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#1226 by sakurakoi
2017-10-11 at 03:50
People wanting to play a game with students don't go for specific year levels... Probably?
No, especially for highschool, stories differ significantly for freshman, juniors and seniors and many folks would search for that (in contrary to lots of mundane item and clothing traits which by no means are a detriment but how would a specified school year be?). Needless to say, you can not search for character descriptions.

And yes, for highschool settings, which seem to make up 90% of the school settings (well, close to at least, there are ~13k highschool students and ~1,7k other), the grade for the protagonists at least as well as major characters are specified in more than 90% of the time (with it being less often specified in short and amateur works, not that I can prove that since after all, there is no trait).

I will not implement large changes without hearing from warfoki or takata first.
They are still "alive"? Pretty sure that yorhel would be a better bet but welp...

Brown isn't really a dark red btw, and claret is more like a reddish purple or magenta as compared to violet being a blueish purple.
Brown is closer to Red than Yellow and Claret is also closer to Red than Purple/Violet. Folks can already see anyway which color is the most dominant (from the few one can choose from) and which tint one merely has. All that really needs to be changed from my suggestion really would be to change

"I.e Dark Red is Brown or Claret"
"I.e Dark Red may be Brown or Claret"

since Dark Red may have no other tint/Green and Blue have about if not the same value.

By the by... a color wheel would be also neat which visually specifies the ranges.
#1227 by tapestree
2017-10-11 at 07:23
@1225 nutellafan That all sounds great to me.
#1228 by infernoplex
2017-10-15 at 23:36
How do you call this hairstyle? Sometimes, these ribbon hair ties are used just as an accessory but in this case, I do see a form of a hairstyle. I am kind of gravitating towards saying that it's a special ponytail kind of hairstyle but it doesn't look exactly like that, I am having trouble deciphering it. When looked from the front-view, it's not even noticeable, it blends in so well that it's hard to tell she ever had any kind of tail behind.

Any thoughts?
#1229 by dk382
2017-10-15 at 23:43
It's not really that special. It's just a ponytail. Some ponytails fan out and are wide like that. See also Inamura Rio
#1230 by infernoplex
2017-10-16 at 00:09
#1229 @Decay - Ah, thanks for the input, yeah, that heroine from Dracu-Riot! also has that fan out wide style of ponytail :) ... I just wasn't sure whether it can be called a ponytail when it's in that fan wide form, I thought maybe it's not considered a true ponytail when it looks like that.

Thanks for the clarification :) ...
#1231 by sakurakoi
2017-10-16 at 09:55
Now I'd also like some thoughts on two sets of traits I think should be added: Interrogation and Training (Sexual), both engage in and subject of. This is primarily to set Interrogation apart from Torture, of which the latter is not applied to sexual interrogation and perfectly legal police interrogation. Meanwhile sexual training (or grooming) maybe utilized during Sexual Slavery but not necessarily (and vice versa), there is neither a trait for perpetrators nor "helping hands" (there is by the by no general Assistant trait...), the closest trait would be Criminal (Accomplice) and that'd ofc require the training to be a crime and would be lumped with all other undefined crimes or just Rape.

on a side note, regarding tails, well after all, no matter how wide or thin, twin tails are also just twin tails. Same simply applies to single tails, where it is simply differentiated between whether the hair is tied up at the back or side (and even then it is apparently called a side ponytail).

Regarding no "matter how wide or thin": I would have never guessed that Lavi Gier had a pony tail (or I forgot/missed it, I did not read too much of it for I was not compelled despite her VA being Tamiyasu Tomoe whom I quite like/find the voice very amusing)... by the by, I am pretty sure that the hair is shoulder length/medium length, not short. Just look at link
#1232 by kiru
2017-10-16 at 11:34
Tails are generally applied VERY loosely. Just look at the twin-tail trait. You will be finding some "twin tails" pretty fast, where you'll need to search them. And not because it's because the character has multiple hairstyles. It simply means that any kind of two tails count. Although I myself think that's utterly wrong, as what's considered a "twin-tail" hairstyle is fairly well defined and the trait should be used for that, but it's way too deep rooted to change it. I can imagine ponytail being similar.

As for Lavi, I don't remember anything either. May be an error, but it could also be there for a VERY short time to the point, it's easy to forget. She definitely doesn't have a ponytail in a normal way though. Kinda too short hair for that anyway.
#1233 by steamboatwillie
2017-10-16 at 20:55
Similarly with Rina, Lavi's ponytail is rather thin and would usually be overlooked when frontfacing. In cgs, a small ponytail can be seen.
#1234 by savagetiger
2017-10-19 at 07:48
Tall that 'long' at the end should say 'tall'
#1235 by nutellafan
2017-10-21 at 01:34
@#1226 sakurakoi: Ah, that is true. The vast majority of visual novels I have come across do say stuff like "2nd Year High School Student" and such. I think a year level split would be the most useful for high school students given the sheer volume, and if a split should happen, it should be "tested" there. Regarding the colour discussion... Yes, yorhel would probably be a better choice. He's more active than the two I've mentioned?

Regarding the #1231 post: OK, I see what you're saying and I agree that the two concepts should be separated. Both a Subject/Engages "Interrogation and Training (Sexual)" trait can be created as a child trait of Sexual Slavery? On a side note, I see that Pillory (BDSM) is put under the non-sexual Torture trait even though it's used a sexual trait. I'm thinking I should move this, though I'm not sure how many pillories are used in non-sexual ways in a VN?

@#1227 tapestree: No problem, I've implemented them. Let's see how we go and if even more improvements could be made if needed:

* Collar (BDSM) has been renamed Slave Collar.
* "Detachable Shirt Collar" added as an alias of "i1568"
* I've added the death game wear trait as Death Game Accessory.

@#1234 savagetiger: Thank you, I've fixed it.
#1236 by sakurakoi
2017-10-21 at 06:17
"Interrogation and Training (Sexual)"
I actually intended to separate them (hence two sets of "traits instead of "two traits") but in any event... and apart from that the Pillory (BDSM) should indeed be labeled as sexual. There are literary neigh noteworthy or rather at all, pillories featured in VNs that are non-sexual.

Now before sending the traits into the approval system and risking a subpar definition because they can not be simply changed then (need pointing-out/discussion regardless) or simple denial that clogs up some search systems (general trait search does not only show accepted by default), I prefer to suggest&discuss them here first until approval is assured:

Traits > Role > Careers > Student > Students by Grade > High School Student
1st Year High School Student

The character is in the first grade of a High School and commonly referred to as freshman during the events of the story. Freshmen commonly have to deal with forming new bonds, joining clubs and generally the new high school life. Like every time a new phase in one's life is reached, freshmen upon their high school debut may take the occasion or outright chance and subject themselves to a major image change.

Alias: Highschool Freshman

Traits > Role > Careers > Student > Students by Grade > High School Student
2nd Year High School Student

The character is in the second grade of a High School and commonly referred to as sophomores or junior during the events of the story, this is not to be confused with the american junior high school. Junior students do not have to deal with any major life changes during their year, bonds are already established, the club chosen even if it is the Going-Home Club and graduation is still far off. They merely then have freshmen with which they form a bond and take the role as their Senpai. Most commonly during the 2nd year a student is named ace, director, officer or president of their association.

American and other high school system may have an additional year, hence why sophomore and junior or maybe even neigh. VNDB is primarily based on the Japanese system and others which have 3 years. If the 3rd year is not the final year and the character is in any inbetween, this tag can be still used.

Alias: High School Junior; High School Sophomore

Traits > Role > Careers > Student > Students by Grade > High School Student
3rd Year High School Student

The character is in the third grade of a high school and commonly referred to as Senior during the events of the story. With graduation being within a year's reach, seniors have to deal with what comes thereafter, whether getting work or into a college or university and whether they want to or not. This includes preparation for serious exams at the end of the school year. Unless in some cases their previous Senpai and now Alumni visit the school, seniors are only Senpai and are in the process of handing over their positions as ace or director of their club or their position as officer or president of the student council while they prepare for graduation.

American and other high school system may have a 4th year which is the final one. VNDB is primarily based on the Japanese system and others which have 3 years. In the rare event where the character is in their final year of high school but the school system is not built around 3 years, this trait can be still applied if known.

Alias: High School Senior

Traits > Engages in > Investigation/Traits > Subject of

The character engages in/is subject of interrogation. This trait includes any lawful and police interrogation as well as any unlawful one that does not entail only torture which entails no eliciting of information. In case there is also torture, please apply the torture trait as well, if it is only torture or no intend to get information is ever shown, please only apply the torture trait. As long as any sexual torture involves interrogation, this trait does apply alongside torture.

Traits > Engages in (Sexual)/Subject of (Sexual)
Training (Sexual)

The character teaches/receives explicit sexual training or education which goes beyond what any sane Physical and Health Education Class (or also just Sex Education)would implement in their lessons. Education is done with a goal or purpose in mind which was planned beforehand and to surmount a previous limit, resulting in visible progress. Unless getting used to sexual activity/pleasure is a clear goal, it does not count. While commonly subjects of sexual slavery are often trained in that field, this is not limited to them nor are all necessarily being trained and instead just learn and gain experience while doing it.

Characters may also very well teach themselves, whether they seek "more" alone or within a group that lacks a clear separation between teachers and students. Such self-teaching still requires to break one's physical or psychological limitations. Just seeking "more" right after something was not enough does not count since the limit moved naturally already.

Alias: Sexual Education

Please tell me which I or just anyone can copy&paste and which would get approved or tell how they need to be adjusted/corrected.Last modified on 2017-10-21 at 06:17
#1237 by savagetiger
2017-10-21 at 12:40
I still think those year traits are completely unnecessary, not all games make such a big deal about what grade a character is in, and some games involve time skips where a character might change grades.
Is this a thing that is more common in bishoujo games? To put so much emphasis on the grade? All that extra fluff in those descriptions seems a bit much for such a simple trait.

And isn't training more of a non-conish or forceful thing? like with Sexual Slavery (Choukyou Variation).
It's more than just simple education.
And you can't really train yourself in something like sex where it's about teaching to please a partner.
#1238 by wakaranai
2017-10-21 at 13:01
@1225 may i ask what's your reasoning behind joining Choker and Collar? they seem distinctive enough both visually and functionally to keep them separate. besides, collar+choker mirrors similar pair Cuffs+i164, therefore for the sake of consistency i'd suggest keep traits as they are now and restore "detachable shirt collar" alias to Collar, removing it from Choker. this recent change looks completely illogical to me.
#1239 by tapestree
2017-10-21 at 16:59
@1238 Not that I can speak for nutellafan or others, but discussion of those traits was initiated by me back in t3314.986, nutellafan commented on it in t3314.1196, and we've talked about the specific edge case of detached/shirt collars in t3314.1211 and t3314.1216~1223. tl;dr: What you're saying is right, except that "collar" isn't synonymous with detached shirt collars. Keep in mind that collar refers to any band of material around the neck; collar(any worn item)+choker(fashion) don't really mirror cuffs+wristband, they better mirror wristband(any worn item)+bracelet(fashion). One of the motivations behind the recent changes to these traits was to move characters away from the collar trait which has become an ambiguous catch-all. As for whether it's illogical to have shirt collar as an alias of choker, that was just done for simplicity, but nutellafan previously mentioned that she could potentially make a child trait for it. I'm personally fine with either solution. It's true that there are plenty of characters with a detached shirt collar. That said, at least to me, it's not always easy to distinguish them from chokers; it's easy for the ultra-standardized type of shirt collar with a lapel (not sure if that's the correct term) that forms a kind of "W" shape like Astaroth Ishigami Sae Alice and is part of many maid/bunny outfits, but it's not as clear-cut when I look at characters like Ema Airin (link) Basil Marigold Feena Fam Earthlight.

Edit - While I'm at it, let me just say thanks to @1235 nutellafan for the recent trait changes. I've been focusing on characters from popular nukige, since the biggest contrast is between chokers and BDSM collars and I hope to set a visible precedent. I'll add some characters to the Death Game Accessory trait in the near future too.Last modified on 2017-10-21 at 17:49
#1240 by wakaranai
2017-10-21 at 22:02
Keep in mind that collar refers to any band of material around the neck.
yes, and a choker is a much more specific kind of collar, it's a tight band around neck. things that look like detached shirt collar are not chokers.
don't really mirror cuffs+wristband, they better mirror wristband(any worn item)+bracelet(fashion)
i disagree. analogue of bracelet would be Necklace, not a choker.
hierarchy looks like this:
Clothes > Accessories and Others > Cuffs
Clothes > Accessories and Others > Bands > Wristband
Clothes > Accessories and Others > Jewellery > Bracelet

similarly, before recent changes that somewhat messed things up, neck accessories hierarchy were and should look alike:

Clothes > Accessories and Others > Collar (it's not jewelery, it's garment)
Clothes > Accessories and Others > Bands > Choker
Clothes > Accessories and Others > Jewellery > Necklace

That said, at least to me, it's not always easy to distinguish them from chokers
it's pretty easy to tell them apart if you go by current definition. if it looks like a close-fitting band, then it's a choker. i hope we don't have to delve into semantics of what is band and what isn't.
#1241 by armony
2017-10-21 at 23:28
things that look like detached shirt collar are not chokers
I agree, and I think that Detachable Shirt Collar deserves to be a separate trait, especially since Cuffs exist as a separate trait from Wristband/Bracelet.
#1242 by wakaranai
2017-10-22 at 19:06
^i'm fine with both Detachable Shirt Collar being alias of Collar or a separate trait as long as it's not mixed up with Choker.
#1243 by sakurakoi
2017-10-23 at 06:07
Is this a thing that is more common in bishoujo games? To put so much emphasis on the grade? All that extra fluff in those descriptions seems a bit much for such a simple trait.
a) plenty of comedy, drama, romance, action &c name the grade which has subtile if not major effects on the characters, their actions and their surroundings.
b) why does it have to be "so much emphasis" to be a trait?
c) that's not an argument, like seriously, just no.

by the by, High School Student is one of the most applied roles, if not even the most, ~20% of characters are high school students (possibly more because empty/incomplete characters) at one point (and yes, it is even neat to know if the story includes more than one school year). I was just surprised for a sec that Acquaintance has apparently nearly as many when I have never seen it really used, turns out is has a lot of child traits.

And isn't training more of a non-conish or forceful thing? like with Sexual Slavery (Choukyou Variation).
I already explained how it is different and merely commonly but again, not solely used in any kind of slavery. Please actually tell me what exactly you did not understand.
It's more than just simple education.
How is sexual education/training more than simple education?
The point of the trait "merely" is to present that characters who was inexperienced in "explicit" sexual activity got deliberately trained/educated by someone (possibly themselves and more than any sane school sex ed allows... and plenty of anime schools are insane) instead of just getting used to it by doing it naturally, picking techniques up along the way, just seeking more pleasure on the spot &c.

And you can't really train yourself in something like sex where it's about teaching to please a partner.
#1244 by tapestree
2017-10-23 at 20:53
Just to be clear (in case my comment about it not being clear-cut was misconstrued), I'm also totally fine with detachable (or maybe detached would be a better term? detachable may be a little different) shirt collar as a separate trait. That's actually what makes the most sense to me. I remember savagetiger also mentioned earlier that it could be worth adding if there are 10+ characters it applies to, and there certainly are.
#1245 by savagetiger
2017-10-24 at 01:08
I just mean all that extra fluff about clubs and bonds and elections and college worries doesn't apply to every character and is a little excessive for a simple this is the grade they are in school trait.
I guess I just don't see it as super important to a character and none of the games I have played with teen characters have put that much emphasis on school grade beyond basic age differences.
But I guess there are some games that make it a bigger deal.

I don't really play nukige so it probably doesn't mean much, but I always got the impression that training is more than just teaching to like sex in a broad sense and is a bit more sinister.
So I guess that description should wait to get more input from people who actually play those kinds of games.
#1246 by tapestree
2017-10-26 at 05:36
@nutellafan I just noticed that the Death Game Accessory trait has the phrase "with lethal functions designed to force them into participating in a death game". So both "lethal" and "death game" seem to be hard requirements. With that in mind, I'm not sure whether it can be applied to the characters in euphoria. I actually haven't played euphoria, but from what I've read, the collar only knocks the wearers unconscious, albeit for the sake of taking away and killing one of them for breaking a rule. Also, I don't know if euphoria counts as a death game, since I can't find any reliable definition of "death game"; people die in it, but (I think?) only if they break rules, not as a necessary or desired part of the game itself.

My personal preference would be for the trait description to be a little looser so that death game isn't a hard requirement (which could also let it cover Ichika from Collar x Malice). But if the current stricter description is more desirable, just let me know whether DGA or choker would better apply to euphoria's characters.Last modified on 2017-10-26 at 05:37
#1247 by warfoki
2017-11-07 at 01:53
I dug up this thread to ask about the only two traits left in the queue:

Paladin - Now, I know that we have a tag counterpart for this. Honestly though, I kinda planned to give that one the axe too a long time now. Here's the issue: we already have knight. Paladins are a DnD staple that have pretty much nothing to do with real life paladins. So the character type doesn't really make sense outside of western high fantasy settings. Pretty much all of the characters that fit the description can be tagged with knight already. Yeah, I know that historically speaking, knight was a social rank as much as a type of warrior, if not more. But we are not talking about historical reality here. In anime / manga / VNs if a character has a sword (normal or magitech), some shiny armor and fights for some lofty ideals, then they are usually referred to as knights, historical realism be damned.

Feminization - This has been stuck in the queue for an eternity now. And I can see why. On one hand, I think this trait has some value to it, as this is a real fetish, one that is way more popular than some of the obscure shit we have traits for. So it seems logical to have a trait for it. Problem is, while feminization is quite easily identifiable irl, this is not that easy in VN-land where magical gender-shifts and males acting like females for plot conveniences exist in abundance. I get that the description is detailed, problem is that nobody reads those. So I have a feeling that as is this trait will be misused to hell and back.Last modified on 2017-11-07 at 01:58
#1248 by tapestree
2017-11-07 at 03:40
Maybe instead of feminization, a better term would be "transitioning" (with feminization as a possible alias). Wikipedia entry: Transitioning (transgender) Because the definition there seems to be in line with the one in the Feminization trait description, ignoring politically correct details like "personal decision" (which clashes with many nukige where a person is brainwashed or threatened into changing themselves).Last modified on 2017-11-07 at 03:41
#1249 by savagetiger
2017-11-07 at 22:58
It's really not a good idea to mix actual transgender stuff with fetishistic feminization which most of the applicable vn's probably are.
#1250 by tapestree
2017-11-08 at 01:35
I don't think a character's perception of their gender is less valid if they're in a nukige. If you take a look at the Feminization trait description, what's described there is, essentially, transitioning.

Edit - It's worth pointing out that the word "feminization" is a broad and vague term, yet the trait Feminization itself is defined narrowly. (Not to mention it's "engage in", when it should be "subject to".) Try to ignore the loaded word "feminization" here, since the trait submitter only used it for lack of a better word. In the first place, this small discussion began because warfoki pointed out that there's a clash between the trait description and the trait name, so I offered an alternate trait name.Last modified on 2017-11-08 at 01:47


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