Traits

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#1726 by blue
2019-06-16 at 22:00
Now that I’ve droned on for more than enough about that bothersome String Ribbon Tie trait, there is one more (unfortunately also a ribbon) trait that I need your opinion on, when you have the time, before I feel in the clear to start working on edits again.

Hair Ribbon has been distracting me every time I came across it during editing and I've wondered if it should become a Meta Trait, with any potential use of it being redirected to one of its two child traits instead.

My reason for this comes from the issue that I have with the perceived vagueness and redundancy of the Hair Ribbon trait alone, where it may not be specific enough to stand on its own as a usable parent trait over its two synonymous but also better-defined child traits, Ribbon Hair Tie and Ribbon Hair Accessory. These two traits are both specific and do an even better job at fufilling Hair Ribbon’s needed specification because they contrast each other while still automatically being included under their Hair Ribbon parent trait, leaving little room for any confusion or vagueness.

On the other hand, I have in the past experienced some confusion when trying to specify a ribbon found in a character’s hair because Hair Ribbon kept showing up as an unnecessary option next to the two more specified Ribbon Hair Tie and Ribbon Hair Accessory traits.

I understand that one good argument against my proposition to turn Hair Ribbon into a Meta Trait would be because of the sheer number of characters who have already been granted this trait as well as the sheer number of characters who would be decoupled from this trait if it turned Meta. But what does your discretion say? Let me know what you think.Last modified on 2019-06-17 at 18:00
#1727 by blue
2019-06-17 at 19:10
Please add the initial sentence to Dating trait should it meet with approval:

"This character goes on a date with another character."

I apologize for failing to do this in the first place before submitting this trait.Last modified on 2019-06-17 at 19:10
#1728 by skorpiondeath
2019-06-20 at 12:19
@warfoki: some other changes to align traits to their counterpart tags:
- Gag should be also under Sexual Devices like his counterpart tag Mouth Gag
- Chastity Belt should be also under Sexual Devices like his counterpart tag Chastity Belt
#1729 by sy74kya
2019-06-20 at 18:36
Appears Only In Flashbacks should be in Role not Subject Of. Could also shorten to Flashback.
#1730 by barfboy
2019-06-23 at 03:20
Can 'Chibi' be removed from Short so we can have an actual chibi trait to describe permanent chibi characters like the guardians in Guardian ☆ Place ~Do S na Imouto to 3-nin no Yome~

Examples
Kuzunoha
Onikirimaru
ZephyrusLast modified on 2019-06-23 at 03:20
#1731 by barfboy
2019-06-23 at 03:40
I love your idea on Ribbons Blue, especially since I've been dying to describe these ribbon hair ties, ribbon wraps? something.
Kareha
#1732 by warfoki
2019-06-23 at 11:48
@Skorpiondeath

Done. Also, I'm unsure your two of your recent tag / trait suggestions.

Sex in Photo Booth - Do we really need this? I'm okay with adding very generic/ common (at least in hentai-land) locations for sex to be taggable (like beach, or classroom), but this doesn't seem to be THAT common and I really don't want to start tagging any and all possible locations for sex that are featured in like half a dozen VNs at the very most, because that would lead to a WAY overbloated Location (and its tag counterpart) for no good reason and I really don't want to open the floodgates for potential dozens, hell in the very long run, 100+ useless location traits.

Multiple Fisting Penetration - Not with this description:
Multiple fisting penetration refers to one person being sexually penetrated by fist in both vagina and anus at the same time, by the same or different person.

Nothing, and I mean NOTHING implies this specifically in the name of the trait. In fact, considering that every other multiple penetration with no specifics mean multiple penetration by X in any conventional or non-conventional (Nipple Insertion & Navel Penetration) body orifices, it arguably implies the exact opposite. I don't really know how to rename it though. I mean, "Simultaneous Vaginal and Anal Fisting" is an option, but that sounds kinda... silly.

________________________

@Sy74kya

I honestly don't see how it fits there better, but since you are not, by a long shot, the first one requesting this, I moved that trait accordingly. I'm not renaming it: characters who are very much present in the actual VN can be present in flashbacks too, and with the shortened name people would tag those, as people don't read the description of tags / traits if they think they know what they are about based on their name alone.

________________________

@Barfboy

Added Chibi Only.


As for Kareha, I honestly can't decide if that ribbon is attached to her hair or her beret. If the latter Clothing with Ribbons applies, if the former it's Ribbon Hair Accessory.

________________________

@Blue

Hair Ribbon - Well, yeah, you are pretty much spot on why it still exists as is: making it a meta trait would, if I remember correctly, remove all applications from the character pages, which would hit ~1500 character pages, which have Hair Ribbon tagged and not one of the two child traits. There's also another, lot less important, consideration though: characters where you simply cannot tell if that ribbon ties up their hair or is just an ornament on a pin or something. This is mostly relevant for old VNs, where you would have a low resolution frontal portrait and nothing else, so you can clearly tell that the character has a ribbon, but no way to see it from any other angle to tell if it actually keeps their hair together or not.Last modified on 2019-06-23 at 12:18
#1733 by blue
2019-06-23 at 12:00
Thank you for that, Barfboy. Though I should really try harder to balance being detailed in expressing my thoughts with being concise. Warfoki and the other moderators are busy people and I doubt having to read long posts would do them much of a favor.

As for your link, that is quite a unique example of how to tie a ribbon in the hair -- I've never seen it before. I would agree to "ribbon wraps" being a new hair ribbon trait, most likely going under Ribbon Hair Tie.
#1734 by blue
2019-06-23 at 12:12
I had suspected that much with the Hair Ribbon trait. The best move from here is to simply avoid the trait and turn to using Ribbon Hair Tie and Ribbon Hair Accessory instead.

I vaguely remember similar complaints about the Collar trait before and turning that into a Meta trait would result in the same mass severance, even if the issues with this trait are not exactly the same. I only use this trait if the collar appears to be cloth. Leather or metal jewelery would be Choker.
#1735 by warfoki
2019-06-23 at 12:25
FYI, I have no problem with detailed posts, if anything it helps addressing things.

I admit that your way overly polite / respectful mannerisms are kinda weird to see on the internet though, where people tend to just not bother with such things in general. I don't hate it or consider it "wrong", so I'm not dissing you for it, it just kinda sticks out. And makes me a feel a bit awkward, but that's on me. I can't really handle people being super respectful with me irl either, it weirds me out because there's a gigantic chasm in between the attributes of a deeply respectable person and how I see myself. So whenever I'm at the receiving end of such manners, my instinctive reaction is "ok, they are trying way too hard to butter me up, the fuck they REALLY want?" Then again, that's just my bitter cynicism showing.Last modified on 2019-06-23 at 12:27
#1736 by blue
2019-06-23 at 13:01
If you feel you are being cynical then you have your reasons since the grim reality of this world will darken your mood more often than lift your spirits. I just see you as a well-grounded person with a good sense of judgement so there is little reason not to show respect, or common courtesy to anyone else here in general. I will be more leveled about it however so don't worry.

As for me, I don't have any other motives here than to apply contributions to the best of my discretion, mostly around the titles that interest me. I am fairly head-over-heels for this beautifully designed website and constantly working on something here has become my favorite pastime.

If there is anything that I need to discuss, I'll at least try to be concise from now on unless it really needs to be detailed.Last modified on 2019-06-23 at 13:13
#1737 by warfoki
2019-06-23 at 14:56
I didn't try to imply that you'd have any nefarious hidden agenda, sorry if it came through that way. I'm just... not a people person. Especially not in any context where a strict etiquette is expected... been in one of those borderline high-society gatherings once after placing high in a national competition way back, and man that was the most awkward time of my life, never before or since have I felt so much like a fish out of water and wanted to just sink into the ground and disappear. And yes, that includes my teenage attempts at romance...

But anyway, back on topic, since I forget to address Dating and its tag counterpart. I think the idea is good, we have a ton of stories with romance, but even with those, having a date is not always a thing. However, there are some issues here.

1) While it makes sense to consider dating as a verbalized version of "date", there are some different connotations. Dating is often used as a generic way to say you are romantically involved with someone. "I date X" is something that a lot of people would say even if they are not actually going out for dates, but just are together. In a way "dating" kinda became a synonym for "romance". I think a lot of people would use it in that sense, which would ultimately lead to a too vague interpretation of the tag and a whole lot of mistagging.

2) What do we consider a date? Like, you made a very apt description that can apply to real life, but one of the most common anime tropes is that one or both parties refuse to admit that they are romantically interested in another, and instead they just "happen" to make plans where they are "coincidentally" alone together for some purpose, which in no way or shape is supposed to be a date... except the rest of the cast and the reader both see it as one, and the former ends up teasing the would be donkan / tsundere couple about it. By you description, this technically wouldn't count as a date.

To put it simply, the tag is kinda vague and hard to draw hard lines dor in the world of VNs, where romance works based on fictional tropes and not realism.
#1738 by sakurakoi
2019-06-23 at 15:04
Sex in Photo Booth - Do we really need this? I'm okay with adding very generic/ common (at least in hentai-land) locations for sex to be taggable (like beach, or classroom), but this doesn't seem to be THAT common
It's actually not that uncommon either and alas it sure makes for a neat scene. Three I recall on top of my head: (obviously NSFW)
link (Lovely no Hentai Nikki ~Chijo ni Naritai Onnanoko~)
link (Grisaia no Meikyuu)
link (Aitsu ni Choukyou Sareru to Do M na Watashi wa Kanjichau)
Needless to say, given the other examples as well, 4 out of 6 are a (double) peace (no necessarily with ahegao).

Primary reason to add this: It is quite a fetish which combines certain factors and something people will search for (more so than Sex on the Beach/Classroom).

"Simultaneous Vaginal and Anal Fisting" is an option, but that sounds kinda... silly.
Well, at most you could leave the "Simultaneous" out since the system heavily implies that it must be at the same time anyway (a + instead of and might also work but considering the system it'd be out of place). Otherwise "Fisting (Both Holes)" might work since after all, technically there are only two holes that do get fisted (and otherwise that's what the description is there for). Only a fool would think "Both holes? I'm sure the trait means that both nipples get fisted!"
#1739 by warfoki
2019-06-23 at 15:18
Hmm, I guess I just haven't realized how common it is, considering that it's hard to discern that they are in a photo-booth if I just go through the gallery on exhentai (which is what I usually do).

"Both holes? I'm sure the trait means that both nipples get fisted!"

It could mean that. And yes, I've seen examples of that. Also urethral fisting, showing a fist up in someone's dick and so on. Hentai tends not to give a shit about biology and physics when it comes to making hardcore and bizarre scenes.
#1740 by skorpiondeath
2019-06-23 at 16:43
I just got the time to answer and I just saw everything got approved. I like the way you renamed Multiple Fisting Penetration in Vaginal + Anal Fisting it's easier to understand.
About the photo-booth trait I find it quite common in VN involving gyaru theme.

1 last fix:
Forniphilia shold be aligned to Human FurnitureLast modified on 2019-06-23 at 16:46
#1741 by warfoki
2019-06-23 at 16:55
Done.
#1742 by skorpiondeath
2019-06-23 at 23:32
@warfoki: since you revised the group sex trait, what should I use when futanari or dickigirls are involved?
Should I leave the generic "group sex" trait or should we have at least a "futanari group sex" trait or "sex with futanari"? I guess we don't want every variant of the "one futanari several females, males, etc..."
#1743 by blue
2019-06-24 at 00:00
That is quite a backstory you have, Warfoki. I would not have guessed that I would be the one to remind you of those uncomfortable past situations. I just hope that they do not weigh on you too much these days. Now, for the difficult part.

The Dating trait's meaning for use here is turning out to be far more tricky than the in the typical, real-life sense. You are rather keen to have rooted it out so quickly, though I remain quite challenged by the idea of making this trait work against all of its present odds.

The word "dating" is frequently used as a synonym for having entered a romantic relationship with someone. Though not all people who are romantically/sexually involved 'go out' on dates, at least in its general social meeting sense. I have also seen this trait used other times (though less frequently) to simply mean meeting up and hanging out between friends and acquaintances.

Perhaps this trait should be restricted to the more typical romantic dating sense, as I will try to explain.

While dating can also mean being in a romantic relationship together, this tag can be meant specifically for characters who are both clearly in or approaching a romantic relationship and agree on actively engaging together in activities typical of dating couples (such as meeting up to strengthen/maintain romantic bonds by socializing, playing together, having lunch/picnics together). This is regardless of whether they are open about it or not (e.g. dating between individuals who are straightforwardly romantic VS dating a tsundere, especially Modern Tsundere, who participates in said typical romantic dating activities while downplaying or outright denying that they are romantic.)Last modified on 2019-06-24 at 01:00
#1744 by warfoki
2019-06-24 at 01:52
@Blue

Again, the main problem is not the description, we can specify that to hell and back, but people won't read it. They'll be like "blah, of course I know what dating is, who even needs to read the definition for that" and tag away without a care in the world.

You are rather keen to have rooted it out so quickly, though I remain quite challenged by the idea of making this trait work against all of its present odds.

I mean, doing this shit for 6+ years now kinda helps with that. Protip for making tags / traits: question how can this be misused above how can this be properly used. That's honestly the more important question. A harmless tag that seems useless has a way higher chance to get my approval, than a potentially useful one that is prone to misuse.

@Skorpiondeath

Well, there's no such distinction among the tags either. Generally, futanaris are treated as female. (eg. it's Futanari Heroine, not Futanari Hero or Futanari Love Interest.) If you browse through the things tagged with Futanari Heroine, you'll find quite a few applications of one or more of the lesbian tags to describe their sexual relations. I understand that this is not ideal (after all, someone searching for lesbian sex probably doesn't want to be greeted by huge dicks), but because of the undefined, fantastic nature of futanaris, it's next to impossible to come up with something else. There are some futanaris who look kinda androgynous, and actually have a full set of genitals: vagina, impregnable womb, balls and a cock. Basically hermaphrodites. These are extremely rare though. Futanaris are almost always look, act, sound and dress as women, just got a dick attached. As such they are, in general, treated as women.

There's also the problem of how their anatomy works. For example we have Mamiya Nanae: looks like a woman, no dick. But when she gets excited, she suddenly grows a gigantic penis that is large enough so that she can easily suck herself off without bending over. If she is not aroused, said dick is not there AT ALL. That actually is a fairly common way to handle futanari characters actually. Like Beruze is wearing skin tight latex leotard in the character picture, like you can see her cameltoe ffs. This (NSFW, obviously) is how she looks when aroused. This is so common, that I had to spend a good 10 minutes to find a character profile where this was NOT the case (Ka○né).

Then there are the non-futanari female characters with Penis Growth. How to tag them? Especially since with the heavily mosaiced art, it's sometimes hard to see if that's a penis or an enlarged clitoris. They are not futanaris, even by the very flimsy definition we have for them, but they are still sporting a dick / dick like clitoris, so not exactly lesbian content either if they get it on like that with woman.

Now, you could say that "who gives a shit about all that, if it's a chick with a dick during the sex scene, it's a futanari and not a woman". While there is some charm to such simplicity, it's ultimately a flawed approach, especially for traits: we are tagging characters, not scenes primarily. If a character is tagged as female in one scene and as futanari in another without going through a genderbending, then that's just going to cause confusion in the long run. Hell, there's a reason why we only have a low number of, very specific futanari related sexual tags and why we don't treat futanaris as a third gender even among the tags, despite Futanari Heroine being around for a fucking decade at this point.

The problem with futanaris, to put it simply, is that they lack any conventions and how their anatomy and gender identity is treated can vary very wildly. Usually they are treated as girls with dicks (aka. dickgirls), and as such VNDB in general tends to treat them as female. Beyond that though it's murky waters at best.Last modified on 2019-06-24 at 10:04
#1745 by blue
2019-06-24 at 05:00
That is good advice, Warfoki. I am still impressed with how such a seemingly harmless tag on the surface can be so prone to misuse.

My best attempt to make this tag work was to restrict its use a conditional one, where characters are required to meet two criteria:

1 - to be clearly in or pursuing a romantic relationship with another character (and to be open about it, no tsunderes since they complicate this matter and their dishonestly tends to disqualify them from meeting this criteria).

2 - to be seen agreeing in the moment or arranging to do leisure things that are generally perceived as 'taking someone out' on a date, such as eating, playing and socializing together, at each other's residence or out in public.

Not all characters who have acknowledged their romantic feelings for the other 'go out' doing Critera 2 while lying tsunderes fail to meet Criteria 1, so adhering to both of these criteria to qualify for the Dating tag might help against characters being mistagged.

But if this is not clear cut enough to deter misuse then we may have to abandon the Dating tag since it will probably cause more trouble than it is worth. Do you still think that this tag is more of a problem than an asset even after my latest suggestions? Let me know where your thoughts are heading for this one.
#1746 by warfoki
2019-06-24 at 10:10
Again, the issue is the discrepancy between the name and the description. If people think that they know what the tag/trait is about, they won't read the description and just use the trait based on what they THINK it is. That's why I had to name Present in Flashbacks Only as is and why it isn't enough to just have the "This character is only present in the story as part of someone else's memories of the past." part in the description and name the trait simply Flashback. That's why Chibi Only is not just Chibi.

And in the case of Dating, you giving increasingly more specific descriptions is doing the opposite of helping, since now the name is even less indicative of the exact specifics, so people who won't read every tag / trait before applying them (which is the vast majority) will be misusing it.Last modified on 2019-06-24 at 10:11
#1747 by blue
2019-06-24 at 11:00
The tag name itself does give off an highly misleading impression of being self-explanatory. Even if my idea had worked, it only applies to the description and the trouble of wording it concisely for people to use is not worth the time and effort, not to mention that it does not do much to address the misleading issue with the tag's name.

Overall, the Dating tag itself is an optional one and does not serve a purpose anywhere as important as the Present in Flashbacks Only and Chibi Only tags that you've mentioned, even if it may have been nice to have around. In that case, do dispose of it when you see fit. Thank you again for your time and effort on this matter. And my apologies for having to put you through the trouble of dealing with its discrepancies in such detail, even if may be something you are used to.
#1748 by savagetiger
2019-06-26 at 06:26
All the mentions of 'weigths' in Bondage Weigths are misspelled. It should be weights.
#1749 by warfoki
2019-06-26 at 06:42
Fixed.
#1750 by skorpiondeath
2019-06-26 at 19:14
Single Hole Mutiple Fisting missing an L... Multiple instead of mutiple

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