Traits

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#1976 by skorpiondeath
2020-02-20 at 19:54
However, imagine that the family has four daughters. Going by the current descriptions of the traits, the 1st daughter would have the trait "Older Sister", the 2nd one would have Middle Sister plus Older Sister (because she is older than two other sisters) and Younger Sister (as she is younger than one sister). The 3rd would have Middle Sister, plus Older Sister (because she is older than one other sister) and Younger Sister (as she is younger than two sisters). And finally the 4th one would only have only the Younger Sister.
Ok that kind of tagging is esponentially dangerous! What about a family of 10 sisters? It's not even possible to think that this method of tagging will work. Those trait should be used for a "normal" family from the family point of view to tag oldest sister, youngest sister and middle ones... So every sibling recive only 1 trait. The imouto fetish could be instead elegantly moved to a single tag "Protagonist's younger sisters". Also consider a family of sister's of the protagonist bestfriend. They could have a younger sister (bestfriend pov) while at the same time not being directly the protagonist sisters.

April the 1st is on the nose. It's something to think about....
Ok here the challenge. Every Sunday we delete 1 trait each beliar and users got 7 days to complain on the boards. If after 7 days noone discover us we keep choosing a different trait...
Will the db crumble? Will the 2 assholes get caught?
We will see on the next episode of "My dick is longer than yours!" (airs 1st of april)Last modified on 2020-02-20 at 19:59
#1977 by beliar
2020-02-20 at 20:06
So every sibling recive only 1 trait.
That's the sane way, but it's not what the trait descriptions currently say, which is a problem I'm talking about. If you read the descriptions carefully, you'll see that they say "at least one of the other", instead of "all of the other". As I said, we could change the description, but that may possibly leave many characters mistagged.
The Middle Sister trait is both better and worse, as it is directly worded in such a way, that it can only apply to a family of three siblings.
Do you have any ideas how to fix the nonsensical descriptions without damaging the traits, because, as I said, one of the possible stopgag measures is removing the Middle Sister trait. That would make the Younger/Older Sister trait descriptions to mean something, instead of being gibberish.

My dick is longer than yours!
You have missed such an opportunity to say "My Schwartz Is Bigger Than Yours".
:-(
#1978 by skorpiondeath
2020-02-20 at 20:13
I don't know what to do....but I don't like those descriptions... but that's just me. The "protagonist younger sisters" tag would be useful to solve the imouto problem. Removing middle sister is an option, but I don't like the middle sister being tagged as younger sister either. In my opinion that kind of reasoning works only if the trait implies a "younger than who", so a protagonist bestfriend younger sister should not get tagged with younger sister or it gets in the way while searching.

You have missed such an opportunity to say "My Schwartz Is Bigger Than Yours".
I'm SO old I never heard of it...this will clearly leave us with only 1 winner.Last modified on 2020-02-20 at 20:14
#1979 by beliar
2020-02-20 at 20:32
So, the final conclusion: the descriptions are shit and "protagonist bestfriend younger sister" gets discriminated, courtesy of not being related to the protagonist. I don't know whom to blame, so I'll blame Canada.

P.S. I'm not strictly against the tag, but I fear it will be severely underused. There are thousands of characters with the younger sister trait, but who will go through the VNs they appear in an tag them with "protagonist's younger sister"?...

I'm SO old I never heard of it
Dude, the reference is from 1987 - the older you are the better are the chances you have heard of it...
#1980 by naiohoras
2020-02-20 at 20:51
I'm not strictly against the tag, but I fear it will be severely underused.
while I disagree with Beliar's quoted comment, I'm more inclined to just remove the middle sister tag since it would be more efficient. as for the protagonist-centric aspect, I don't think that's true at all, since the tags' description say that "at least one of the other siblings", thus the character could be a sibling to any character in the VN, which is quite useful (and when search-filtering, you could just add both older and younger sister trait to cover the middle sister trait). and what's wrong with having the two traits in a character? with this, the problem actually lies on "whose?" since we won't know that unless there's a description of it on the character's page. the current system still does not support relation from character to character as mentioned before.

that said, I still want to add the "Protagonist's Elder/younger Sister as a heroine" since trait and tag are two different things. anyway, I'm going to propose the trait.

so a protagonist bestfriend younger sister should not get tagged with younger sister or it gets in the way while searching.
f*ck, now I really want that character relation feature. now I'm going to propose it to Yorhel just to vent up my frustation. fuck with complexity!

@rampaa:
I'd also personally welcome Imouto and Imouto Complex but with different names, because they have misleading names.
I think it would just add a whole mess of confusion even when we tinker with the name. we could just choose another existing traits such as "spoiled, brocon, immature, etc." to fit the imouto archetype.

those aside, I think we're all agree that acquaintance and friend trait should be non-applicable, right?
#1981 by beliar
2020-02-20 at 21:01
those aside, I think we're all agree that acquaintance and friend trait should be non-applicable, right?
I think I'm okay with that.

I'm going to propose the trait.
Wait... You intend to propose the tag, not the trait, or I'm I missing something really obvious?
Anyway, you don't need to propose the tags again. I think I was the one that rejected them, so I can reinstate them too.
#1982 by naiohoras
2020-02-20 at 21:06
I mean tag, dang it me.

you don't need to propose the tags
I did, for younger sister though (aaaand I got the description wrong... dang it me (2)).
#1983 by skorpiondeath
2020-02-20 at 21:42
Dude, the reference is from 1987 - the older you are the better are the chances you have heard of it...
Lol I didn't get it was a reference to spaceballs, since of course I did not watch it in english, not being my main language :P

I think we're all agree that acquaintance and friend trait should be non-applicable, right?
Yes at least is better to propose some more meaningful children traits.

aaaand I got the description wrong
We can fix that just write it down here.Last modified on 2020-02-20 at 21:43
#1984 by beliar
2020-02-20 at 21:55
Acquaintance and Friend have been made not-applicable.
The requested tags have been approved.
I hope the DB doesn't explode from the massive changes wrought over it ;-)
#1985 by skorpiondeath
2020-02-20 at 21:58
I hope the DB doesn't explode from the massive changes wrought over it ;-)
Yorhel will soon experience the butterfly effect.
#1986 by rampaa
2020-02-20 at 22:20
we should better tinker with traits
As is, traits cannot substitute tags. If characters get more powerful filters and relation support one day, we might part away with all Character tag tree but till then this approach will not be satisfactory.

shouldn't be imouto complex = lolicon
I'm pretty sure that's basically the idea.

About Lolicon tag first read denial reason because it's self explicative
I did, that's why I am baffled. If saying Lolicon = Pedophile is a no-no, then logic dictates Lolicon Protagonist's description should be a no-no as well. It literally says "Protagonist of this game is subject of lolicon syndrome, i.e. a pedophile".

(Also, here's a no-brainer definition for lolicon: "This character is attracted to lolis.")

Imouto is misleading
It indeed is. But I think the idea itself is interesting and useful. How about the following?:

Trait name: Little/Younger Sister Act
Description: This character acts like she's a younger sister of a character by calling them Onii-chan and whatnot, even though she's not actually his sister, adopted or otherwise.
#1987 by skorpiondeath
2020-02-20 at 22:29
My problem is that while with previous issues (ie: Friend/Acquitance traits and protagonist younger sister tag) we were in the territory of already accepted stuff or stuff that seemed pointless, here we enter the territory of denied stuff for reasons.

First I would glady wanna know what warfoki thinks of all of this since he has the main global vision on the traits/tag system.
Second I think that it's ok to discuss here stuff but I don't think it should be used as a mean to jump priority over the queue since some other people are waiting and that does not seem fair, or at least we should take action on their stuff tooLast modified on 2020-02-20 at 22:31
#1988 by rampaa
2020-02-20 at 22:39
I don't think it should be used as a mean to jump priority over the queue since some other people are waiting and that does not seem fair
In case I am being accused, I am forced to say that it's a false accusation through and through. I have lots of stuff on the queue and I've not brought *any* of them into the table for the discussion to make them approved faster. You can check the queue if you want.
#1989 by skorpiondeath
2020-02-20 at 23:26
I was not accusing you rampaa, I'm sorry if it's seemed so, actually my post was for beliar since there are other issues waiting down the line, for example Cat Person. The problem is from our part since we try to solve the problems we feel comfortable with, leaving the others behind. That was all there was to it.
#1990 by rampaa
2020-02-20 at 23:39
@skorpiondeath: Sorry about the misunderstanding then.

Also, look what I've found, we do have a tag for Imouto/"Younger Sister Act" thingy: Imouto-type Heroine
#1991 by saeryen
2020-02-21 at 00:03
#1984 But then what if the character is referred to by the protagonist as simply "my friend" and nothing else (no "best friend" or any romantic term)?
#1992 by skorpiondeath
2020-02-21 at 00:22
@rampaa: if you check that's the same description of the denied trait. Probably the person that proposed the tag then it just proposed the trait, maybe the trait is unneded than because it's seems more suitable for a tag.
#1993 by vempele
2020-02-21 at 00:44
#1990 And "imouto" in the name has indeed proven misleading: many of the games tagged with it just have the protagonist's actual younger sister or step-sister as a heroine. And the lack of a tag for "protagonist's younger sister as a heroine" isn't helping.

Oh, I already said the same thing in 2017: link
The tag's (originally unclear) description has been updated since then, but that didn't undo the existing votes.Last modified on 2020-02-21 at 01:00
#1994 by yorhel
2020-02-21 at 05:55
For a bit of a historical perspective: Back when the character database was added, it was the idea to eventually add character relations as well. Echomateria, the then-tagmod, believed that adding relations traits would help with a future conversion to such a relations system. The relations system never came. it's a very low priority for me to change that and I'm doubtful that even then the traits will help much in a conversion.

I don't think that piece of information is useful in deciding what to do with the current situation, but for those who were curious about how we got here...

don't think it should be used as a mean to jump priority over the queue since some other people are waiting and that does not seem fair
The queue does not have to be processed in submission order though. Seems a little weird to halt processing new tags/traits because the oldest one in the queue needs a month of discussion. Queue processing works fine when it's "whatever, whenever" - let the hard things sink in so that the easy ones can be dealt with whenever a mod feels like it.
#1995 by naiohoras
2020-02-21 at 08:56
it's a very low priority for me to change that and I'm doubtful that even then the traits will help much in a conversion.
I see. it's been that long, huh? glad to see it is at least in your priority list. do what you think what is more important first because I'm sure you know what's best as the site owner (*cough* NSFW *cough* wars).

that said, I will be eagerly waiting for the relation update 'cause hey, "even if it's only a little, it's still an improvement!" I believe. and this might be unrelated but I'm also anticipating the "note's layout" update since it would be cool to have comment on tags like EGS does.Last modified on 2020-02-21 at 08:57
#1996 by warfoki
2020-02-21 at 15:26
So, I went back to read through this discussion, and fuck, now I have a headache. -.-

older sister and younger sister are not child tags of middle sister

Older and Younger Sister traits cannot be child traits for Middle Sister, because that doesn't make a lick off sense. It would imply that every younger / older sister is also a middle sister.

there are similar tags that had been proposed in the past, such as Imouto Heroine, Protagonist's Elder Sister as a Heroine, but they were rejected

Well, Protagonist's Elder Sister as a Heroine is an active tag, so I'm guessing Either Skorpiondeath or Beliar reactivated it, which I agree with. Imouto Heroine wasn't denied by me (
note the 5 - marks instead of 3, yes, I'm that pedantic), but I'd have thrown it out as well. Imouto-type Heroine already exists for non-blood related heroines, who just ACT like little sisters, but actually they aren't. And yes, it's confusing and probably mistagged and I have half a mind to throw it the fuck out. The last thing I want is more confusion. If you want a tag for the younger sister of the protagonist, just name it as such. which, I case someone added quite recently: Protagonist's Younger Sister as a Heroine

I think you should just go and propose a new one, so it will undergo queue approval again. Restoring something I did not reject does not seem fair.

Uhm, how is that any different? Like don't get me wrong, I fully agree with the addition of those two tags, but how is that actually different? well, we got a better description out of it at least I guess... and just for future reference: rejected tags and traits should have a little PS note on why were they rejected. If that reasoning is not there or no longer relevant, feel free to reinstate tags and traits.

Lolicon trait

*distant Grineer death groan*

Ugh, this thing again. It's been years since that thread... lemme dig it the fuck up.

*35 minutes of digging later*

Ah, there we go: t6225

*Imouto and Imouto Complex*

Still see zero reason to have these tags. Two more vague nonsense tags no one would use.

Agreed.

However, imagine that the family has four daughters. Going by the current descriptions of the traits, the 1st daughter would have the trait "Older Sister", the 2nd one would have Middle Sister plus Older Sister (because she is older than two other sisters) and Younger Sister (as she is younger than one sister). The 3rd would have Middle Sister, plus Older Sister (because she is older than one other sister) and Younger Sister (as she is younger than two sisters). And finally the 4th one would only have only the Younger Sister.

*sigh* And that is why I'm usually downright obsessive when it comes to playing the devil's advocate when accepting traits and tags. In this case this never even crossed my mind. The intention was always to use the younger sister for the youngest, the older sister for the oldest and middles sister for everything else. The reason I didn't call the trait "oldest sister", is because if we have a male protagonist with one single sibling, who is your stereotypical imouto, then she would had to be tagged as Oldest Sister, which just made no sense. Ugh, I guess I'll have to rework this description then... not that it matters, if people are misusing the trait, they will continue to do so, because remember the golden rule of tags and traits: nobody reads the descriptions if they think they know exactly what the trait is for from the name alone.

Acquaintance and Friend have been made not-applicable.

Agreed with Acquaintance, not sure about Friend. If Friend is to be a meta trait with no applicability, we will need more child traits. Best Friend for one. Maybe Idiot Friend, though that's more of a trope. Point is E-Friend and Childhood Friend don't even remotely cover all bases, so I think making Friend non-applicable is abit premature. Also, I have no clue wtf is Rival doing there.

we do have a tag for Imouto/"Younger Sister Act" thingy: Imouto-type Heroine

Look at its age: 10 years ago. Part of the first wave of tags, a lot of which have become problematic since then with their vagueness. To be clear: this trait was accepted before my time (I've been a tag/trait mod since 2013), and had it up for me, it never would have gotten through. I don't blame the people back then though, 10 years ago VNDB was a small pet project with a couple dozen, maybe hundred people and a few hundred (at most) entries, no character or staff database. We've come a long way since then and what was sufficient for organizing then, might not cut it today. It is also misused to hell and back for tagging ACTUAL sisters, when the tag clearly excludes actual sisters with the description.

The queue does not have to be processed in submission order though.

While that is true, it should be processed at some point... lemme see how old are the oldest things in there...

OH FUCK...
#1997 by rampaa
2020-02-21 at 15:49
Ah, there we go: t6225
I might be dumb, because I still do not understand how Lolicon Protagonist is okay while Lolicon isn't.

and had it up for me, it never would have gotten through
I think the tag is useful. But I think a name change would really help. I believe something like "Younger Sister Act" or "Imouto Act" would be less prone to misuse.
#1998 by savagetiger
2020-02-27 at 14:34
Can Friend be made applicable again? Because now it's going to get removed from entries when they get edited and there really isn't a replacement trait. It's legit when it comes to side characters at least.
And Rival shouldn't be a child trait when it has Rival as a main name. Even if it started as the idea of 'Frenemy' I doubt that fits most of the characters under it now.
#1999 by naiohoras
2020-02-27 at 14:46
quoting myself from #1967
they can be replaced with the other tags such as coworker, schoolmate, teammate, roommate etc.
is there a condition where it cannot be replaced no matter what?
#2000 by savagetiger
2020-02-28 at 00:34
Just because a character is the protags classmate or coworker it doesn't mean they are best friends or even just friendly with each other.
Friend support characters are a major trope too.