Traits

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#1551 by eacil
2018-12-08 at 17:59
Cowper's fluid? No, I know... writer's bullshit? There is no trait for that.Last modified on 2018-12-08 at 17:59
#1552 by silence
2018-12-09 at 04:03
I proposed the Living Wand trait a long ago. I was stupid. As you can see it's not popular. Now, when we have Sentient Object, I believe the wand should gone. By the way, there are the cases when the Sentient Object and Construct will confront.

Another question is Opposite Gender Dubbing. The word 'dubbed' in the description should be replaced with 'voiced'. And... man, this a release-spesific (and even VN-cpecific) trait. Same character might be voiced by different actors in different VNs or releases. Are you gonna wait for precedent?Last modified on 2018-12-09 at 04:04
#1553 by gregory
2018-12-09 at 05:22
Since the bisexual trait was approved, do I tag characters ONLY with bisexual sex, or for a guy I tag Men with Men sex AND bisexual sex?
#1554 by warfoki
2018-12-09 at 05:39
@Batoo: I'm fairly lenient with sexual traits, but even then a line must be drawn at some point, and a specific tag for this thing is not gonna make the cut. And nothing we have right now really fits it, so just leave it untagged.

@silence: Deleted the trait. I know that there COULD be potential issues with Opposite Gender Voiced (name changes btw), and it also doesn't really fit under Talking Patterns either, but there is clearly a demand for a way to find characters that are voiced by a different gender actor than the characters' in game sex. Overwhelming majority of these characters are traps. If you search for non-trap characters with the trait (link) all you're gonna find is untagged traps (Evan Armalite), transsexuals (Alice) and very androgynous (Amada Ken) characters. So it's pretty much always a conscious casting choice to cast someone of the opposite gender, as such the trait not being applicable on some releases might be possible, but it's definitely not going to be common. And considering that we have no better way of doing this sorting, the trait stays for now. In this specific case I think the trait has enough utility to make it worth keeping, despite having some problems with it.

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Alright, so I'd like to ask some input on some traits:

Bisexual Sex - I tentatively approved it, but I'm really not sure if that was a good decision on my end. I was just sick of it sitting in the queue. So I still have my issues from a month ago when I first addressed this trait, to quote:

Bisexual Sex - In theory it makes perfect sense. Like we have Homosexual and Lesbian Sex separated. In practice I feel that this trait would be used for characters partaking in orgies or female characters getting gang raped at the same time. Which, in my opinion, makes the trait kinda useless as a way to search for characters who actually engage in bisexual sex. Plus, there's the issue with futanaris...

The reason I still approved it is because I think it might be useful to have a way for characters who have sex with both genders. I'm not sure how useful this'll actually be, considering that I expect majority of the characters tagged will have Bisexual Sex in context of an orgy / gang rape, but, well, we'll see. Let'S say it's in test mode, if I see the trait being not-so-useful, it can get the axe later, regardless of how many entries are tagged.

Also, just to be clear on this: Bisexual Sex and Lesbian Sex / Men with Men Sex are NOT mutually exclusive. Lesbian Sex is applicable whenever a female has sex with another female without a male in the mix, regardless whether the same character has sex with male(s) as well at some other point. In fact, the only way for Bisexual Sex to be tagged without Lesbian Sex or Men with Men Sex being relevant, is if sex with a same sex partner always happens as a part of a group sex of mixed genders. Now that I think about it, I should probably edit this bit into the description (even though nobody reads those)...

Oiran - So, I get that this is different from a normal Prostitute and all... but do we really need this? I know you've linked how Geisha and Oiran are not the same thing, but if people search for something like this, they will search for Geisha, not Oiran, because the former kinda entered the western base of common knowledge thanks to Memories of a Geisha, while this is the first time I've ever heard of Oiran myself, even though I have more info on Japanese things than your average Joe westerner. In other words, nobody will search for this and the people finding the trait on characters will be mostly confused by it if anything.

Pregnancy (by other) - I'm fine with this trait, but it kinda needs a better name to make the consensual part crystal clear, otherwise this will be misused to hell and back and Consensual Out-of-relationship Pregnancy seems too much of a mouthful...

Geminus - So, first of all, this is not a child trait for Alter Ego. The entire point of Alter Ego is that we have two personalities in one body, voluntarily or not. This is two, non-related people looking more or less the exact same. Secondarily, Geminus is a weird name. Googling it I found nothing of this phenomenon. So it probably needs a better name.

Damaged Hymen - Well, this is a lot more applicable than the submitter's previous dumpster fire attempts with traits like Technical Virgin. I'm still not quite sure if we actually need it though. Also, putting it under both Not a Virgin and Virgin Sex is just... wrong.

Weak to Alcohol - I dunno, I can see this being a thing, but... it seems ill fitting under Features. But I'm not sure where else to put it then...

Imouto Complex, Otouto Complex & Pedophile - Oh, boy, here we go again. So lolicon, shotacon and the likes have been discussed, discarded and so on to death over the years. It's not a simple oversight that we don't have those traits. In fact, there was a long discussion over them years back: t6225. As you might have guessed, that went absolutely nowhere in the end and we kinda just... didn't add any such traits.Last modified on 2018-12-09 at 06:07
#1555 by sakurakoi
2018-12-09 at 06:36
In practice I feel that this trait would be used for characters partaking in orgies or female characters getting gang raped at the same time.

it should not be used though, to apply characters would actually need to physically and sexually interact with both sexes during orgies, group sex and alike. This might be worth highlighting in the description. After all, especially few males do anything but talk with other males during group sex, they do not lay hand on each other, kiss or whatever.

Weak to Alcohol - I dunno, I can see this being a thing, but... it seems ill fitting under Features. But I'm not sure where else to put it then...
Pretty sure it can be even more so seen as personality trait than Opposite Gender Voiced which'd be more of a body feature actually. For it Opposite Gender Voiced more dependent on the body than on the mind and deliberately talking in an higher-pitched voice.

In other words, nobody will search for this and the people finding the trait on characters will be mostly confused by it if anything.
Well, mayhaps the alias Courtesan would be more applicable and more significant if it just denotes "high class prostitutes" but I am not that into Prostitution to really tell the difference between the "jobs" and where the lines are.

As you might have guessed, that went absolutely nowhere in the end and we kinda just... didn't add any such traits.
Back then you should have just stuck to "This character has "this" outspoken and specific fetish, neither interpretation nor pseudo-scientific analysis of their being ever considered. They blatantly tell that, nothing more and nothing less"...

I should probably edit this bit into the description (even though nobody reads those)
even if that was the case, it is still necessary to make a point when arguments and wars happen. It's better to argue about and for/against a definition than have interpretations flying around~
#1556 by barfboy
2018-12-09 at 07:19
Someone else created Geminus
to help me when I asked what to do to explain people that are ... not clone people?

To explain
Maihama Kotone
and
Rira

(likewise Lisianthus and Kikyou )
Rira is split off from Kotone. Rira gets the memories and goddess powers, Kotone is human and has only her old childhood memories. So they're not clones, they're not copies, they've become separate individuals created from a whole.

Much the same way Captain Kirk split into his good and evil half or Nana in Shichinin no Nana where individually each Nana has her own personality but they were all once members of a whole.

It doesn't need a trait if it's not useful. I was just looking for how to tag it. I can't think of many examples.
#1557 by barfboy
2018-12-09 at 07:33
I see half human was rejected.

Karen Uruputasu
is half human. She hates being half human. She's caught between two worlds and never felt she belonged in heaven and is desperately trying to prove herself because she feels tainted by her human half.

So ... we don't care about people born of two worlds, struggling with identity, being only part of something they love and part of something they hate.

It's a vital part of who she is, it's an important aspect of her character and the entire plot of her story but fuck it, right?
#1558 by warfoki
2018-12-09 at 08:39
So, take a step back and actually address (objectively) the points I made in the footnotes. There's a reason why I add those you know. That or don't expect me to reconsider its deletion as I have zero fucks to give about your attempt to emotionally guilt-trip me into caring about you not being able to tag something on your waifu's profile.

As for the Geminus trait: this then seems to be yet another case of super specific trait made specifically for one VN / character...
#1559 by savagetiger
2018-12-09 at 09:34
About Half Human
There is Half-elf and Hanyou that refer to characters, but instead of adding other half-demon, angel, genie or whatever monster traits, half-human would cover more cases.
People already proposed Hybrid and Half-orc so there's a want for tagging these situations.

btw Color blindness needs to be properly capitalized.
#1560 by skorpiondeath
2018-12-09 at 12:32
@warfoki: ok I agree maybe oiran is overly specific but why not rename it to Geisha since I agree is more commonly known term and put "Courtesan", "Oiran" and "Yuujo" as an alias? I wanted to tag Oiran Rouge with it. The idea was to separate the common prostitute on the street or JK having sex in a public toilet from the kimono courtesan. Ofc nothing is 100% needed.
#1561 by batoo
2018-12-09 at 12:48
#1554 @AskOfHelp Ah! Finally a concrete answer! Thank you, I will leave it untagged.Last modified on 2018-12-09 at 13:47
#1562 by warfoki
2018-12-09 at 13:12
@Savagetiger: I maintain that half-human is simply too broad to be used. Suggestion: I restore half-human as a meta trait. We would have the following structure:

Half-Human (meta trait)

---Half Non-Human Humanoid (yeah, mouthful, no, I don't have a better name)
------Half-Orc
------Half-Elf
------Half-Dwarf
------[...]

---Half-Monster
------Half-Youkai
------[...]

---Half-Alien
---Half-Angel
---Half-Demon
---Demigod

So, how's that sound? Not quite sure about the specifics of the trait tree there, but something along these lines.

@Skorpiondeath: Hmm, how about "High-class Prostitute" with all of that as aliases?Last modified on 2018-12-09 at 13:18
#1563 by sakurakoi
2018-12-09 at 13:28
attempt to emotionally guilt-trip me into caring about you not being able to tag something on your waifu's profile.
the irony when one follows the link and sees that this oh-so-emotional backstory belongs to a Nukige~

Seriously, Half-Blood (always actually make the meta/parent-trait first before specific cases) would be a trait fairly frequently used and noteworthy in other titles... with one book literary having the term in the title. Mixed Heritage may also be a fair trait. This can cover anything from someone being a mix of Chinese and whatever European country to Dragons breeding with Slimes (and their children actually being characters). This parent trait can then contain frequent specific mixes like Half-elf, Demigod (the second irony considering the above case, a hat-trick if you consider who added the trait) or just Half-Japanese.

Description would very likely be this:
Mixed Blood
The character has unique features of two or more distinct races or populations and can be identified to belong to them by characters within the work. Whether they are just Half-Japanese, had an elf and human as parent (Half-elf) or consumed the flesh of a dragon, as a slime, gaining dragon powers in return. (Semi-)Artificial Lifeforms like Cyborg do not count.
#1564 by warfoki
2018-12-09 at 13:38
Ok, no, we are NOT mixing fully human characters with parents from different countries and mixed species characters who have a human and a whatever other creature as parents. That would be even more broad and just... uselessly vague. Not to mention them being different concepts and tropes for different story types.Last modified on 2018-12-09 at 13:38
#1565 by batoo
2018-12-09 at 13:47
#1554 @AboutTraits Maybe put Damaged Hymen under Virgin Sex is enough, Fukamachi Sachi is a good character example for this trait. Because from what I understood from the definition, the girl is still a virgin but deflowered herself for multiple possible reasons other than sex with someone. So her situation is more compatible with Virgin Sex than Not a Virgin (and I think it's a good start, much better than Technical Virgin. Personaly, I approve this trait, from my point of view of user).
This is a trait that can be helpful in explaining why some characters do not bleed on their first time. If this trait is seen as useless, then it will also be necessary to think of the usefulness of the trait Regenerative Hymen which plays - in a way - the same role of precision (although this one is the precision of a multiple defloration).

It's me who created Geminus, who is a latin word and means "Double". Why latin? Because it is still the international standard to use Latin to name things related to sciences (fiction or not). There is no other reason (Alter Ego is also a Latin word and it does not trouble anyone).

Why such a trait? To be able to give a name to the role of the characters who are another version of himself (physicaly separated, not two different personalities living in the same body!) and whos are neither clones (artificial or supernatural), nor "illusions" (like the doubling techniques that create duplicates of the original character) and not "twins".

Did you see Back to the Future 3 when Jennifer (young) meets in the future Jennifer (old)? Here, Jennifer (young) who is the one we follow since the beginning of the film meets her Geminus (double) in the person of Jennifer (old). The Geminus can also be a double coming from an alternative dimension as in the recent anime The Girl in Twilight (Asuka & Asuka, as well as many other examples) and is applicable to all concerned characters.

I purposely cite only non-VN media for you to image it better, but there are also many examples in VNs! Astraythem is full of Geminus!

I want to keep the name of Geminus as it is. By cons, we can all try to find Aliases so that people find it easier. And I agree now that it can be related with Alter Ego because it's different ^^

For Bisexual Sex, I don't know how to use that... It's related for characters who have Group Sex with a member of the opposite sex and the other with the same sex as him/her right? For example, on this pic, the girls have that trait but not the boy?

For Weak to Alcohol, it is a trait that has a relationship with the Body that's for sure. On the other hand, I see it more as being a "biological peculiarity", like allergies and all.Last modified on 2018-12-09 at 14:00
#1566 by gregory
2018-12-09 at 13:55
No, #1565 bisexual sex would be if the girls after they had sex with the man, had sex with each other. It would also count after the man had sex with the girls, he had sex with another man.

I know there's a better way to write the description, but this is what I meant when I created the tag.Last modified on 2018-12-09 at 13:56
#1567 by skorpiondeath
2018-12-09 at 13:58
@warfoki: ok go for "High-class Prostitute" with aliases!
#1568 by warfoki
2018-12-09 at 14:01
Ugh, I'm tending more and more towards just deleting Bisexual Sex after all, I can already see this being a headache...

@Batoo: I know that you've requested the trait, mods can see that on the edit page. I think you are missing the point with the naming though: Latin is... not the common language of the world, not fora long tiime now. A lot of latin words are kept in English for historical reasons (alter ego is one of those), but I don't see geminus used used for this concept anywhere whatsoever, it kinda seems like you've made it up and used a latin word just because. That's not how that works. I need a name that people can actually associate with the definition.
#1569 by batoo
2018-12-09 at 14:02
#1566 Oh, I think I start to understand.
You mean that can apply when a girl has a threesome but who continue to have sex with the girl after the guy is completely done right (there are other examples of course like the girl/boy has sex with a boy and switch after with a girl)?

#1568 I do not know about the New World but Latin is still the norm of the Old World lol x)
Especially since english regresses a lot in the non-Germanic countries in Europe to the benefit of spanish, french, german and russian (at the extreme west of Europe for russian). Even Saarland prefers to let their children learn french rather than english lol

Use "Double" then, no? It's maybe better understandable and you let Geminus in Aliases and we try to complete it better all together.Last modified on 2018-12-09 at 14:23
#1570 by warfoki
2018-12-09 at 14:06
@Batoo & Gregory: Okay, we are NOT making such a distinction if the trait is to stay. It's hard to police, not obvious from the name alone, would make the trait misused to hell and back. Simply put, if the character has sex with both man and woman, the trait applies. Whether it's two separate scenes with no group sex, or getting spit-roasted by a man and woman with a strap-on, the trait applies all the same. That, or I just delete it, because any more restricted use would cause massive mistagging.Last modified on 2018-12-09 at 14:11
#1571 by gregory
2018-12-09 at 14:09
nvm wrote it after you said thisLast modified on 2018-12-09 at 14:11
#1572 by warfoki
2018-12-09 at 14:11
I have a better idea. I'll just add Lesbian Sex Only and Male-on-Male Sex Only traits as child traits to the already existing traits. So if someone wants to search for characters having sex separately with both genders, then can just search for the respective same sex trait while excluding the "X only" child trait. Would be clearer than this mess. Opinions?

Edit: Welp, this was my answer to your now deleted comment.Last modified on 2018-12-09 at 14:24
#1573 by gregory
2018-12-09 at 14:12
That works a lot better, thanks^^
#1574 by warfoki
2018-12-09 at 14:13
Okay, then let's delete it now before it gets used too much.
#1575 by barfboy
2018-12-09 at 14:46
I'm sorry, I should not have gotten upset. I needed to sleep first. I was just flabbergasted.

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