Tags suggestions/fixes

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#2676 by nyaaamii
2021-11-21 at 16:24
< report >Could we get a 'Galge' tag (or whatever tag you seem fitting) for vns featuring a male protagonist and are about romancing girls? I'd like to be able to filter out those vns, thanks.
#2677 by Ezezin
2021-11-21 at 16:40
< report >It was discussed several times over the years about the addition of a Kamige/Bishoujo Game/Moege tag, and every single time those requests were rejected. In short words: too subjective and prone to misstagging.

You can use this instead: link
#2678 by nyaaamii
2021-11-21 at 16:53
< report >How is it more subjective than the 'Otome' tag?
Also, the alternative you propose doesn't work at all. I'm not looking for vns with a male protagonist and romance, I want to filter out specifically vns that are ABOUT dating multiple girls as a male protagonist. I don't really like reading vns with male protagonists, but I can tolerate it if the story is good and it's not about dating/having sex with a bunch of girls.
#2679 by Ezezin
2021-11-21 at 17:05
< report >
How is it more subjective than the 'Otome' tag?
I don't know, I'm just repeating what mods said in several lengthy discussions over the years since the creation of this website. If you want, you can try to convince the tagmods about its inclusion, but so far I didn't saw that they would change their position about this.

Also, the alternative you propose doesn't work at all.
I'll try to come with a solution and create a thread in your user profile to avoid getting off topic.Last modified on 2021-11-21 at 17:10
#2680 by nyaaamii
2021-11-21 at 17:46
< report >
you can try to convince the tagmods about its inclusion
I'd love to, how can I do that?
I'll try to come with a solution and create a thread in your user profile to avoid getting off topic.
That would be much appreciated, thank you.
#2681 by Ezezin
2021-11-21 at 18:12
< report >Submit a new tag to add it in the moderation queue using this link. Once you filled all fields, write in the summary section (do not confuse it with the description field) why do you think the tag you are proposing could be useful.
Important: Once you submitted a tag for moderation, only tagmods can change/edit them, so double check what you wrote.

Keep in mind that it could take days or weeks (sometimes even months) before a decision is made. One more thing, you can tag visual novels with it while is awaiting for moderation, but you won't be able to use it in queries until the tag is approved.

Maybe you already know this, but just in case read d9#4 and d10#2.2 first.

Edit: tag descriptions can be very long or as short as 6 words, the important thing is that it has to precise in what the tag means and when it should be used so other users can use it correctly (no one like misstagging cases).Last modified on 2021-11-21 at 18:44
#2682 by historyeraser
2021-11-21 at 20:31
< report >The real reason there is no galge tag is because ubiquitous to the point that it will always be undertagged
#2683 by nyaaamii
2021-11-21 at 20:46
< report >
The real reason there is no galge tag is because ubiquitous to the point that it will always be undertagged
What do you mean?
#2684 by historyeraser
2021-11-21 at 20:59
< report >Literally 95% of all VNs are galge. It's impossible to tag each every one on this site. There literally is 31368 VNs on the site. Judging from previous tag deletions, the dbmods will not accept such a tag since other tags have been deleted for the same reason. You wouldn't actually be able to filter out all of them.Last modified on 2021-11-21 at 21:02
#2685 by nyaaamii
2021-11-21 at 21:14
< report >
Literally 95% of all VNs are galge
This is proven wrong with just a simple query. I filtered out all vns having the tags Female Protagonist and Boy x Boy Romance Only, and went from 31368 to 24219, which is 77%. And mind you, the vns left are still NOT all galge.Last modified on 2021-11-21 at 21:14
#2686 by historyeraser
2021-11-21 at 21:15
< report >I exaggerated the percentage there but my main point still stands that even if a galge tag was made, it would always be undertagged, and you wouldn't be able to actually filter them out.Last modified on 2021-11-21 at 21:19
#2687 by nyaaamii
2021-11-21 at 21:22
< report >Sexual Content covers 19167 vns, which is 61% of the whole database.
Male Protagonist covers 14083 vns, which is 45% of the whole database.
As there can't be more vns that are tagged 'Galge' than Male Protagonist, 'Galge' would only cover at most 45% of vns. Which should not be a problem since we already have a tag that covers 61% of the database.
#2688 by Mutsuki
2021-11-22 at 13:47
< report >#2687, yes, but the sexual content tag has existed since the dawn of time (as have all of these very common tags, which means they've been added as the game was added), and also can be automatically applied based on other criteria. if you add a galge tag, you will have to manually judge every game and add every single tag now. if you don't have a good fast way to add all of these, then the tag is going to be useless until you have added the tag on most of the relevant vns... and if you did have a realiable, quick, fast way to add them, then you could just search filter by that, meaning the tag is pointless. also what about edge cases?Last modified on 2021-11-22 at 13:51
#2689 by nyaaamii
2021-11-22 at 15:11
< report >#2688, Your reasoning doesn't make sense. You're basically arguing that there is no "realiable, quick, fast way" to filter Galge VNs already, so we SHOULDN'T add a tag that makes it possible. Your only argument is that the Galge tag would be useless because it isn't already implemented. By this logic, it would render all new tag suggestions useless because they don't automatically -magically- apply to existing VNs retroactively.
Out of the 4 main romance types - BxG, GxB, BxB, GxG - we have tags for the 3 last but not one for the first one. How does this make sense? Plus, it doesn't seem that this absence of tag is based on any sound argument. When you look at the reason this tag (Bishoujo Game) was denied, it says "We didn't get this one at all..." even though the mods linked the wikipedia article of 'Bishoujo game' which defines it pretty clearly as "a type of Japanese video game centered on interactions with attractive girls. These games are a subgenre of dating sims targeted towards a heterosexual male audience." I do not wish to insult the mods, but seriously, how does one not understand the definition of this tag?
The arguments that it would be too late to add the Galge tag, or that the tag would be too vague (cf Otome Game) are non-sensical. Adding the Galge tag would be like adding any new tag, it would take time for it to become relevant database-wise, but it would be there and relevant VNs could be tagged as such.
Regarding edge cases, I'm sure there is already a good amount of tags that, when applied to specific VNs, make similar edge cases. Yet, they don't invalidate the utility of the tag itself when applied to relevant VNs. Regardless, edge cases don't justify that an useful tag shouldn't exist.
#2690 by Mutsuki
2021-11-22 at 15:58
< report >#2689, ok imagine we put the tag in. there are currently 0 vns associated with the tag. how do you propose you put the tag on your ~45% of all vns on the site, to actually make the tag useful for finding those vns? if you go for the "oh don't worry it'll happen in time" strategy, nobody will use the tag for searches (because nobody has tagged anything the tag isn't on vns that it should be on, so the tag won't be useful at that point), so nobody will know about the tag, so nobody will tag any vns with the tag. a half hearted effort to try and tag them all (e.g. you do half of all galge and then you say, i'll leave the rest to someone else) won't work either because the tag not being there could either mean nobody's tagged it, or that it actually isn't a galge-- you can't tell, hence tag worthless for its intended purpose of filtering out galge only.

unless you are willing to manually sit there and tag all of them, the tag is not going to have value.

my point with the quick, reliable solution is that it needs to be manually done to avoid false positives and negatives, and if you can find a good automatic filtering criteria, then why aren't you just using that to filter out galge? why do we need a specific tag for it?Last modified on 2021-11-22 at 16:02
#2691 by beliar
2021-11-22 at 16:38
< report >The thing is, Mutsuki is totally right. It's ideal when a tag corresponds to maybe a few hundred to a few thousand entries. Anything more, and any tag that wasn't here since the very beginning of the tag implementation will be underrepresented, and wouldn't be able to be used to filter VNs. It could be okay to maybe approve such ubiquitous technical tags, as no one will use them for filtering, but something like your proposed Galge would have absolutely no purpose if implemented. I can assure you that even ten years from now the tag if approved would be underrepresented and wildly mistagged in the database.

Which brings me to my second point - mistagging. Otome game tag is pretty well established, and we still get edit wars, because people cannot agree what constitutes an "Otome Game". Galge as a tag has no meaning - in essence we would have to craft our own description, and don't point me to that Wiki article, as that description is bullshit. No one can agree what is or isn't Galge/Bishoujo-ge.

It's only theoretical that it's a game about a male protagonist pursuing girls. However, no one can agree how important and how ubiquitous the dating/pursuing aspect should be. In essence, most people believe that pretty much any game where the protag spends time with girls should be tagged as a galge. Is Muv-Luv a galge? Well, most people would agree it is. Is Muv_Luv Alternative a galge? Majority of people would agree it is, as the MC spends most of his time in the presence of the girls. What about Higurashi? Ditto. Fate/Stay Night? Absolutely a galge - it even has routes for each girl. You see what the problem is? The tag has no meaning, as everyone and everyone will tag whichever game they believe is galge, even if we craft our own description. This is not a discussion about edge cases - the whole database is an edge case, and one person's plotge is another's galge, as long as the game has girls.

With those two unsolvable problems in our way, I will never approve such or similar tag. You just have to learn to filter out, instead of filter in the Vns. Without manually tagging half the database, it's even more accurate than the newly created tag would be for at least a decade.
#2692 by nyaaamii
2021-11-22 at 16:42
< report >#2690 Please explain why this tag should be treated differently from other newly added tags. Galge should simply be applied to relevant VNs like any new tag is applied to relevant VNs. I fail to see how that would be different here. Whether the tag would apply to 10% or 45% of the VNs on the database is irrelevant because 1) we don't have a time limit to tag these VNs and 2) it's not an issue if all VNs aren't correctly tagged - it certainly isn't optimal, but it isn't an issue either.

Your arguments don't make sense because they aren't based on logic, but rather on the belief that Galge would be an useless tag no matter what. If you think that it takes time for such a tag to be applied to all relevant VNs on the database, we should add it now so it can be used as soon as possible, instead of arguing that it shouldn't be added because "it's too late". Once again, we do not have a time limit.

my point with the quick, reliable solution is that it needs to be manually done to avoid false positives and negatives, and if you can find a good automatic filtering criteria, then why aren't you just using that to filter out galge? why do we need a specific tag for it?
This 'argument' is quite funny when you look at it, because you've argued that the Galge tag is useless in both cases of whether we have a quick way to filter out Galge. Which means you're opposed to Galge being a tag for unknown reason rather than a logical one.
#2693 by historyeraser
2021-11-22 at 20:19
< report >
it's not an issue if all VNs aren't correctly tagged
This defeats the point of even having tags in the first place. If it's not gonna be used correctly, then the tag won't be added. It's as simple as that.
#2694 by nyaaamii
2021-11-22 at 22:26
< report >#2691 Then at least explain how to discriminate story-focused VNs from dumb VNs that are just about satisfying a straight male audience with a bunch of attractive-looking girls. Because even the top 50 rated VNs is clogged with them, or at least that's what they seem to be.
#2695 by SkiesMostWanted
2021-11-24 at 05:35
< report >Was wondering this for a while, by how come 'Defloration by an Object' is a valid tag, but not a trait? It seems much more practical to have it applied to a character rather than an entire VN. Also considering the tag has only been used 27 times in the entire db.
#2696 by Ezezin
2021-11-24 at 05:49
< report >
how come 'Defloration by an Object' is a valid tag, but not a trait?
There is a simple answer for that: no one submitted an equivalent trait for it (yet) or talked about it.
#2697 by gambs
2021-11-25 at 20:22
< report >I think the name/description of Kanji Puns doesn't really fit its purpose in practice. As of now it says:

Kanji puns

This game has considerable number of Japanese-specific jokes generally referring to the design, etymology, radical composition etc. of kanji.

but frequently this tag is used for VNs that use kanji or other Japanese-specific things for serious plot points, not jokes. I think it would make more sense if it were something like

Japanese language dependence

This game has considerable number of jokes or plot points that require knowledge of the Japanese language or kanji.
Last modified on 2021-11-25 at 20:23
#2698 by Ezezin
2021-11-26 at 18:09
< report >Non-explicit Nudity Only: Name doesn't match with its description and example. The tag is also used for both non-explicit and explicit nudity by users.

I propose to rename the tag as "Nudity only", put "non-explicit nudity only" as alias and update the description:
Example of explicit nudity only: Ascendant Hearts
Example of non-explicit nudity only: Sakura Shrine Girls
Last modified on 2021-11-26 at 19:55
#2699 by beliar
2021-11-26 at 18:44
< report >Erm, no. There is nothing contradictory in the description or the example. "Explicit" means the unobscured presence of genitals, most of the time involving the contact between them. Bare breasts are still "non-explicit" nudity.
If a movie advertises as having "non-explicit nudity" that means you have to expect tits galore and even an occasional bush, though no real sex scenes.

Gambs' proposal seems to expand the definition of the tag, at the same time making it less precise. I fear that it would lead to either overtagging or undertagging. Though I wonder what the other users think.
#2700 by Mrkew
2021-11-26 at 20:40
< report >I agree with expanding the tag, because I think the existing trait Puns is good enough. That said, the newly proposed name and description are very bad.