their loli tags. )

A slightly more refined search removes the oppai loli heroine trait which is something else entirely, and raises the minimum score to 2.0 to account for scores with quite a few downvotes. Honestly, I think "oppai loli" heroines probably shouldn't have a tag since true oppai lolis are incredibly rare, but that's a different debate entirely. Meanwhile, you get nearly five times as many results from searching kid trait loli heroines with the same minimum score of 2.0. And a crowded room of fanatical weebs can erupt into civil war over whether Vanilla have the "kid" or "teen" body type trait. Personally, I think Vanilla looks like an eleven year old, but I don't want to start a "trait edit" war over her.

And when you compare the total number of teen to kid body type females who are sexually involved, it becomes undeniable. The total number of kid characters only is only slightly more than double the total number of VNs with loli heroines (with a 2.0 or higher score. It's much closer to 1:1 if you remove the 2.0 requirement). And we know most VNs have multiple heroines. Yet the number of teen heroines exceeds the number of "teen but not kid, loli heroine" VNs by more than ten thousand, well over 50:1. Essentially, these are outliers, not the norm.Last modified on 2022-09-24 at 06:25
#2979 by mebiuss
2022-09-25 at 19:33
< report >I think you're confusing some aspects of lolicon with loli.

Loli is a term that can be used to refer to prepubescent girls as well as older women whose bodies have characteristics mainly pertaining to prebubescent girls.

Lolicon is similar to the term pedophile in English. It's used EXCLUSIVELY to refer to those attracted to prebubescent girls. In the same way you wouldn't call someone a pedophile for dating a 20 year old who looks like she's 12, we don't call someone a lolicon for dating a 2000 year old vampire, regardless of her apparent age. Unless he didn't know she was 2000 years old and thought she was an actual kid, then he's a lolicon.

In short, a 2000 year old vampire can be a loli, but her lover is not a lolicon unless he thinks he's getting together with a kid.
And this isn't even my opinion, this is what those terms actually mean and how they're used. As you can see here and here.
I don't think going by other people's trait and tag usage is a good idea since people often use those incorrectly.Last modified on 2022-09-26 at 03:39
#2980 by SomeDude
2022-09-25 at 22:05
< report >Loli quite literally means lolita, and lolicon quite literally means lolita complex, so to say they have the same meaning is 100% accurate. Additionally, this site is an English site, so regardless of the way "lolicon" is used in colloquial Japanese, we English speakers use "loli" and "lolicon" specifically in reference to 2d characters who look young, regardless of their actual age. There is a pretty significant difference in English between lolicon and pedophilia, as one applies specifically to fictional characters while the other does not. In short, lolicon does not mean the same thing in English as it does in colloquial Japanese. When a word is borrowed/stolen from anime/manga, it tends to maintain an anime-specific meaning... as we already have a word for Pedophile, we use the term Lolicon to mean something different. I could redirect to some lolicon image boorus that spell out this distinction but I'm not sure if that's against site rules or not.

Straight lolicon and lesbian lolicon are both tags for VNs, but there is currently no trait that can be applied to the character engaging in such lolicon. For simplicity's sake and simple consistency, the "lolicon" personality trait should have a definition that can logically be applied to characters who perform the sexual activities that cause straight/lesbian lolicon tagging in a VN. This is for consistency, as this site's primary purpose of this site is to provide accurate information to the queries of English-speaking VN readers. Changing the meaning of "lolicon" when applied as a personality trait is utterly confusing and inconsistent. However, there's always the middle ground option of renaming the deleted lolicon trait "pedophile" and adding a new "lolicon" trait to refer sexual attraction towards any loli, regardless of age.

I do agree that a lot of people tag things incorrectly, however. That's why we have a downvoting system, and why I feel like any tag with fewer than three votes or a score under 2.0 is pretty unreliable.Last modified on 2022-09-25 at 22:36
#2981 by Ileca
2022-09-26 at 00:13
< report >
Lolicon is similar to the term pedophile in English. It's used EXCLUSIVELY to refer to those attracted to prebubescent girls. In the same way you wouldn't call someone a pedophile for dating a 20 year old who looks like she's 12, we don't call someone a lolicon for dating a 2000 year old vampire, regardless of her apparent age. Unless he didn't know she was 2000 years old and thought she was an actual kid, then he's a lolicon.
Lolicon pretty much equates pedophile in Japanese, indeed, tho in a much less derogatory way, but neither are used exclusively to refer to attraction towards <15yo children. There is a lot of leeway in both language, what you would call abuse, but still, it's how it is used. I mean that people call pedophiles adults who love legal loli, adults who are attracted to minors <18yo (e.g. steam), Dicaprio (age gap), etc. It's the same in Japan with old dudes watching idols (age gap), etc. Pedophile/lolicon is pretty standard insult for something people judge to be morally wrong regarding attraction to youth.
It's useless to try to be psychiatric here.

I don't see the need for any lolicon trait. We only need a pedophile trait. Iirc people were mad that those characters were called pedophiles because they took it personally but that's what they are (the characters, not the pissed users tho who knows?). Those characters live in the same reality as the children they abuse. They are pedophiles. End of story.
I don't understand which goal you would meet by creating a parent trait for characters who are attracted to child-like bodies. Find lolicon-pretending characters?
Btw Subject of > Pedophile was denied. Too bad because that's what we need, not a lolicon trait that will be mistagged based on which preconception the user who never read tag definitions has.

Well, I say "the trait we need" but I never needed it to find any lolige. We already have all the tools and if you don't like loli being the protagonist, you can filter them out already.Last modified on 2022-09-26 at 00:47
#2982 by mebiuss
2022-09-26 at 03:47
< report >#2980 So you want to use the term Lolicon but you want to make up your own meaning of what it's supposed to mean? Because lolicon certainly cannot be applied to attraction torwards any age, as I explained before and even linked sources that you can read for yourself.

At this point why not make up your own trait for that instead of trying to change what lolicon means?
#2983 by meguro
2022-09-26 at 04:16
< report >I read the page, and it includes characters attracted to 5 million year old vampires like this one. Not sure what the objection is all about.
#2984 by mebiuss
2022-09-26 at 09:15
< report >I don't know if you ever watched that anime but that character falls exactly in the case I mentioned before, where they don't know that the loli in question is a billion years old and think they're just a loli. What makes them a lolicon is the fact that they do what they do believing the character is an actual kid.
In the case of this character, she even calls Mao a little girl (幼女) herself. Which is what the article brings up when it calls her a lolicon.Last modified on 2022-09-26 at 09:17
#2985 by catboy
2022-09-27 at 23:48
< report >for Engages in > Incestual Romance: It would be for when there's incest relationships that people want to look for or stay away from. Currently, we only have the "sexual" tag which... won't work for non-sexual VNs.
#2986 by Ezezin
2022-09-27 at 23:51
< report >Incest Romance
#2987 by catboy
2022-09-27 at 23:51
< report >That's a tag though, this would be a trait
#2988 by Ezezin
2022-09-28 at 00:09
< report >
It would be for when there's incest relationships that people want to look for or stay away from.
That's why we have a tag for it, not sure why we would need to add any romance option to traits (make a search using tags, like this).
#2989 by Ezezin
2022-09-28 at 02:17
< report >About Clothes > Dental Braces, what about moving it into Body > Teeth?
Body > Beak: Don't forget the source!Last modified on 2022-09-28 at 02:42
#2990 by catboy
2022-09-28 at 20:59
< report >>That's why we have a tag for it, not sure why we would need to add any romance option to traits (make a search using tags, like this).

Then why does the "incest" sexual trait exist? This is the same argument, no?
#2991 by Ezezin
2022-09-29 at 05:37
< report >Not really. The incest trait initially existed because it was not possible to search using tags before the advance search update, so it was needed if someone wanted to search for those characters (you can more or less see how it was).
I'm guessing the reason it was not deleted yet is because it's still heavily used and it's not a big deal having it as a trait too, while also helpful when showed in the character entry itself. Also, in most cases sexual related traits tend to be pretty specific or easy to use, so low chance of edit warring occurring.
Keep in mind the incest trait can be used for characters that are not related to the protagonist (since is purely sexual, there could be cases where the protagonist doesn't get involved in it), while the tag is more generic and impossible to see who is engaged in what.

On the other hand, if they get accepted, any romantic/romance trait will have the same use as its tag counterpart. This is not helpful, becoming just duplicate information I very much prefer to not see. Besides, any trait suggestion regarding the "romanceable" part is always a can of worms ready for misusing and edit warring.

Actually, it's interesting that Beliar accepted Role > Platonic Route Only when I thought we wouldn't have any Role > Has Route(s) type of tags until Yorhel implements a function so we could set characters as hero/heroine or selecting which ones has a route or not.
However, I understand that a romanceable character is not the same as a platonic one; and even if we had a "have a route" type of data, we wouldn't be able to see if it's a romantic route or a friendship one, so I'm guessing this was needed after all.Last modified on 2022-09-29 at 05:38
#2992 by bassttark
2022-09-29 at 13:19
< report >#2989
I put Clothes > Dental Braces under Clothes > Headwear taking inspiration in Clothes > Glasses that is also classified as Clothes > Headwear instead of being under Eyes. However braces are usually more permanent than glasses so it might be a good idea to classify them under Body > Teeth.
#2993 by catboy
2022-09-29 at 13:42
< report >The Role > Platonic Route Only trait is actually kind of incredible, so people don't have to get their hopes up.

But I get it now, I was confused as to why one existed and the other didn't.
#2994 by NaioHoras
2022-09-30 at 02:16
< report >Role > Platonic Route Only should be child trait of Subject of instead, to be consistent with the other route/ending traits.
#2995 by donkeyskin
2022-09-30 at 13:45
< report >Please change the trait names "Transman" into "Trans man", and "Transwoman" into "Trans woman", so that they can have a space between adjective and name since it's the correct spelling to write them.
#2996 by flowerno9
2022-10-01 at 14:45
< report >Shouldn't Social Networking Service be a child trait of Internet?
#2997 by Ezezin
2022-10-01 at 14:52
< report >Those are tags, so you might be looking for the Tags suggestions/fixes thread for that.
#2998 by flowerno9
2022-10-01 at 15:54
< report >t3314.2997 Yes. Sorry. I accidentally clicked on a wrong discussion.
#2999 by catboy
2022-10-04 at 03:33
< report >Subject of > Gender Dysphoria

Can this please be added for cases where exact gender identities aren't specified?
#3000 by caffeinecrisis
2022-10-04 at 05:06
< report >Seconding #2999, I checked everything under Subject of > Gender and Sexuality Related that's mentioned in the reason Subject of > Gender Dysphoria was deleted and... none of these mean gender dysphoria or are similar at all? Gender dysphoria can be experienced long before said feelings can be defined as being transgender or nonbinary, and said defining may never happen within the confines of the story.Last modified on 2022-10-04 at 05:09