Traits

Posted in

#2076 by naiohoras
2020-03-23 at 04:13
< report >I agree with you. perhaps we should revamp the description, again.
#2077 by saeryen
2020-03-25 at 18:50
< report >I wonder how helpful the "son" and "daughter" traits are they stand now? I mean, everyone (excluding a few special cases like homunculi, and even then they sometimes have adoptive parents) is someone's son or daughter.

I feel like it would be better to have "Protagonist's Son," "Main Character's Son" and "Side Character's Son" and the same ones for daughter, just to have more helpful and distinguishing traits.
#2078 by fllthdcrb
2020-03-28 at 04:52
< report >May I suggest a new trait?
Personality > Talking Patterns > Laconic
Aliases: Terse, Concise, Short-spoken
This character typically speaks in very short sentences or sentence fragments, even in situations where most people would use full sentences

I would propose this through the normal mechanism, but the above names clash with several names of Taciturn. IMHO, those words aren't so suitable for that trait.

On a completely unrelated note, @rampaa,
Also, no, it would not apply to Houjou Satoko. She was wrapped with a towel, she has no nude CS/CG.
No, I'm pretty sure she *did* have a naked sprite in the original version of "Tatarigoroshi-hen", which appears after she drops the towel, but it was taken out of certain (most?) versions. MangaGamer addressed their removal of it at one point, it's been discussed here on VNDB, and I once ran across a screenshot of it.
#2079 by ginseigou
2020-03-28 at 05:17
< report >@2078 Taciturn and Laconic are synonyms linkLast modified on 2020-03-28 at 05:22
#2080 by fllthdcrb
2020-03-28 at 05:24
< report >Of course, I'm open to suggestions for other names, but I think those words better fit the trait I'm proposing than that other one. I don't think "taciturn" (basically, "silent") does, though. It may be considered a synonym, but that doesn't mean it has exactly the same meaning.
#2081 by skorpiondeath
2020-03-28 at 06:03
< report >@fllthdcrb: Yes they have different meanings even if we don't want to reach that level of detail here in VNDB, telling that they are synonyms doesn't help.
The thing interesting here is that you want to propose it under Talking Patterns and it makes sense since:
Laconic is used to describe someone who communicates great meaning without using many words. It applies equally to speech patterns and styles of writing
For example we have also the term laconic phrase

Instead taciturn is "temperamentally disinclined to talk" the term doesn't go deep on how a person talks when he overcomes his temperament so it could not fall under "Talking Pattern".
But what bothers me is that we just changed Taciturn and that would mean splitting it up.

The other idea could be just propose "Laconism" under talking pattern.Last modified on 2020-03-28 at 06:08
#2082 by rampaa
2020-03-28 at 12:02
< report >
No, I'm pretty sure she *did* have a naked sprite in the original version of "Tatarigoroshi-hen"
I played the game with the PS3 graphics, so I might be wrong about that, and if I was wrong I'm sorry. I would appreciate it more if you could share the said screenshot though. I'm still doubtful whether or not we (the reader) see her completely naked (ie. visible nipples and/or genitals).
#2083 by beliar
2020-03-28 at 12:04
< report >I can assure you we see her completely naked. There was quite a controversy that the updated graphics clothed her in a towel.
I don't have the screen now, but I doubt it will be hard to find it online.
#2084 by rampaa
2020-03-28 at 12:11
< report >Then it is my bad and thank you for correcting me. Though this does not change my stance regarding the aforementioned trait's usefulness. But I guess I will have to wait for Warfoki for that.
#2085 by saeryen
2020-03-28 at 16:34
< report >I'm gonna go ahead and propose traits for specifying whose child someone is.
#2086 by naiohoras
2020-03-28 at 16:38
< report >^I think it's unneeded since in the far future there will be a character relations chart.

...but you already did it anyway...Last modified on 2020-03-28 at 16:40
#2087 by saeryen
2020-03-28 at 16:40
< report >^Yeah, I didn't see your post until I'd done it, sorry.

Are the charts going to replace all the relationship traits?Last modified on 2020-03-28 at 16:41
#2088 by naiohoras
2020-03-28 at 16:47
< report >I don't think so, I'm guessing it will use the existing traits but with "whose?" option beside it like when choosing a cast for a character, but that's only Yorhel to know.Last modified on 2020-03-28 at 16:49
#2089 by barfboy
2020-03-31 at 01:01
< report >I don't know if this has already been asked so I'm sorry.

What counts as 'sex' between girls? Licking, touching, groping, etc. When do we apply the Lesbian Sex trait?
#2090 by naiohoras
2020-03-31 at 06:35
< report >I think it applies when two females are engaging in sexual act *in general* so licking and fingering counts. touching and groping are included as long as they mean it as sexual play not just playful ones.
#2091 by altonan
2020-03-31 at 08:16
< report >Not sure if this has been asked before regarding traits but if a character has a trait applicable in a non-canon route but not in the canon route should the trait still be added? E.g. If a character suffers a injury in a non-canon route but not in the canon route and the sequel confirms this since the sequel not only follows the canon ending but literally could not happen if the character was injured, is the injury trait still applicable? If the trait was added to the characters profile should it be removed?Last modified on 2020-03-31 at 08:17
#2092 by naiohoras
2020-03-31 at 08:22
< report >yes, with "major spoiler" setting set. you can also put a description about it with spoiler tag.
#2093 by rampaa
2020-04-02 at 22:33
< report >@Warfoki welcome back! Would you mind giving t3314.2048 (and t3617.2234) a look when you have the time?
#2094 by warfoki
2020-04-03 at 20:51
< report >Alright, so I'll just go through everything that was posted since the 1st of March here and answer where it's needed. Thankfully this thread seems to have been less active, so maybe making this reply won't take another three hours...

@2042 Barfboy

Nah, both "Idol of the School" and "Princess of the School" are quite vague, situational and subjective. I can't think of a legit way to make trait out of this that wouldn't be applied to any character popular in school. And we have more than enough vague traits already...

____________________

@2048 Rampaa

I actually agree with Rampaa here. I already told so to Skorpiondeath in private thread, so I'll be lazy and just quote myself here: One word: ecchi. A genre where no actual sex happens but there are plenty of skin shown and a lot of, often fully body, nudity (with tactically places mist / shadows to hide genitals and nipples). It is an IMMENSELY popular genre, so you can bet that there are plenty of people who would be interested if their waifus will get naked or not. Now if the VN has sex scenes with said waifu, then that answers that, but if the VN isn't adults only, then we have nothing to indicate this. Besides we already have a tag that kinda shows if characters are shown naked, regardless if they have sex or not: Naked Sprites. Yeah, not the same thing, but its active usage shows that a lot of people find nudity in and of itself to be an important aspect to tag.

As for Rape by Others, again, Rampaa has a point about the method switch. Specific child traits are preferable when possible, instead of blanket coverage by a singular generic trait. If people really do not care and the trait won't get used, we can always get rid of it later. My only slight issue is not with this trait specifically, but rather that the "by Other" traits are bit inconsistent. Usually it means "by non-protagonists", but Pregnancy (by other) stick out like a sore thumb there. Still, that's kinda unrelated. With that being said, rape will remain applicable. Both me and Skorpiondeath often fill out character sheets based on exhentai galleries. It's usually plainly obvious when a character is being raped, less so by whom, since the rapists rarely have their face or any recognizable body features drawn. Making rape inapplicable would mean that we either don't tag it (which is bad, since rape is a dealbreaker for many, so it's quite important to have it there) or take a guess (which is bad because it will inevitably lead to mistagging). My one question: should this trait be applicable if the character in question is gang raped, but that gang includes the protagonist as well or only if this character is raped without the protagonist actively participating in said rape?

Avoidable / Unavoidable traits: i find these VERY useful and important. Not just in terms of moderation, but on a personal level too. Unavoidable death or rape of a heroine in a non-nukige VN is usually a total dealbreaker for me, avoidable ones aren't and I don't think I'm alone in that. Yes, this opens up the gates for some more specific traits, but I don't see that as a problem, as long as said traits are useful and informative. Yes, that can make character pages look messy, but honestly, that's not something you or I can fix, I seriously think that the presentation of both the traits on character pages and tags on VN pages are in a dire need of an overhaul to make them more usable. That's on Yorhel's side though.

@Rampaa: This is not directly related to the post in question, but still: do you think Sex with Protagonist Only is mutually exclusive with Group Sex traits? So, if the character only has sex when the protagonist is involved, but this includes group sex scenes when they have sex with the protagonist AND others as well at the same time, should the trait be applicable? I'm leaning towards no, as it would make the trait too broad, but it's not clarified and you seem to be leaning towards yes, so a consensus on this would be nice.

____________________

@2069 Rampaa

The description of Concubine is really, REALLY lacking. Like, it describes a lover essentially, which is orders of magnitudes more vague than what concubine is supposed to mean. This one needs a revamp, stat. Problem is, no idea how to actually do that at the moment. Like, we can use Naiohoras' description ("concubine was positioned between sex slave and wife since they've got some rights a wife got, though very few, and it's different between places.") but that too is quite vague. maybe I should just rename it to lover, but that's too broad...

____________________

@2074 Naiohoras

Okay, this has absolutely fuck all to do with traits, but as a history nerd, I feel the need to go off on a tangent here, so fuck it, I'll do it. At pretty much every point in time in human history, incest between closest blood relatives were forbidden. Mostly because we are biologically programmed to find the idea of having sex with a sister or mother or father icky, so consequently anyone doing that will be seen weird and as we all know humans are in general averse of weird things. Of course this whole "feel icky" thing is fundamentally an instinct to prevent inbreeding which can have disastrous consequences in the long run. With that being said incest involving more distant relatives was WIDELY practiced from ancient times to the start of the modern era. There was this notion in most cultures of blood purity. You should not marry under your rank. Problem was, the aristocracy, especially the higher echelons of it was very limited and most went back a long time, which meant marrying to all kinds of distantly blood related cousins was all the rage from ancient Egypt to the Habsburg dynasty. Studying the still existing remains of royalty and high nobility of ages past quite often shows all kinds of genetic deformations thanks to generations of inbreeding like that.

Tangent is over, back to business.

____________________

@2077 Saeryen

I agree with you that those relation traits in and of themselves can be a problem. The issue is that your suggested solution doesn't really solve this. Like Main Character's Son, okay, but which one? The fact that the default option for a new character in the database is "main character" further compounds the problem, since often protagonists or side characters are marked as main ones, since people forget / don't care to change it. Especially since a lot of characters are created blank, with nothing but an image and a name with the sole purpose of being able to add the voice actors to the database. As I see it adapting these traits will do very little to solve the confusion, but will bloat the database with a whole lot of traits of questionable usefulness. I don't see that as a beneficial compromise. I don't think this can really be solved via traits honestly, what we need is a relationship graph for characters, similar to the one we have for releases. This, unfortunately, is out of my hands and Yorhel would have to implement it.

____________________

@2089 Barfboy

What is sex

Well, you see my boy, there are the bees and the birds and then they marry the stork in God's house and then babies happen.

Jokes aside, everything that you mentioned. Petting, fingering, licking...

____________________

Well, that was whole less painful than the tag thread, thankfully.Last modified on 2020-04-03 at 21:07
#2095 by rampaa
2020-04-03 at 21:12
< report >
should Rape by Others trait be applicable if the character in question is gang raped, but that gang includes the protagonist as well
Yes, if she is raped by others as well, it should apply.

do you think Sex with Protagonist Only is mutually exclusive with Group Sex traits
I think it depends on the group sex. If the protagonist is the only male in the group, I think Sex with Protagonist Only should apply, but if there are other men involved it shouldn't. Sex with Others has a section that clarifies it.

My reasoning is that I think most would agree that if the protagonist is having sex with a bunch of girls at the same time, none of the girls are getting "shared", if you will. Having another man in the same group sex, on the other hand, would have a totally different affect. And this is pretty much a "your waifu is not shared" trait, so, yeah.Last modified on 2020-04-03 at 21:14
#2096 by warfoki
2020-04-03 at 21:15
< report >No, that's way too convoluted and subjective to work as a codified rule. We need a non-gendered yes or no answer, maybe with a very limited number of notable exceptions, that's it.
#2097 by rampaa
2020-04-03 at 21:27
< report >Saying "yes" would limit the trait greatly, saying no would make it pretty useless. So if I had to choose, I would say yes.

But here's my attempt to create a non-gendered rule instead:
If there's no other character who has the same sex of the protagonist in the group sex Sex with Protagonist Only can apply.

And probably it should also mention clones should be judged as a part of their original body and not as "other" people.

EDIT:
Here's an alternative non-gendered rule: If the group sex scenes only include characters whose sex the protagonist feels attracted to, then Sex with Protagonist Only can apply.

Either of those would work for me just fine.Last modified on 2020-04-03 at 21:41
#2098 by gabezhul
2020-04-03 at 21:34
< report >@Warfoki: The thing about Concubine is that the term has three related and yet very distinct meanings.

First, there were the historical/legal concubines from cultures with polygamy, where there was a legal wife, whose children inherited the titles and assets of the household, while concubines were considered "spares" in case the legal wife died without producing an heir, or in some cases if the titles absolutely required a male heir and she only gave birth to girls, in which case boys from concubines could inherit. In other words, it's a pretty complex status that was considered inferior by society, but they technically still belonged to their "husband's" family.

Then the second version is related to the first, where the concubine is still a "spare", so to speak, yet they are held in a much more positive light, usually in the sense that the legal wife was for arranged marriages for forming familial and political connections, while the concubine was chosen for actual love and affection. In this case, the term "concubine" hold way less pejorative baggage.

And then there is the third, modern, version of the term, which is referencing the historical version, where a married man is having an affair with another woman who is not his legal wife. However, the "concubine" in this context is something completely different, as there is no polygamy, nor are they acknowledged as being part of the "clan" or just the extended family.

IMHO the trait should be split in two: one for Historical Concubine (Description: A person, usually a woman, in a sanctioned polygamous relationship with a man who already has a legal wife, and whose children cannot inherit his titles or estate.) and Contemporary Concubine (Description: A person, usually a woman, who is engaged in a romantic and/or sexual relationship with a married man for money, benefits, or mutual affection.)Last modified on 2020-04-03 at 21:46
#2099 by skorpiondeath
2020-04-03 at 21:40
< report >
Both me and Skorpiondeath often fill out character sheets based on exhentai galleries.
I shouldn't have shared this but....well go tell this to my monkey squadron.
If Pregnancy (by other) is such a problem why not rename it to something like "Pregnancy (by unlegitimate partner)" a bit long and weird maybe but at least it's weirdness will let the people check the descripion. That "other" is truly misleading because it seems so much "By other than the protagonist" that many people will skip description just for that reason.

Avoidable / Unavoidable traits: i find these VERY useful and important
I've got scolded heavily by warfoki and lost 3 moderator points in the process, my quarantine revoked with 1 month of social works at the public park with no internet allowance.
About traits character page being messy and overloaded yes it could be reworked in some way by Yorhel, and to be honest ctrl+f is your friend. I mostly doubted the usefulness since I cannot say I didn't want just for the sakeness of a cleaner character page...that would be extremely incoherent by my part.Last modified on 2020-04-03 at 21:45
#2100 by beliar
2020-04-03 at 21:45
< report >
Contemporary Concubine
That might be needlessly confusing.
Just call Contemporary Concubine a Mistress, as it is the most prevalent modern title to a lover of a married man. Add a note in the description of a Concubine that it should be only used for historical occurrences, and Mistress should be used for the modern version.

Also: Gabezhul is alive!? The planets must have aligned in a certain order for him to grace us with his presence. :-)

"Pregnancy (by unlegitimate partner)"
Yes, please. Currently the trait sticks up like a sore thumb and even I got confused me a few times. This seems like a wise decision.

I've got scolded heavily by warfoki and lost 3 moderator points in the process
I'll take part of the blame, as I was in agreement with you and I actually did the denying :-DLast modified on 2020-04-03 at 21:49