|#2951 by kei-tr|
2022-10-12 at 14:12
|< report >There are lots of "avoidable" and "unavoidable" words in my post again, sorry for that beforehand.|
This is a complicated subject enough so I didn't want to overcomplicate things by talking about bad and true endings, that's why I always talked about good endings when I gave my examples :(
Heroine A dies on bad endings from Route A. She doesn't die at all in Route B.
Heroine B dies on bad endings from Route B. She always dies on route A.
Route B good ending is the true ending.
We use Only Bad End Death of Heroine and Avoidable Death of Heroine, explaining in notes why the parent tag is used with its child tag.
So, if death of Heroine B wasn't completely avoidable and she dies not only in her bad endings but in her good ending as well, then that would be Unavoidable Death of Heroine right? But death in her own route is avoidable in your example but her death isn't avoidable in another heroine's (A) route, that's why you gave Avoidable Death of Heroine, am I right? In short, if death can be avoided in her route but not other routes then Avoidable Death of Heroine. That means you didn't use tag's current definition (because the current definition doesn't tell us a ****, so you can't really use that) but used the same definition in my previous post.
Heroine A now learns how to use a handgun. She doesn't die on any routes. Route A is her own route.
Heroine B dies at the end of Route B (her own route). She also dies on several bad endings from Route A (while not her route, she is important for the plot, so when she dies: game over).
We use Avoidable Death of Heroine and Unavoidable Death of Heroine.
Heroine B dies bad endings in route A so shouldn't that be Only Bad End Death of Heroine instead of Avoidable Death of Heroine? But if that's not a mistake then that means you used my description again for a heroine dying in another route.
The point I want to make is that the avoidable/unavoidable tags are not useful when used on a VN as a whole
Admittedly I never thought of using them separately for each character or each event and used them for the whole vn (probably most users also do the same thing). You used even both Avoidable Death of Heroine and Unavoidable Death of Heroine tags for same heroine in your second example. I can't tell you enough how confusing and unhelpful would be to see both Avoidable Death of Heroine and Unavoidable Death of Heroine tags in the same vn and for same heroine (you said we shouldn't change current definitions too much and confuse people but you are doing most confusing thing ever by doing this). That also means you can tag almost all vns with both Avoidable Death of Heroine and Unavoidable Death of Heroine tags because there are very few vns where all heroines die in their own routes (since Unavoidable Death of Heroine tag is not "Only Unavoidable Death of Heroine" and its current state already covers Avoidable Death of Heroine most of the time). It gets even more out of hand when it comes to rape because contrary to death one person can get raped multiple times. Correct me if I am wrong but tags are there to help users to find vns they are interested in or avoid a vn they are not interested right? Not to define every single thing a vn has. I gave this example in my first post but in case a heroine gets raped 5 times in her route but only 4 of these are avoidable then both Avoidable Rape and Unavoidable Rape tags can be used right? How could this help someone? It can be used ≠ helpful. In this case, confusing and even misleading. And as you said we can always use traits for specifics.
Doing anything more than this and we risk the already tagged entries to be misstagged very easily and future uses hard to fix (no one reads the tags)
Actually, I didn't suggest this in my first post because I didn't want to intimidate mods who are reluctant to even make tags inapplicable but we can always cut Gordian Knot by deleting "Avoidable" tags since they are the source of all evil, confusion and complicatedness. That way there wouldn't be mistagged vns either (none of the child/other tags has this troublesome middle tier either).
But even in the worst-case scenario, those definitions should be made more clear and examples should be given if necessary. You can't possibly get any of Ezezin's explanations of tags from the current definitions of tags.
You explained why you don't prefer descriptions getting changed too much but what is your opinion about making "Avoidables" inapplicable or deleting them completely?
Some of those tags can be deleted, like Ponytail Heroine. The tag only says "a heroine has a ponytail in this game" but Ponytail trait is more informative because it says "this heroine has a ponytail" (though not all vns have a character page, there is also that). But when it comes to something like Childhood Friend trait it only says "this character is a childhood friend with some other character" and it could be anyone. But Protagonist's Childhood Friend as a Heroine tag says "a heroine is protagonist's childhood friend", more informative than trait and covers something different.Last modified on 2022-10-12 at 15:00
|#2952 by Ezezin|
2022-10-12 at 19:03
|< report >About deleting Hero/Heroine tags, It's mostly about how heroine is not properly defined, so those tags are used almost everywhere and how we don't have hero/heroine information on characters.|
I'm planning on starting a proposal about that, but that's an entirely different discussion that could take days, so don't take me seriously on that part (yet).
but used the same definition in my previous post.Not really. In my first example, what I did was read the descriptions of every other avoidable child tag and because those weren't applicable in my example, I had to use the most closest one available, which is Avoidable Death of Heroine. Unavoidable Death of Heroine current description says "no matter what you do [...]" which, in my understanding (I could be wrong), means "at least one heroine dies in the common route or in all routes and this can't be avoided with choices or succeeding in gameplay parts". If there is at least one route/ending where heroines never die, I believe this tag should not be used.
In my second example, I didn't used Only Bad End Death of Heroine because current description says "At least one heroine of this story only dies in one or more bad endings." And yeah, using both unavoidable and avoidable on the same VN is very confusing, I agree with that.
deleting "Avoidable" tags since they are the source of all evil, confusion and complicatedness.Exactly my point. In my opinion, those tags are already beyond the point of salvation, so a description change won't fix anything (it could create even more inconsistency). That's why I suggested to make equivalent traits for characters instead. Since traits can be used differently for every character, this allows for more specific information than what tags can offer.
Of course, if we do this, the tags need to remain unchanged for some time until the majority of characters are properly tagged and because we don't have hero/heroine information on characters, some of the tags can't be deleted.
So in simple words: Make traits equivalents for the avoidable/unavoidable tags but for the time being don't change their use, make them unapplicable or delete them. Once most characters are already tagged and have hero/heroine information in them, delete almost all avoidable and unavoidable tags and create three broad ones, so we can use them with character traits:
- Only avoidable death/rape of hero/heroine/protagonist: You can play until the end without seeing this content. All deaths/rapes in every route for every heroes/heroines/protagonists are avoidable in some way. If you must see at least one death/rape scene to unlock the good ending or true ending, use Some avoidable death/rape of hero/heroine/protagonist instead.
- Some avoidable death/rape of hero/heroine/protagonist: at least one hero/heroine/protagonist dies in the common route or in any of several routes and this can't be avoided with choices or succeeding in gameplay parts, however there is at least another hero/heroine/protagonist which death/rape scenes that can be avoided entirely.
- Unavoidable death/rape hero/heroine/protagonist: None of the death/rape scenes are avoidable in any way. This might be because of Meaningless Choices, the visual novel is a Kinetic Novel or because all deaths/rapes from a Enforced Playing Order visual novel must be seen before reaching a route with no deaths/rapes.
Another option that I would like to avoid, but it could work if given enough time, is making the current troublesome avoidable/unavoidable tags unapplicable and create new avoidable/unavoidable tags with new definitions and uses, intended to replace the old tags. Once the majority of entries are properly tagged, delete the old ones.Last modified on 2022-10-12 at 19:06
|#2953 by kei-tr|
2022-10-12 at 21:21
|< report >|
If there is at least one route/ending where heroines never die, I believe this tag should not be used.
I see. For me, it's enough if one of the heroines dies in good ending of her own route. I still would use Unavoidable Death of Heroine if she survived in another heroine's route (Death of a heroine in her own route is probably more important than her death at some other route. I mean, I probably get frustrated when I read her route and saw her death if vn isn't tagged as such just because she survives at some random non-bad ending route). Btw, your "Some avoidable death/rape of hero/heroine/protagonist" definition looks to me like "Unavoidable..." because someone has to die/get raped and your "Unavoidable death/rape hero/heroine/protagonist" definition looks to me like "Only Unavoidable..." because every scene/event is like that.
Of course, if we do this, the tags need to remain unchanged for some time until the majority of characters are properly tagged and because we don't have hero/heroine information on characters, some of the tags can't be deleted.
But they still should be made inapplicable until they are deleted right? That way their numbers wouldn't increase until deletion time comes.
Just to clarify this, when I talked about deleting or making "Avoidables" inapplicable in my previous posts I only meant Avoidable Death of Heroine/Hero, Avoidable Rape and Avoidable Netorare tags. I find other tags, including "Unavoidables", pretty useful, especially when specific child tags are used.Last modified on 2022-10-13 at 00:32
|#2954 by Ezezin|
2022-10-13 at 01:05
|< report >|
it's enough if one of the heroines dies in good ending of her own route.
Death of a heroine in her own route is probably more important than her death at some other route.The only way I see where we can have avoidable/unavoidable death/rape information for routes instead of generic information for the whole visual novel is making a whole rework on all the tags, including creating some new tags for Routes or move the current ones. After that, adjust some descriptions with restrictions on what routes should be use instead of simply use them on rape/death and making sure those tags works for the majority of possibilities and don't get confusing when a bunch of routes have several different types of rape/death. (Basically the second option I said earlier). I still think these are specifics for character entries, but I can understand why users may want tags for this instead.
But they still should be made inapplicable until they are deleted right?Experience tells me that when a tag or trait is made unapplicable, people start downvoting the tag or removing the trait without using the new tag/trait, which in turn hurts searching a lot. This is usually not a problem for tags with few uses, but we are talking about very old heavily used tags (at least couple of them are like that).
your "Some avoidable death/rape of hero/heroine/protagonist" definition looks to me like "Unavoidable..."Yeah. The idea was to change the name so it can be easily deduced that some of them are avoidable and others unavoidable, but in practice, its use is somewhat similar.
your "Unavoidable death/rape hero/heroine/protagonist" definition looks to me like "Only Unavoidable..." because every scene/event is like that.You're totally right.
|#2955 by kei-tr|
2022-10-13 at 02:29
|< report >|
Yes, but if the parent tags are deleted, where should the child tags go? Might as well make them unaplicable and not searchable, which is something I really want to avoid.
Huh? I simply thought their child tags would go under tags one level above them. Child tags of Avoidable Death of Heroine/Hero will go under Death of Heroine/Hero, child tags of Avoidable Rape will go under Rape and child tag of Avoidable Netorare will go under Netorare ("Unavoidables" are already directly under these tags). Basically, they will be adopted by their grandparents. Is there a problem with that? The most problematic ones by far are these three parent tags. Their child tags on the other hand, "Only Avoidables", are always most helpful ones and they are also clearest ones to understand. They mean every death/rape/netorare that happens in a vn is either completely avoidable or happens only in their separate bad ends. So I absolutely would want to continue using them.Last modified on 2022-10-13 at 02:41
|#2956 by Ezezin|
2022-10-13 at 04:48
|< report >|
I simply thought their child tags would go under tags one level above them.huh... I thought a parent tag can't be deleted until a new parent tag is assigned to child tags first. Maybe Beliar can clarify us what happens when a parent tag is deleted?
Anyway, I still think those tags should not be deleted or made unapplicable until a better replacement can be made (another tag or an equivalent trait), at least for the time being, except Avoidable Netorare. No strong objections on that one.Last modified on 2022-10-13 at 04:55
|#2957 by kei-tr|
2022-10-13 at 05:44
|< report >I mean, you asked "where should child tags go?" and I simply meant we should put them one level above. I didn't think they would go by themselves, we can always put them there before deleting them right?Last modified on 2022-10-13 at 13:42|
|#2958 by beliar|
2022-10-13 at 19:19
|< report >When it comes to all those avoidable tags, I only use them in single certain instance - if I read only a part of a novel, say a prologue or a single route, and don't check it further, and encounter a scene where a heroine rape can be avoided, I add Avoidable Rape, because I'm not sure what content is further down. I have always looked at those tags that way, as I assumed their use is intended only for situations where you are not sure which of the more precise tags apply.|
However, it's a given that other users might use those tags in a different way, which makes it true that they are a mess and probably not salvageable. Ezezin's idea in t3617.2952 sounds like the most reasonable one, but it probably needs to be finetuned further. Despite Ezezin's protestation, I think it'sbest to make those traits unapplicable, and point in their descriptions to use the more precise Unavoidable and Avoidable Only tags. We don't want people continue voting on them and increase the mess that will eventually need to be retagged. Creating specific traits for the characters also sounds like a good idea, so as You have already volunteered, Ezezin, you know what your job is :-P
The only way I see where we can have avoidable/unavoidable death/rape information for routes instead of generic information for the whole visual novel is making a whole rework on all the tags, including creating some new tags for Routes or move the current ones.Sadly, will never work, because it's simply impossible to define what a Route is. There were attempts to do that, but all hit a brick wall. That way the madness lies. We should focus on the Vn as a whole and not on some imaginary "Routes" instead.
Experience tells me that when a tag or trait is made unapplicable, people start downvoting the tag or removing the trait without using the new tag/traitThat sadly happens occasionally, but these tags are not that numerous that the issue would be widespread. I still think making them unapplicable while we rework the structure of those tags is the best to prevent further messtagging (sic).
I mean, you asked "where should child tags go?" and I simply meant we should put them one level above. I didn't think they would go by themselves, we can always put them there before deleting them right?Yes, if they are simply deleted I would move them a tier above, but I don't think it's a good idea to delete them before instituting a better tag hierarchy like Ezezin tried to present. For now I think we should simply make them unapplicable with a description addition that points to use the more precise tags, while we finetune what broad tags and character traits should be added.
|#2959 by Ileca|
2022-10-17 at 01:51
|< report >I was gonna propose a AI Generated Assets tag but I see AI-generated Graphics is waiting for approval. I think generalizing to all form of AI content should be better atm as the thing is pretty rare (unless you want to create subtags already). By everything, I mean that you have a VN in alpha which generates "graphics, music, story and characters" > link. I think we already have a VN which generates text, can't remember the name tho. Anyway, could be good to generalize to catch all that kind of stuff at once, not just graphics.|
|#2960 by usagi|
2022-10-18 at 02:34
|< report >In my new tag Heroine From The Future pls change the word Protagonist in description to Heroine. I forgot to fix this typo from copy/paste Protagonist From The Future template. Also, Saber should be added as a canon example for Heroine From The Past. And summoning as an example of means to do it in addition to cryostasis etc.Last modified on 2022-10-18 at 03:01|
|#2961 by Ileca|
2022-10-19 at 09:39
|< report >Is there a tag for when a choice leads to randomized events? Like 3 different endings or one answer taken from a pool of answers. I feel like Randomized Events doesn't fit and Random Choices, honestly, I don't understand the description... "Choices are done at random"?|
|#2962 by NaioHoras|
2022-10-19 at 09:50
|< report >for Random Choices|
without the player having any control of the outcome aside of luck manipulationthis makes it sounds like an RNG, and seems like it might be what you are searching for. the tag proposer was Drjones with his initial vn usage for it was Love Hina ~Ai wa Kotoba no Naka ni~, and if you see the gameplay link, it looks like the exact situation you've described.
|#2963 by Ileca|
2022-10-19 at 11:29
|< report >I wasn't sure if the choices themselves weren't randomized. I had a little hard time distinguishing the two tags from each other. Fact is I chose the wrong tag before asking here.|
Wouldn't the following be clearer?
In this game, the choices themselves or their outcome are randomized. An example would be 3 choices from a pool of 10 appearing on the screen, or a choice leading to 1 ending out of 3. Once you go back, the game chooses 3 different choices or a different ending (unless luck gives you the exact same result).
|#2964 by NaioHoras|
2022-10-19 at 12:52
|< report >to be honest, I feel like that the tag is by a whole confusing. the tag name itself "Random Choices" makes me think the choices themselves are randomized, and the first part (this game are done at random) said that as well. although seems like people also use them for when the outcome are randomized (see link), probably because of the latter part of description.|
incidentally, Love Hina does both (it chooses the choices by a slot machine and then one of several events is chosen).
personally, the tag should be revised and I have no problem to change it with your description. let's see what Beliar has to say to it.
|#2965 by beliar|
2022-10-19 at 14:36
|< report >I don't really have a problem in changing the description of the tag, as the current one is indeed not that great.|
|#2966 by Draconyan|
2022-11-01 at 10:31
|< report >Can we have "Time Skip" as an alias of Time Jump?|
|#2967 by Ezezin|
2022-11-13 at 00:33
|< report >Alias of Classic Tsundere Heroine should be removed, I think.|
|#2968 by Ileca|
2022-11-21 at 23:36
|< report >I think I just proposed the fourth most important tag on the website: Ironic "dating sim".|
|#2969 by rampaa|
2022-11-22 at 15:03
|< report >Gay Male Domination should be a child tag of Male on Male Sex.|
Lesbian Domination should be a child tag of Lesbian SexLast modified on 2022-11-22 at 15:07
|#2970 by butterflygrrl|
2022-11-22 at 20:19
|< report >#2968 That's a confusing description IMO. A lot of people would call all the Anthropomorphized Inanimate Object games "ironic" even if the authors clearly put a lot of effort into them and HAVE played tons of other VNs. There are multiple games about dating moe Hitler-chan, for some reason, and they were meant seriously, not as some sort of parody. |
Is this meant to be all collections of weird dating subjects (in which case Hatoful Kareshi ~Kibou no Gakuen to Shiroi Tsubasa~ would count) or only games that were, stated by the author, deliberately trying to make fun of the concept of dating games? What about things like I Love You, Colonel Sanders! A Finger Lickin' Good Dating Simulator which wouldn't really qualify under having odd dating targets but is obviously that kind of parody? How is it different from the existing Parody tag?
|#2971 by Ileca|
2022-11-22 at 23:03
|< report >Yes, I wrote the tag in a way that it will be a collection of weird dating characters chosen for the lulz regardless of if they are good or not. Tags are not supposed to be about quality. Also, having to find the intentions of authors (on twiter) would prevent us from tagging a lot of stuff.|
Hatoful Kareshi and Sanders (I don't see why it wouldn't qualify, it's a freaking brand mascot) would count, maybe even Katawa Shoujo given that it was written by 4channers and feature disabled girls chosen for the lulz before taking its own subject seriously and achieving success (I may be wrong and don't intend to tag KS but if I am right, my point is that it would qualify).
I wrote "most of the time" in the name's explanation so being an ignorant calling visual novels dating sims is not mandatory. It is, after all, how outsiders call that game trend.
I looked at Anthropomorphized Inanimate Object and... boomerang girl, earth-chan, gun-heads... a lot of them will qualify. Not all of them, of course, if the VN is not about dating. Same, parody is not reserved for dating. I don't see why Gyakuten Saiban parodies would qualify.
Edit: I don't see how a dating game with moe Hitler-chan wouldn't be parodic. The concept of "moe Hitler-chan" is parodic by nature... to not have a parodic Hitler dating sim, it would have to feature Eva Braun and be written from an historian's point of view, what will never happen. You say "for some reason" but you sure know the intentions are to be provocative or for the lulz or whatever shit reason they have. And don't tell me being a gunji otaku is a good reason in itself coz it's not.
Edit2: tag could be a subtag of Parody. I don't see a problem with that.Last modified on 2022-11-22 at 23:22
|#2972 by butterflygrrl|
2022-11-22 at 23:27
|< report >I say "for some reason" because it baffles me that at least two separate people decided to make games where Hitler is a cute girl... Though I guess Mein Waifu is the Führer needs to be deleted now that DEVGRU-P broke up, but that's for another thread (edit: oh, allegedly the rights have been passed to someone else. allegedly.)|
I guess what I'm trying to ask is, if the game includes really weird dating targets but isn't intended as a parody / ironically, should it still be in the same category? And if so, what qualifies as weird? Is Irina Vladimirovna Putina more or less weird than Adorofia Hitora ?Last modified on 2022-11-22 at 23:29
|#2973 by Ileca|
2022-11-23 at 00:15
|< report >Good question. I was also wondering how would count BL pairing when you asked about parodies. If the couple is canon, it shouldn't count, but what about Naruhodou Ryuuichi x Mitsurugi Reiji?|
I would say that if the pairing was chosen "for the comical effect", it should qualify.
The tag's weight should distinguish between works with only the premise being ironic/parodic and the ones where the content is of the same nature.
Dating a president, even if it's not Trump, would qualify imo. Your Irina Vladimirovna Putina is a highly parodic character or are you telling me a parody of Putin (the name at least) is not? Even if it wasn't a parody of an existing president, I would say that it would still qualify. Why wouldn't it? Because it's Japanese? Dating a president in high school is silly and no different from dating a helicopter. The only difference is that one is "well made" and maybe unironically funny (?) and the other one made in Ren'py with shitty assets and results in a cringefest.
I understand your critic. We are losing the "Western dumpster fire of a trend" part of the tag but I don't want a double standard where I single out shitty Ren'py games dumped on Itch.io. Is there a problem in showing that this trend existed a long time ago even in Japanese games that are not historically linked to that "recent" Western trend?
In the end, when you want to filter out "ironic dating sims", why would you want Osananajimi wa Daitouryou: My girlfriend is the PRESIDENT. to stay included? The game is by definition a parody of romantic charage made for the lulz! And if you are fan of the trend, why wouldn't you want to play it for shit and giggles?
I say "for some reason" because it baffles me that at least two separate people decided to make games where Hitler is a cute girl... Though I guess Mein Waifu is the Führer needs to be deleted now that DEVGRU-P broke up, but that's for another thread (edit: oh, allegedly the rights have been passed to someone else. allegedly.)DEVGRU-P... they are the ones who made Attack Helicopter Dating Simulator which I consider to be at the peak of this trend!
There is nothing baffling here. They saw the ironic dating sim trend doing well. They wanted to take advantage of it. They thought: what would be the ultimate anthropomorphization/moeification/genderbending that would make people forget about fidget spinners and helicopters and talk about us everywhere? The natural answer was Hitler. You just can't top this figure.
It was a natural evolutionary result.Last modified on 2022-11-23 at 00:17
|#2974 by butterflygrrl|
2022-11-23 at 01:33
|< report >I'd suggest "High Concept" as an alias, or maybe "High Concept Comedy". As i understand the term, it works well for games with wacky premises that can be summed up like "you date appliances".|
|#2975 by Ileca|
2022-11-23 at 01:49
|< report >High Concept Romantic Comedy.|