|#1826 by yorhel|
2019-10-24 at 07:37
|@rampaa: As for naming, I think "Romanceable" or "Has route" would be more generic, depending on what the intention is. But I'm not even sure it should be a trait, I feel like the VN<->Char roles themselves should be expanded to better handle this case, with a role between protagonist and main character, but then we need a better definition of what that role really is.|
|#1827 by rampaa|
2019-10-24 at 08:03
|@yorhel: "Romanceable" sounds about right. Although it gives the impression romancing being optional, which might not be the case.|
"Has route" is not as accurate. Despite what my definition -which, actually, is not mine. I've shamelessly stolen it from Heroine and modified it a little- says, a heroine does not need a "route" or a dedicated ending for herself. Croix Eden is a heroine but she does not have a separate route for herself. The game has a linear plot so there are no routes, nor are there different endings for different characters. So yeah, "romanceable" does a much better job.
I feel like the VN<->Char roles themselves should be expanded to better handle this caseWell, it would be more consistent with how we handle protagonists, so that might be a better solution.Last modified on 2019-10-24 at 08:03
|#1828 by warfoki|
2019-10-24 at 10:15
|Romancable might not be the best description either. I mean, what about all of those rapefast nukiges where the protagonist just rapes all the (ususally female) characters? I wouldn!t exactly say that they are "romanced". Yes, we, internaly, usually refer to major characters whom the protagonist can have sex with (consensually or not) as romancable on the site, but that's not quite accurate if you really think about it.|
|#1829 by rampaa|
2019-10-24 at 11:30
|Likewise, traps are not heroines when you think about it. But as long as people get the intended meaning behind the trait/tag there shouldn't be any problems, right?|
|#1830 by warfoki|
2019-10-24 at 15:09
|Well, yeah, but you are comparing apples and oranges here. One is a tag that applies to the entirety of the VN, where is it located structurally (hero or heroine) doesn't matter all that much. Also, it does make sense since overwhelming majority of the time traps are treated as female by the VNs themselves.|
Romancable and heroine on the other hand is a lot less obvious when they are applied to the characters themselves instead of the visual novels in general, since you CAN browse the character database without checking their attached visual novel and in that context "romancable" would mean that it's possible for the protagonist to have romantic relationships with them. If the protagonist is on a quest for vengeance via raping everything in sight, that's hardly a romance. If "romancable" means available to the protagonist for sex, then no characters in all ages VNs should be tagged with it.
Basically the problem is that this term is mixing up two separate notions:
1. The character and the protagonist can enter a romantic relationship.
2. The character and the protagonist can have sex.
If we want to to make new role traits, then I prefer to have these two concepts covered by separate traits.Last modified on 2019-10-24 at 15:10
|#1831 by rampaa|
2019-10-24 at 16:45
|Let's put aside the trait for a moment. |
Heroine (the tag) is not well defined, as indirectly pointed out by Yorhel himself. Therefore all of its child tags are ill-defined. If we don't know what a heroine is we cannot possibly tag a VN with an X Heroine tag, can we? But we do tag VNs with X Heroine tags. So, either people do know what a heroine means even if we did not provide a good definition for it or we are possibly misapplying all X Heroine tags. That is not to say we should not strive for a better definition but honestly I think this is one of the "you will know it when you see it" things.
No matter how I think about it, I find some exceptions. For example, in Sekien no Inganock -What a Beautiful People-, the protagonist cannot have sex with Keea -however he can have sex with Atty- but Keea is still a heroine, right? I would say she is. The fact that the game has Loli Heroine as a tag says she is. (But if she is not to be considered a heroine, that makes things worse. In that case we really don't tag "X Heroine" tags correctly at all.) So even that criterion does not hold true for all 18+ games. Honestly, I am not sure how I would describe what a heroine is. A heroine can be a side character rather than a main one. She may or may not have sex with the protagonist. She may or may not be romanceable in the literal sense of the word. She may or may not have route(s)/ending(s) dedicated to herself.
The more I think about this the more muddling it seems. VNDB divides characters into Protagonist, Main Characters, Side Characters and Makes an Appearance. But the tags themselves don't correspond to that model at all. How do you tag a "main" female character who is not a heroine? You can't with the current system.
As for handling it with VN<->Char roles, I think it makes things complex as well. Being a main/side character has nearly nothing to do with being a heroine and vice versa. Kinou is a side character but she is definitely a heroine. So being a heroine should be a separate thing on itself. Simply changing her role from side character to heroine would mean that we would lose information about her screen-time. Honestly I am not too sure what should be done about this.
(As for all the "meta" traits that have been come up with, all of them sound like they would provide quite useful info about the characters/VN, even if they do not correspond to being a heroine. I would like to have romancable and has route traits regardless of how "heroine" issue is handled.)Last modified on 2019-10-24 at 16:58
|#1832 by beliar|
2019-10-24 at 16:59
|All the Heroine/Hero tags are currently misapplied to hell and back. From what I have seen, if a female character appears for a significant amount of time in a VN, someone eventually adds one of the heroine tags for her.|
All the hero/heroine tags would need to be re-defined to clear up the current mess, and the first step should probably be this - defining what a hero/heroine is.
And Rampaa, who says that we cannot have both the screen time and the hero/heroine label side by side. Yorhel could introduce an additional field, where we would mark if the character is hero/heroine, or not.
A very draconian measure could be, the Vn entry not allowing any hero/heroine tags, unless at least a single character is tagged with a hero/heroine label, but I don't know if that's feasible, or it would make matters worse.
|#1833 by warfoki|
2019-10-24 at 17:20
So, either people do know what a heroine means even if we did not provide a good definition for it or we are possibly misapplying all X Heroine tags.
The second. No, seriously, if I would have kept a list of how many VN pages I've seen where side characters or protagonists were tagged with heroine, in rarer cases, hero tags, that list would probably have a hundred or two entries by now. And that's just the ones I personally noticed at that given time. If we combine all of the heroine tags, I wouldn't be surprised to find that we have possibly thousands of misapplications.
Hero / heroine, outside of our internal jargon here at VNDB, typically reserved to protagonists or at least main leads. So people not familiar with our usage come in, use those tags for any main character, whether they are the protagonist, romancable love interest, non-romancable main character or whatever. And with the number of entries in the database, these applications tend to stick for years to come, because most people tend to just add new tags and leave the ones already there alone. It's a total mess.
So why is it kept that way? Because it's an absolutely core element of the searchability of the database. If I were to purge the entire system and make separate categories instead of using the protagonist - hero / heroine - side character system, we would have to nuke tens of thousands of applications from orbit, have to fill up tens of thousands of VN pages with crucial, fundamental tags again, otherwise the searchability of the database is shot to hell. It would take weeks, if not months to do this with a dedicated, paid stuff working on this full time. My lonesome doing it as a glorified hobby in my spare time? Yeah, not happening.Last modified on 2019-10-24 at 17:21
|#1834 by saeryen|
2019-11-01 at 18:13
|There are four traits still awaiting moderation. What’s up?|
EDIT: Six traits now, five of which are my suggestions. Could someone please tell me what’s going on there? If the mods are still trying to figure out whether or not the database needs them, I understand, but I would like to know if that’s what’s going on.Last modified on 2019-11-03 at 18:34
|#1835 by traumatizer|
2019-11-03 at 18:40
|@1834 Imo some of the traits are okay but also have problems.|
* Mind Reading > Telepath has existed for 7 years already. It literally has the alias "Mind reader" in it.
* Indigo > Do we really need more color traits? Blue covers it pretty well, especially since indigo is a shade of blue.
* Bat > Description is way too vague.
* False Suicide > While I can understand the use for this, it really feels too specific. And I think Fake Death covers it.
|#1836 by beliar|
2019-11-03 at 18:59
|You know, saeryen, just some time ago traits used to stay in the queue for 5 months before anyone deigned to approve them or not. 6 days is basically nothing...|
Mind reading - in this case the author tries to create an "engages in" trait as a separate one from Telepath. Which would make sense, because we have other actor and activity traits, like Stripper and Striptease. The thing is, you don't have to be a stripper to engage in striptease, in which case it makes sense to have separate traits.
However, if we are already defining the actor as Telepath, it's certain that they engage in mind reading activities. I'm not sure we need a separate trait for that.
Indigo - there is no visual difference between indigo and blue. I see no reason for this trait to exist.
Bat - description can be improved. I see nothing wrong with approving it.
False Suicide - I can see where the author is coming from, but we are getting into a very specific territory with only one or two VNs that subscribe to such a trait. How many fake suicides are even there? I would also go with Fake Death.
Edit: Took care of some traits. Leaving Mind reading and False Suicide for Skorpion or Warfoki to make the final decision.Last modified on 2019-11-03 at 19:11
|#1837 by saeryen|
2019-11-03 at 19:23
|Thanks traumatizer and beliar|
|#1838 by blue|
2019-11-04 at 07:00
|Once again, I am passing by with another gathered list of trait suggestions that I have made some contemplation on. There may have been more traits that I wanted to discuss but to make it easier, I will start with the ones that don’t seem as overly complicated.|
Charismatic – Is this trait suitable in its current place as a child trait under Proactive? There may be a discrepancy with where this trait is currently placed. Proactive seems to be a trait that associates more with things like work ethic and motivation than it does with being Charismatic, a trait that seems to associate far more with social skills than any of the ones mentioned above. Suggesting that these traits be separated from each other since they (at least from my analysis) do not have much in the way of direct relation with one another.
Trident – This trait should be placed more specifically as a child trait under Spear, since the trident is not just a polearm but also a three-pronged variant of the spear.
Witch Hat – Should this trait be child trait under Pointed Hat? This trait seems rather mutually inclusive with the Pointed Hat trait and this can still remain true even if the Witch’s Hat is curled, crooked, bent or swirly in design since it always seems to at least have a pointed tip. Relocating this trait as a child trait under Pointed Hat should also prevent the need to include both traits at the same time during edits and searches.
Skirt Suit – Should this trait also be a child trait under Skirt? Once again, another trait being mutually inclusive with another as the main point for its suggested change. While it may not be possible to exclude the Trousers trait from being incorrectly categorized as a parent trait of Skirt Suit (since it is automatically and correctly included as a part of the Suit), it may still be reasonable to also categorize the Skirt Suit under Skirt. The reason for this is the same as the reason why the Suit is a child trait under Trousers; the Skirt Suit is not just a skirt nor is it just a suit jacket. Doing this would ensure that the Skirt trait is included with this trait as well and not left out during searches.
On the side, I would also like to report that the example link for Off-The-Shoulder Shirt is no longer functional.Last modified on 2019-11-05 at 00:00
|#1839 by traumatizer|
2019-11-06 at 17:49
|Didn't notice we had the "Asian" trait until a few days ago lol. Should it be used for every character who's also Japanese, or just other Asian ethic groups?|
|#1840 by beliar|
2019-11-06 at 18:02
|The Asian trait (like the counterparts African or European) was created to put all the child tags under it. Frankly, maybe it would even make sense to make those three traits not applicable, as I have a hard imagining a situation where we would use a parent trait, instead of one of the more accurate child traits.|
Also, as you can see, there is no Japanese trait under Asian, as pretty much the majority of all the characters in the DB are Japanese by default, which makes the trait obsolete. There is however, a Japanese (Expatriate) trait for those characters who live abroad.
So, in other words, no, the trait shouldn't be used for Japanese characters who live in Japan.
|#1841 by traumatizer|
2019-11-06 at 18:05
|Okay so it's just like I thought, thanks for the quick answer beliar.|
|#1842 by blue|
2019-11-07 at 02:00
|I’ve noticed that the Cat Person trait on the moderation queue happens to be what I have recently thought about adding as well. Since someone has come up with this trait themselves, I would like to add some of my own thoughts and suggestions to it.|
From my experience, the personality trope of characters with a notably beyond average fondness for cute animals like the cat is a common and distinct enough trope in Japanese media to become its own trait on VNDB.
Comparing to traits like Cat Person, Nature Lover can be too broad of a trait tag when used to describe fondness of animals since it does not specify which kind is endeared to the character. This is especially if a character is only smitten with one type of animal.
While a similar argument can be made for nature itself, I would doubt that what kind of plant, tree, wilderness, waterfall, river, etc. a character is into is worth distinguishing with the use of trait tags under Nature Lover, at least compared to animals.
Going back to Cat Person, I would also like to suggest adding “Kitten Lover” as another alias for this trait.
With all of this in mind, I’d also like to suggest that the Cat Person trait be mirrored into one for dogs and puppies, another notable animal with domestic popularity comparable to the cat's.
Considering name and aliases, it should be done by discretion to decide which is name and which is alias, possibly depending on how the one for cats and the one for dogs look side-by-side.
Cat Lover - Dog Lover
Cat Person - Dog Person
Kitten Lover - Puppy LoverLast modified on 2019-11-07 at 02:20
|#1843 by warfoki|
2019-11-07 at 11:53
|@Saeryen - What you need to understand is that the moderation of the database is done by a low handful of people, as essentially a hobby. So sometimes tags and traits stuck in the queue for extended periods of time when netiher of us have the time to spend on VNDB. Yes, in the past this could go on for a long time, somethis half a year, since I was the only tagmod nad, well... life gets in the way. We have three people now, so such long waiting time thoretically shouldn't happen. Still, a couple days of waiting time can and will occasionally happen. If you expect your tags / traits to be approved or denied within the day, I'm afraid zou will set youself up for disappointment. With that being said I cleared up the queue for now.|
@Traumatizer - I'm actually considering adding a Japanese tag. Yes, overwhelming majority of VNs are made in Japan and voiced by Japanese, but that doesn't necessarily makes the characters themselves of Japanese nationality. There are a ton of fantasy VNs where irl natinalities do not apply. I mean Pale is potentially even more common and we still have a trait for it.
@Blue - I'm going to go through the child-parent tag relations as a whole once I have done the same with tags, so these will get looked at. I did move trident since that is a no-brainer obvious move, left the rest for now.
I'm less sure about Cat Person, seems awfully vague to me. Also, yes, the love of cute things and animals is very common trope in moeges but that' rarely if ever limited specifically to cats or dogs. Lover of Cute Things sounds even more vague and contrived though...
|#1844 by fabsu93|
2019-11-07 at 13:02
|^ Wouldn't be better instead of Japanese trait to have something like fictional nationality trait for those fantasy characters?|
|#1845 by namingmegently|
2019-11-07 at 13:54
|The Transwoman link included in both Newhalf and Newhalf (Not Born Male) is faulty because of an additional "/edit" at the end of the url.|
I'm for having a Cat Person trait with some adjustments.
- Don't call it "Cat Person" because it will get confused with characters who are half-cat, half-human.
- I'm partial to calling it 'Ailurophile' with 'Cat Enthusiast' and 'Kitty Enthusiast' as aliases, though Cat Enthusiast could easily be interchanged to be the main name.
- Although it's tempting to use Cat/Kitty Lover as one of the names, I'd have to disagree on doing such, because it may be misapplied on characters who happen to be involved in a relationship with a half-human, half-cat character without really having an enthusiastic preference for cats in and of themselves.
- The defining aspect of this trait is that the characters MUST have a strong preference for cats above all (or most) other animals.
If we're going to be adding inordinately common traits, it may be a good idea to add "Obi" as a child trait under Sash, as suggested in t3314.1816 since there's already one character that's had Sash applied in such a way and we already have a child trait for 'Obi' - Forward Knot Obi. So "Obi" could be a child trait of both Sash and Belt, maybe?Last modified on 2019-11-09 at 14:08
|#1846 by blue|
2019-11-09 at 15:00
|I agree with the idea against referring to trait i3101 as "Cat Person" since it definitely could end up being confused with the Cat trait itself. The rest of namingmegently’s suggestions are also very reasonable and do appear to help optimize the trait into something less vague and better defined.|
However, there are other problems with the Cat Person trait. The first one may be fixable while the second I am still unsure of. The first problem mentioned below is not that severe but still worth addressing:
According to namingmegently’s reasoning, it would make sense to consider against including “Cat/Kitten/Kitty Lover” as a name/alias for trait i3101. However, leaving it out could also create a problem as well. This is because when it comes to the idea of having a special adoration for a specific animal like the cat, the word “Cat Lover” is likely to be the first thing that comes to mind for most people. Excluding such a commonly presumed name/alias could limit database users’ awareness of the trait’s existence and could cause users to miss or overlook this trait during searching and editing.
Possible Solution - The confusion a name/alias like “Cat Lover” could cause with characters who romance with any Cat-like creature may be fixable by the suggestions already made by namingmegently. One in particular is to specifically define this trait for ailurophilic, cat enthusiast type of characters, which should help prevent misapplications caused by the confusion mentioned above.
Another problem with Cat Person is its potential misapplication when attempting broader use. If a character is fond of larger cats, such as the lion or tiger, does this trait apply to them as well? What if they are only fond of big cats but not the small domestic/feral cat?
Possible Solution 1 - Restrict the use of this trait to just the small domestic cat/feral cat and disregard any broader use. However, this could turn awkward if someone comes across this trait looking to tag it to a character who loves tigers, lions or other big cats since they too, are technically cats.
Possible Solution 2 - Allow broader use by stating in the description that Cat Person also extends to love for bigger cats. However, this could make the trait tag a bit vague and hard to tell which type of cat a character is head over heels for, causing most to assume it’s the typical small cat.
I am worn out from thinking and talking so much about this pain of a trait. Hopefully, I won’t have to keep up my long-winded side of the discussion for long so that the moderators can decide the rest.Last modified on 2019-11-10 at 07:00
|#1847 by sakurakoi|
2019-11-09 at 15:56
|So... we gonna skip Pet/Animal Lover and start a war with the dog faction?|
All the while of course that this kinda indicates that apparently more people have a cat preference than very common sexual ones which I find funny but well, on a related side note after relating to it:
Something like Masochism and Exhibitionist are all over the place when they should belong to Personality since it largely is and should be only used when it is (or became) their preference. The latter should also be worded like the prior i.e "Exhibitionist are people who derive pleasure from". This also takes into consideration that for exhibitionism-like activities there are also traits anyway and it'd be otherwise odd to make this role a meta trait (when it is at odds with the desc for Forced Public Nudity as well).
For the prior it should also be added that it is "physical or psychological" pain. Why it links to the wikipedia entry of Sadist is even beyond me.
Oh and if you want a trait name for someone who likes cute stuff generally... be brave and just combine some greek word for cute with the all known -phil for friend/lover like χαριτ(ωμένος)=>charito(ménos)=>cute(verily so?)=>Charitophile! Yeah, it sure is gonna be confused with Charity... tehe~
Let's just go with Philocutia.
|#1848 by avunyx|
2019-11-10 at 15:15
|I would like to suggest adding a potential alias for trait Cat Person, if it hasn't already, namely the phrase "cataholic". In contrast to the phrase "ailurophile" it could be considered less formal, but it also doesn't necessarily mean "a cat-loving individual", as far as I remember the homonyms of the phrase "(extreme) fondness (of cats)".|
Also, while we're on the subject of adding traits commonly being a distinct enough trope in visual novels, are the antonyms of "ailurophile" ("ailurophobe", etc.) worthy of addition in the DB (and thus considered being a commonly distinct enough trope in visual novels)? (I don't remember playing any VN with a character which could be identified with that, though).
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