Traits

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#1851 by yorhel
2019-11-14 at 19:05
Hey don't blame me for everything. That bug was limited to staff.
#1852 by beliar
2019-11-14 at 19:37
Sorry :-) I Looked at the actual content of Traumatizer's post and saw that it was simply his oversight...
#1853 by traumatizer
2019-11-14 at 20:31
yep sorry for that, i'm fucking dyslexic on top of being an ESL so this shit happens pretty often to me lol.Last modified on 2019-11-14 at 20:31
#1854 by saeryen
2019-11-15 at 23:30
There's a couple traits I'd like to suggest but I'm not sure what to call them.

So in Azusa's route in Wizardess Heart, there's choices you can make that lead to the MC being killed, but instead of getting a game over you get sent back in time and only the survival choice is available. This would qualify, for the MC, as a "subject of" trait under "death" (possibly avoidable death) but I feel like "undone death" would be better and more specific. And for Azusa, who does the murder, I wouldn't want to put "murder" for "Engages in" since it doesn't stick, something like "undone murder." Except, I think those names sound weird. Any better names/are these really necessary as traits?
#1855 by barfboy
2019-11-16 at 07:27
Hey, how do I apply the Netorase trait?

The person in question is Nekogusa Kisara who's actively trying to setup her husband to cheat on her with her own sisters. Neither her sisters nor her husband are aware she's doing this, she sets up situations hoping he cheats so I believe the trait applies. She's not the protagonist though so I don't know who to apply it to. Do I apply the trait to the one setting up the cuckolding or to the one doing the cuckolding?

So what I'm asking. Do I apply the trait to Kisara? Or her sisters? Or (it doesn't seem right) the protagonist himself?Last modified on 2019-11-16 at 07:32
#1856 by beliar
2019-11-16 at 11:04
@barfboy: Exactly the question I asked Warfoki once. (t3314.1687 t3314.1688)
It was decided that the both parties, the initiator and the initiate should be tagged with this trait, meaning the wife and the husband in this case.
Note that Netorase should only apply if she sets up her husband to "cheat" on her, but herself doesn't "cheat" on him. If both parties end up banging other people, Swinging or Open Relationship would be more accurate traits to use.

@saeryen: That seems awfully specific. I'm not sure we need yet another trait for a situation that is so unique, that there is unlikely to be another VN out there that will demand such a trait...
#1857 by barfboy
2019-11-16 at 14:15
Awesome, that makes sense. Should I apply Netori to the sisters?

Also can I appeal to have the 'protagonist' somehow smoothed over in the description? Much of my confusion comes from applying it to a heroine. I'm certain most games the one setting up their partner to cheat is the protagonist but there's obviously cases where this doesn't apply.
#1858 by beliar
2019-11-16 at 15:28
Awesome, that makes sense. Should I apply Netori to the sisters?
Not necessarily. It takes initiative to engage in Netori, i.e. to steal someone's partner. If the wife is manipulating the situation(i.e. she has the initiative), I don't think it's right to add such a trait to the sisters.
Moreover, I don't think Netori even applies in most cases where Netorase is involved. Netorase is frequently a consensual affair, at least partially, thus the one banging someone's partner is not really "stealing" anyone.

Also can I appeal to have the 'protagonist' somehow smoothed over in the description?
God, that description is sooo bad... I'll see what I can do regarding that.
#1859 by barfboy
2019-11-17 at 03:25
I just realized that if someone is looking for Netorase, or if a person is examining the character list to see what type of VN they're about to read they're not going to get a clear understanding with just the Netorase trait as currently described.

There's got to be some way to indicate to someone who's the instigator and who's the cheater when using the trait. I think the best way is to include 'infidelity' along with 'netorase' though netorase is a subset of infidelity. So that if someone sees the 'netorase' trait they immediately look for who's also given the infidelity trait to see who's cheating on whom.

That's going to rely on people understanding the need to use both traits to get that point across though ...
#1860 by saeryen
2019-11-17 at 04:35
I really think there should be a trait for when a character has another form (or just a power) that is out of their control. I suggested "power incontinence" once to copy what TV Tropes called it, but the mods said the name sounded weird.

Koga from Ayakashi: Romance Reborn and (to a degree) Ran from Destiny Ninja 2 are characters I know to suffer from this.
#1861 by barfboy
2019-11-18 at 16:23
I wonder if Stranded could be reworded a bit. The primary difference between Stranded and Confinement is freedom of movement. In Confinement a person has limited freedom to move, such as being kept in a cage, being tied up, or locked in a house. In Stranded you have unlimited freedom to move but nowhere to go that would lead you out of your situation.

For example, if your mother abandoned you and you have no car at the airport you're not confined at the airport, you can walk anywhere you please, you simply won't get anywhere significant by walking. Nobody would say 'I'm confined in the desert' or 'I'm confined on an island'. Neither would anyone say 'I'm stranded in a cage' or 'I'm stranded in my house tied to a chair'. It's not about reaching escape or reaching a goal or survival, it's about freedom of movement.

Nobody needs to survive in a Mall but if your car breaks down we certainly call it stranded.

Edit
Clone needs to be fixed to simply say 'This character is a clone'. It's entirely possible for a character to simply be a clone without being a clone of another character from the same game.Last modified on 2019-11-19 at 00:30
#1862 by rampaa
2019-12-05 at 15:02
Ninth Grader should not have "freshman" as an alias. Also "Grade Ninth" should be changed into "Grade Nine".Last modified on 2019-12-05 at 15:02
#1863 by saeryen
2019-12-05 at 15:31
No pupils: The “p” should be capitalized

Anyone have any thoughts on #1860?
#1864 by skorpiondeath
2019-12-07 at 20:47
Here some traits I would like to propose:
1) Big Ass should have some guideline pictures to determine what truly is a big ass character, it's really getting out of control; for the same reason I don't see apparent breast size traits to see the light in the near future
2) Add a "Side Bun" like we have Side Tail
3) I would like to restore Braid-Tie Tail, not many cases but it doesn't harm anyone
4) Add a "Legwear Footjob" under Footjob (mainly a fetish thing)
5) Add a "Bodysuit" trait, since Leotards [link] and Bodysuit [link] are 2 different concept. Leotards are used in sports, gymnastic, etc...while "Bodysuit" or "Body" can be used as everyday attire
6) About #1860 maybe rename it in something like "Uncontrollable Superpower" or "Out of Control Superpower", maybe superpower helps understand we are talking about superheroes here...and avoid incontinence word too because it seems something related to pee...
7) Curly most of the time is used for wavy hair... I think that this trait should be renamed into "Wavy" and make a separate "Curly" trait.Last modified on 2019-12-07 at 21:13
#1865 by saeryen
2019-12-07 at 21:20
#1864 Yes, 6 sounds good. And I agree with 7 since sometimes I don’t know whether to put “curly” or “straight”
#1866 by warfoki
2019-12-07 at 22:54
1) Go for it, you are responsible for like half the image links anyway already, you can handle it. The biggest issue though is that the description does not specify just how big that ass has to be be to qualify. In retrospect it was stupid of me not to fix that before approving the trait back in the day.

2-6) Sure, no objections from me.

7) Only if the new Curly trait is a child trait for Wavy, otherwise the ACTUALLY curly haired heroines will be retroactively mistagged.
#1867 by skorpiondeath
2019-12-07 at 23:56
@warfoki: saw the answer.
Ok done everything beaside 1 and 5. I would gladly need help or listen to any advice for n°1.Last modified on 2019-12-08 at 02:18
#1868 by saeryen
2019-12-08 at 16:44
“Survival” has a confusing description.

It includes “murder” as something survived but I feel like “Subject Of/Attempted Homicide” already covers that, since the “attempted” means it didn’t happen.

Therefore I would only wanna use it if a character survives either a natural disaster or accident, or is one of or the only survivor of a mass murder or genocide.
#1869 by zakashi
2019-12-09 at 00:32
@1868 Hi, i think putting ''attempted homicide'' as a child tag of ''survival'' would solve this, but for the time being, the best way to deal with it is by using the most fitting tag as possible and excluding all the other which are also "fitting" but not as quite, in my humble opinion the characters should be as clean as possible, and not full of traits, since i suppose people don't search for new games by browsing through the traits.Last modified on 2019-12-09 at 00:37
#1870 by myopius
2019-12-09 at 12:58
I just noticed that school year ("grade") traits were approved a few days back (example: Ninth Grader). Nice! These are traits I've wanted to see for a while, because I think that school year is worthwhile info which traits like "kouhai" and "senpai" fail to properly express.

On the other hand, I feel like the current implementation is problematic. Specifically, the idea of numbering every school year trait from 1 to 12... and furthermore putting them under the elementary, middle, high school traits based on the Japanese standard (elementary = 6, middle/high school = 3 each). I see 3 problems.

Problem #1: The most obvious one, that I just alluded to--these trait definitions are culturally specific. VNDB isn't just stories set in Japan.

Problem #2: The descriptions aren't useful or informative. They say "This character is a [number-th] grader" and link to Wikipedia. The Wikipedia entries are even worse, saying everything and nothing. Just look at the first paragraph of link . Incidentally, this is also why we can't solve problem #1 just by making these traits no longer subtraits of the school traits--it would just make them meaningless.

Problem #3: It's just going to cause confusion when people forget which trait corresponds to the first/second/third year of middle/high school in Japanese or don't realize that "grade" is meant to be different from "year". Some Americans will add Ninth Grader for first year high school students in Japan, and others might add First Grader for a first year high school student.

My first instinct would be to just add "first year" to "sixth year"... and then pair those traits with "elementary" "middle" "high" (and "university" while we're at it) to have an idea of specifically what year they're in. This is simple and somewhat elegant, but the one potentially problematic flaw is that a character who graduates from elementary school or middle school (and thus has multiple grades) will then have, for example, middle school + high school + first year + third year as traits, and will show up in searches for third year high school students.

So my proposed solution is to just change the trait names to First/Second/Third/Fourth/Fifth/Sixth Year Elementary School Student, First/Second/Third Year Middle School Student, First/Second/Third/Fourth Year High School Student, and potentially more on request. Also, the descriptions could benefit from a little informative detail, such as (for example) what the typical age range of Japanese first year high school students is.
#1871 by zakashi
2019-12-09 at 13:15
@1870
Well, since most of VNs with students are set in Japan, i doubt these problems would come out often, if some character studies in Italy i wouldn't use these traits, just put "highschool student" or whatever.

So my proposed solution is to just change the trait names to First/Second/Third/Fourth/Fifth/Sixth Year Elementary School Student, First/Second/Third Year Middle School Student, First/Second/Third/Fourth Year High School Student

Yeah, that sounds nice, i would do what you proposed if i could.

My problem with these traits is that they sound so uninsteresting and useless to me, it is the same with Shopping, such a boring trait, but whatever.
#1872 by skorpiondeath
2019-12-09 at 13:16
1) As they are used rightnow grades are relative to Japanese school system otherwise there is no way we can put them under Elementary, Middle and High School... I don't think it would be a good idea to use them for other school system or like you said in 2) they should be removed from Elementary, Middle and High School thus become meaningless
3) Could be a good idea, wikipedia has a nice chart for japanese school here link
#1873 by skorpiondeath
2019-12-09 at 13:24
@zakashi:
they sound so uninsteresting and useless to me
I think that pair up shopping with school grades seems a bit unfair to me... and the traits system is bult in a way that you will always find information that are useless to you so I don't even see the need to say it.

Japan, i doubt these problems would come out often
But what to do when they come out? If possible is nice to solve problemsLast modified on 2019-12-09 at 17:37
#1874 by rampaa
2019-12-09 at 16:25
#1870:

1) The terms "Elementary School" and "Middle School" are culture specific as well. For example, Turkey had an 8+4 education model back in the not-so-distant days. There was no distinct elementary or middle schools. There was only "Primary Education School"s for 8 years (after which 4-year-long high school ensued). Point being, being inclusive of every culture is not as simple as it may seem. So I took the approach that would took less effort and accepted the Japanese school model as the norm. Like cup-size thingy. If there are incompatibilities between countries, going with Japanese way seems pretty reasonable to me (for the matters that concern VNDB). Also, the parent traits also used Japanese system to explain elementary/middle/high school.

2) Maybe I could have been a bit more verbose but I don't necessarily think those traits *need* verbose definitions to be honest. Their parent traits already mention about the age range. I could maybe narrow those down for each trait but my laziness got better of me.

3) t13095.43

Your first instinct sounds much more prone to misuse and confusion to me. However I don't have any objections for your proposed solution. Though it will not solve this problem for every culture there is (See point 1 above). But if this will make it less confusing for people I am all for it.
#1875 by warfoki
2019-12-09 at 16:58
Agree with Rampaa on this one, the education system diferes from country to country. For example here's how the Hungarian one works:

We don't have separate elementary and middle schools. We have junior and senior elementary school classes, but those are done in the same institutions, by mostly the same teachers. After that there's 4 years of high school. well, mostly, see if you want to focus on learning a foreign language, you can by going a 5 year high school, where about 70%-ish of your first year is going to be foreign language classes, with everything else being reduced to the bare minimum to give you a head start. Alternatively, though this is exceedingly rare these days, there are some 6 year high schools where after 6 years in elementary you can switch to their program. And then there are the big educational complexes that get the same class from nursery school to the end of high school in the same institution. And this is just one country.

If we want this to be inclusive, the only way I can imagine that happening is if we completely decouple the elementary / middle / high school student traits from the actual grades. So, an 11th grader would also have to be tagged with high school student, since they would not imply each other. This, however, seems awfully redundant and impractical to me.Last modified on 2019-12-09 at 16:58