Traits

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#1951 by shining17
2020-01-28 at 04:47
It's better to have more detailed child traits/tags than one broad trait/tag.
#1952 by naiohoras
2020-01-28 at 07:27
It's better to have more detailed child traits/tags than one broad trait/tag.
I get your point. the broader and ambiguous a trait is, the harder it will be used, we might even get a case where the trait is used in almost every characters.

but I think this one is pretty safe. it can be used when a character has a complex beside the ones that already exist. furthermore, not all character in VNs has an extreme complex, I think.

it has wikipedia articles as well eng jap
#1953 by tahu157
2020-01-30 at 07:31
Not sure if this is the right thread, but should the “Based on a _____” series of tags only be applied to official adaptations, or can they be applied to unofficial works as well? So far everything tagged with Based on an Anime seems to be official.
#1954 by saeryen
2020-01-31 at 05:28
#1953 It’s really a tag and not a trait question. I will say, though, that “Based on a” is for official, otherwise use the “Fan-fiction” tag. And for official adaptations I would go with whatever came first, which is usually the manga.
#1955 by tahu157
2020-01-31 at 05:58
Even if the actual source is a an ln or a manga, the VNs always use the characters as they're depicted in their anime adaptations so I'd argue that the Based on an Anime tag should always be used.
#1956 by saeryen
2020-01-31 at 15:48
#1955 I’m just thinking of how anime databases tag their stuff.
#1957 by naiohoras
2020-02-06 at 05:04
the Friend trait should not be applicable for obvious reason

neither AcquaintanceLast modified on 2020-02-06 at 05:08
#1958 by rampaa
2020-02-09 at 19:30
Is there a trait that can be used for characters that are Not Sexually Involved but can be seen fully naked at least once in the game?

(Thinking about Mayu Anri specially. She has a dedicated CG where the protagonist sees her naked. But she does not have any h-scenes in the game.)
#1959 by saeryen
2020-02-13 at 16:15
If cat person and dog person are too complicated to accept you can just delete them. I'd rather that than have them sit around in the queue.
#1960 by blue
2020-02-14 at 05:55
Those two traits appear simple and straightforwardly defined on the surface until we go into detail about all the possible factors that can cause problems with them. In my opinion, having to resort to deletion would be a shame since I would much prefer to use these more specific and defined traits instead of the overly vague Nature Lover. And in my other subjective opinion, the Cat Person trait does have potential candidates, such as Kidou Kaede and Yuela. But considering how busy things are for the moderators, I would not argue against either choice of taking more time to get these traits sorted out or to simply delete them to cut losses and save trouble.
#1961 by barfboy
2020-02-14 at 13:53
Does the audience need to be human for Sex in Front of an Audience
In Imouto Style the protagonist has sex with his twin Yuzuna while using an invention made by Mikan which they use to communicate with deer and they decide to show the deer how humans engage in mating.

This may bring up a lot of questions on whether pets or animals in nature typically count as an 'audience'.
#1962 by beliar
2020-02-14 at 16:24
they decide to show the deer how humans engage in mating
That's the weirdest thing I have heard today yet...

Anyway, I interpret Audience in Sex in Front of an Audience as sapient beings. In other words, imho they should be humans or have intelligence equal to that of humans. Unless the VN is set in a fantasy universe, where dear are an intelligent species, I wouldn't count them as an audience.
#1963 by skorpiondeath
2020-02-14 at 20:44
@saeryen: I don't see what's the problem of them being in the queue. The now or never attitude it's kinda childish. We all have waited for our traits to be accepted or rejected.

@blue: I'm not busy, but those traits don't even get in my radar. I don't see any problem in them at first sight.

@barfboy: ok the main problem about tagging is sometime being too 'pedantic' about them. The usual approch of people is to take some trait to the letter, thus ruining the main aspect of a sexual trait which is the fetish aspect.
As beliar correctly stated the being should be sapient because there's no shame or arousal on being watched by a bird or a cow. There should be a judgment aspect in my opionion, like if you walk around town and see someone having sex in front of you, you will think "WTF" and they could be aroused by that. Not happening with a pet, beaside a fictional pet that talks and has a free will.
That said, in your case if the deer (which seems a sapient being) is instructed in human sex and there's no shame or arousal of the couple being watched by the deer then it's not what I would strictly consider a sex in front of an audience fetish sexual trait, but that's just my opinion.

Another example that comes to my mind is: Hidden Vibrator
Carefully reading description will show the true nature of the trait which is not just about a character with a "hidden vibrator" but it's a bout a hidden vibrator used in secrecy from a third party audience. Applying "Hidden vibrator" to a character that has an hidden vibrator while everyone is aware of it just kills the fetish aspect of the trait.Last modified on 2020-02-14 at 21:01
#1964 by barfboy
2020-02-14 at 21:16
The deer were making fun of them you see.

I like both of your answers. Thanks.
#1965 by naiohoras
2020-02-18 at 12:45
forwarded from the other thread.

I've been wondering about this for a long time, but..... isn't middle sister trait kind of useless?

let me put an example, in some case I want to search for a VN with younger sister as a heroine, I could use the tag "Protagonist's sister as heroine", but that tag is still ambiguous and mixed with older sisters. to get over that, I mixed in "younger sister" trait and tadah! the thing I want is there. except.... except that the character has multiple siblings and she is a middle sister and she was tagged as "middle sister" instead without including younger and older sister. so it wouldn't show up on the VN list at all.

this stuff has puzzling me over the years and now here I am to point that. here's a question: should we just get rid of "middle sister" trait? tagging both older sister and younger sister trait has it covered after all. or perhaps should we just include all the three traits to the character to make filter-search easier?
#1966 by skorpiondeath
2020-02-18 at 13:35
@naiohoras: ok I will start saying that how can be middle sister useless? The fact alone that doesn't interest you or gets in your way while searching, it doesn't make it an useless trait.... -.- Following your reasoning why not get rid of Violet hair since we already got the other colors... More information it's always good we just need to focus on how to extract the informations that you need.

First the hard way.
The main problem here is about relationship traits, since you never know from which point of view they are inserted... for example a family composed by 1 older sister (18), 1 middle sister (14) and 1 younger sister (10) and protagonist (16) as the only borther we could say that the middle sister is both:
A) middle sister (family wise)
B) a younger sister (protagonist wise)

We got the same problem with girlfriends, or friends or other relationships. I usually think, if I open a new VN, that they are related to the protagonist, so if someone put "girlfriend" to a character that has a boyfriend different from the protagonist it just gives 0 information to me. That's also why some people insert descriptions to clarify relationships (but they cannot help during search).
It could be beneficial to have a way to express relationship toward characters, but maybe is to hard to implement.

The easy way.
Insert a "Protagonist's younger sister as heroine" under "Protagonist's sister as heroine" and clarify that every younger sister of the protagonist counts (maybe is already clear from the name though).

Also you stated before that "Friend" should not be applicable for obvious reason but are they so obvious?
If someone is not a "Childhood Friend" or an "E-Friend" or a "Rival" why shouldn't I be able to tag him as normal friend?Last modified on 2020-02-18 at 13:47
#1967 by naiohoras
2020-02-18 at 15:04
#1966
yeah, I've already got the points you explained before I posted, but this doesn't solve the search-filtering problem. does this mean we just need to tag all three traits (older sister, middle sister, younger sister) to a character if we want it to show up on the result? you know, since the older sister and younger sister are not child tags of middle sister.

The easy way.
Insert a "Protagonist's younger sister as heroine"
there are similar tags that had been proposed in the past, such as Imouto Heroine, Protagonist's Elder Sister as a Heroine, but they were rejected, so...

It could be beneficial to have a way to express relationship toward characters, but maybe is to hard to implement.
I agree. it would be nice if we have a relationship chart feature like this, but I guess it would be hard? since we got character instances and such to mind.

Also you stated before that "Friend" should not be applicable for obvious reason but are they so obvious?
ah, it finally got noticed. well, it's my fault for being too lazy for explaining the reasons, my bad.

(1) the tags are too broad/general imo. acquaintance and friend tag can be applied to almost any character in the database, everyone has an acquaintance and a friend (almost, riiiiiight?); (2) the relationship progress can be too fast. e.g. a character get acquainted with someone, and the next day or any other day, they eventually got chummy with each other. that means, the acquaintance trait is really unnecessary (3) they can be replaced with the other tags such as coworker, schoolmate, teammate, roommate etc. contrarily, I want you to give me a situation where the traits *cannot* be replaced no matter what.
#1968 by skorpiondeath
2020-02-18 at 15:23
but this doesn't solve the search-filtering problem
Probably it doesn't solve your particular problem but at least it does not create more filtering problems for other users by removing the possibility to filter for "middle sister" trait.

older sister and younger sister are not child tags of middle sister
And that's correct.

there are similar tags that had been proposed in the past, such as Imouto Heroine, Protagonist's Elder Sister as a Heroine, but they were rejected, so...
That was explained with a nice comment "pointless". Since it was not my comment I assume you should try to explain why it's not pointless...usually if more users back up you than some tag gets restored. Personally I don't think there is nothing wrong with it, expecially if it solves right on the spot your particular searching problem.

it would be nice if we have a relationship chart feature like this
That's only for Yorhel to answer...

I forgot about the Friend I agree with you, but we got 8849 application of that trait are we sure we want to lose them?Last modified on 2020-02-18 at 15:25
#1969 by naiohoras
2020-02-19 at 02:14
but we got 8849 application of that trait are we sure we want to lose them?
we shouldn't mind the already tagged since it's not really that problematic, it's just that the trait itself is quite useless so we should prevent any further usage by making it not applicable.

Since it was not my comment I assume you should try to explain why it's not pointless...
well, beside the one mentioned, I'm quite sure many of us care about ane and imouto tropes even in Japan. Omochikaeri is one of them. so it's not pointless at all.

well I will try to propose the tag later.
Edit: wait, do I need to create a new one or just appeal here?Last modified on 2020-02-19 at 09:06
#1970 by skorpiondeath
2020-02-20 at 13:15
I think you shold just go and propose a new one, so it will undergo queue approval again. Restoring something I did not reject does not seem fair.

About the Friend trait and the imouto trope I was just waiting for comments from other users, but they did not happen at this point I'm quite sure you are just speaking for yourself, so it's kinda hard to take a decision only based on a single opinion.Last modified on 2020-02-20 at 13:17
#1971 by rampaa
2020-02-20 at 16:48
I'd personally be in favor of further splitting Protagonist's Sister as a Heroine into Imouto Heroine and Protagonist's Elder Sister as a Heroine. Because little sisters>>older sisters! Sure, character filters can be used alongside with Protagonist's Sister as a Heroine but (a) character filters are quite limited (t12970.9) (b) we will need both the tag and trait to be applied in order to do that and (c) there's no harm in splitting the tag further.

I'd also personally welcome Imouto and Imouto Complex but with different names, because they have misleading names.

On a somewhat related note, why has Lolicon been denied while Lolicon Protagonist/Lolicon Heroine/Lolicon Hero have been approved? The exact same reason given for Lolicon applies to Lolicon Protagonist.Last modified on 2020-02-20 at 16:59
#1972 by beliar
2020-02-20 at 18:35
If I were judging a Friend trait today, I wouldn't be approving it, as it's way too broad to be useful. On the other hand, it's also pretty harmless and we already have over 3k characters marked with that trait alone. Still, I'm not sure it serves any purpose and I wouldn't be against making it unapplicable and serving only as an umbrella for the child traits.

I think I was the one that rejected Protagonist's Elder Sister as a Heroine and Imouto Heroine. Looking back at them they are also pretty harmless, however that only means that we would introduce two more tags, which no-one will utilize to their fullest potential and we will still have to rely on traits to get the best experience.
Rather than introducing yet more useless tags, we should better tinker with traits. Now looking at both Older Sister and Younger Sister traits, it's interesting that both descriptions say "at least one of the other", instead of "all of the other". That means that in a group of three sisters the middle one can actually be tagged both with the Younger Sister and the Older Sister traits. And now that I think of that, it actually makes a lot of sense. I actually find myself in agreement with Naiohoras that the Middle Sister trait is obsolete and frankly unneeded.
It's a frighteningly underused trait, as it should be used every time we have more than two siblings, but at the same time, the Middle sister should be also tagged as a Younger or Older sister to make the best use of the traits. And no one is doing that. This is an abject lesson to Rampaa that having more tags or traits is not always the solution, as they end up being underused. And, as i have already mentioned, one possible solution to fix the underuse, would be to remove the Middle Sister trait wholesale. I'm pretty sure no one would even notice it gone for a few years.

I'd also personally welcome Imouto and Imouto Complex but with different names, because they have misleading names.
Still see zero reason to have these tags. Two more vague nonsense tags no one would use.

lolicon
I don't really see a problem with the trait, but Warfoki was adamantly against it. You could search through the thread - I'm sure he has explained his reasoning here somewhere.
#1973 by skorpiondeath
2020-02-20 at 18:42
@rampaa: As I said before I'm not against it, I just want to be sure there is enough interest on the subject not to make it a pointless one.

Imouto is misleading since we are talking about a personality trait here and it would be strange to have just some little sisters have the imouto trait. Imouto complex had a really strange description which is kinda confusing, but beside that shouldn't be imouto complex = lolicon?

About Lolicon tag first read denial reason because it's self explicative:
While a lolicon trait would be useful, definitely not in this "lolicons = peadophiles" form.
Again a "lolicon" trait could be useful...that doesn't seem a complete no to the trait, maybe it could be an option to merge it with the imouto complex.
#1974 by skorpiondeath
2020-02-20 at 18:53
This is an abject lesson to Rampaa that having more tags or traits is not always the solution
I would likely to understand this lesson too beliar which I find kinda absurd from my point of view. Considering that middle sister trait is useless it's untrue. It's like saying ribbon tie is useless. Is it? Maybe. But who get the right to say it?
I find niche traits being actually the more useful not the opposite. And how can possibly be worse having more information than less?
Having a sister tagged with both middle and younger sister is confusing in my opinion and removing middle sister just to use younger sister it's to enforce the rule that every trait should be protagonist-centric, which I don't find correct in any case.

I'm pretty sure no one would even notice it gone for a few years.
Why then not pick every trait and remove them one at a time and see what happens? Is this one so special?Last modified on 2020-02-20 at 18:53
#1975 by beliar
2020-02-20 at 19:03
it's to enforce the rule that every trait should be protagonist-centric
I'm definitely not trying to be protagonist-centric. However, imagine that the family has four daughters. Going by the current descriptions of the traits, the 1st daughter would have the trait "Older Sister", the 2nd one would have Middle Sister plus Older Sister (because she is older than two other sisters) and Younger Sister (as she is younger than one sister). The 3rd would have Middle Sister, plus Older Sister (because she is older than one other sister) and Younger Sister (as she is younger than two sisters). And finally the 4th one would only have only the Younger Sister.
Now see the mess. Either the descriptions and names need to be changed to the Oldest/Youngest Sister with an explanation that they have to be younger /older than ALL of the other siblings, which is a can of worms I'm not gonna open up, as we already have thousands of characters tagged with the traits, and re-tinkering with them would make lots of tagging incorrect. Or we can simply understand that the Middle Sister trait is a mess and simply cannot be salvaged anymore. Only a hundred or so characters are tagged with the trait and their loss won't be felt strongly.

Why then not pick every trait and remove them one at a time and see what happens?
Hmmm... April the 1st is on the nose. It's something to think about....
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:-D