Tags suggestions/fixes

Posted in

#2901 by bassttark
2022-09-06 at 17:55
< report >The tags Clothing ON/OFF and Nude Filter are very similar and it is very easy to confuse them. Their pages should have a note mentioning how to distinguish them.
#2902 by usagi
2022-09-10 at 17:57
< report >Bonus Episodes and Unlockable Side Stories - one of those two tags is redundant. They are basically the same tag. They should be merged into one, I suppose.
#2903 by catboy
2022-09-11 at 04:21
< report >#2902:

Isn't "Bonus Episodes" used for extra side stories in general, while the unlockable one is... well, unlockable? If anything, "Bonus Episodes" should just be a parent tag there I think.
#2904 by hansfranz77
2022-09-11 at 14:50
< report >Obligatory user block option request number umpteenth. link
This is just one example of many, I saw this bait-y bullshit happening with reviews in the past as well, so i would like to have an option to not have posts and reviews by a person of my choosing shown in the future. Should be put in the profile like anything else, giving you options on the site, imo.Last modified on 2022-09-11 at 14:58
#2905 by Ezezin
2022-09-11 at 14:54
< report >VNDB Suggestions! is the thread you are looking for. This is for tags suggestions/fixes.Last modified on 2022-09-11 at 14:55
#2906 by usagi
2022-09-11 at 14:58
< report >@2903
Isn't "Bonus Episodes" used for extra side stories in general, while the unlockable one is... well, unlockable?
Bonus episodes are, in mot cases, are unlockable as well - hence the word "bonus" i.e. reward for something player did. And even if not - whether episodes unlockable is not what user of such tag would care about.Last modified on 2022-09-11 at 14:59
#2907 by hansfranz77
2022-09-11 at 14:58
< report >#2905 Oh sorry, my bad -.-
#2908 by jacopo
2022-09-20 at 12:55
< report >I feel like Other Elements could use a bit of a cleanup.

In my mind, Apocalypse, Epidemic, Biological Weapon, Natural Disaster, Societal Collapse, Terrorism, (and Man-made Accident) could all fit under a parent tag "Destructive Incident" or something.

This "Destructive Incident" tag would then also be better suited as a child of Drama rather than Other Elements.
#2909 by usagi
2022-09-22 at 01:46
< report >In my new tag Diary I forgot to add an alias Journal.

P.S.: also, I don't have a strong opinion on whether Diary can be combined with Epistolary Storytelling - or they should be mutually exclusive. I mean games like The Life and Suffering of Sir Brante could have both these tags in theory since they are quite different - or Diary can be focused on being more "extra bonus feature" mechanic rather than just be there in one way or another - and consequently it shouldn't be there and it should be only in vns where a diary existence is similar to Built-in Encyclopedia - i.e. being just special optional menu. Current variant I submitted is the latter - but feel free to change it to more wide interpretion if you want.Last modified on 2022-09-23 at 04:12
#2910 by catboy
2022-09-24 at 20:53
< report >Is there a reason that Trap Heroine is "Heroine" and not "Hero"?

The only reason I can think is for spoilers, but we now have the "lie" option that can help prevent confusion. For example, "Painter Heroine" could be tagged as a lie if there's a painter trap, and "Painter Hero" can be applied as a "real" trait - and the spoiler section could help with these.

Looking at Reverse Trap Heroine, it should be "Reverse Trap Hero" with this logic. I think it's best that "Trap Heroine" is renamed as "Trap Hero".Last modified on 2022-09-24 at 20:53
#2911 by beliar
2022-09-27 at 21:03
< report >
Bonus Episodes and Unlockable Side Stories - one of those two tags is redundant. They are basically the same tag. They should be merged into one, I suppose.
I have currently reworked the tags a bit, but if you guys think so, they can be merged. I certainly agree that there is very little practical difference and that most of the cases of Bonus Episodes will be unlockable, so merging sounds right to me.

@catboy: No. Trap heroines are given primarily feminine traits and treated mostly like girls in visual novels. Ironically, as Reverse Trap Heroines are also treated as girls, both those tags historically are called "heroine" and not "hero". There is no reason to change that.
#2912 by catboy
2022-09-27 at 23:46
< report >It just doesn't make sense to keep it like that.

If a "trap" character isn't treated as a girl, what are we meant to use? What if they're just a crossdresser? How about BL games, where there aren't any heroines but we still need to use that trait?

It should be Trap Hero.

And tag names can be changed, it doesn't matter if it's "historical" or not?Last modified on 2022-09-27 at 23:47
#2913 by voidheart
2022-09-28 at 08:45
< report >#2912 eh, it sounds about right. I mean if the character is rather feminised in some aspect for a reason despite being a boy/guy/man, why call it a "Trap Hero"?
#2914 by butterflygrrl
2022-09-28 at 16:24
< report >>Looking at Reverse Trap Heroine, it should be "Reverse Trap Hero" with this logic.

I think this happens because most characters tagged as reverse traps are still meant to act a 'heroine' role in the game (that is, to be perceived as feminine and pursued by a male protagonist). They're not usually meant to be seen as 'basically a guy', just as a girl who happens to dress in a more masculine manner. Or sometimes a girl whose gender is a surprise, but once uncovered will 'revert' to acting feminine (and cry all over the protagonist about it).

Add 'female protagonist' to 'reverse trap heroine' and see how drastically the number of listed VNs drops. These characters are clearly not being written to play a hero role. They are not kinky options in otome games. There is not a SINGLE GAME tagged as 'otome game' and 'reverse trap heroine'.

And in many cases, the entire reason they're being described as "reverse trap" characters is that they wear pants. Not because they actually pass as masculine in the slightest, the breasts are often still visibly outlined, it's just that they're in shocking violation of the schoolgirl dress code.

The character type really is not the opposite of a trap heroine.

>How about BL games, where there aren't any heroines but we still need to use that trait?

Honestly I'd be fine with dropping the hero/heroine distinction entirely and folding ALL of those tags into just 'love interest'. It would also save all the awkwardness of situations where people have thought to add an occuptation tag for one gender but not the other, or for cases where a character doesn't have a clear gender anyway. But that's a pretty big change to make.Last modified on 2022-09-28 at 16:27
#2915 by Ileca
2022-09-28 at 19:52
< report >That's not going to happen because shuffling male and female characters together goes against the purpose of searching. Most men don't want to find otomege and BL while searching for some character tag. You have to be able to discriminate by gender.

I agree about "reverse trap" being a ridiculous tag. Otokonoko are not defined by crossdressing. It's purely about appearance and most of those characters don't look like men at all (or every female character should be marked as "reverse trap").

Oh. Look at that:
Cross-dressing > Trap Heroine
"Cross-dressing is not required while often being the source of the confusion."
Well, if you make the trait a child of crossdressing, crossdressing becomes a requirement. Here is your source of confusion (and also wrong results when searching for crossdressing)
#2916 by catboy
2022-09-28 at 20:56
< report >>I think this happens because most characters tagged as reverse traps are still meant to act a 'heroine' role in the game (that is, to be perceived as feminine and pursued by a male protagonist). They're not usually meant to be seen as 'basically a guy', just as a girl who happens to dress in a more masculine manner. Or sometimes a girl whose gender is a surprise, but once uncovered will 'revert' to acting feminine (and cry all over the protagonist about it).

I'd argue most people specifically looking for traps want to see a dick? And now that we have the "lie" and "spoiler" options available...

I'd say "what if we separate crossdresser hero and trap heroine," but that's annoying. If people want to see a dick, it should be "Trap Hero," should it not? Is this some weird "are traps gay" argument?

>And in many cases, the entire reason they're being described as "reverse trap" characters is that they wear pants. Not because they actually pass as masculine in the slightest, the breasts are often still visibly outlined, it's just that they're in shocking violation of the schoolgirl dress code.

Yeah... a lot of people mistag this one. I'm guessing it was made for bifauxnen characters, but people got confused.

>eh, it sounds about right. I mean if the character is rather feminised in some aspect for a reason despite being a boy/guy/man, why call it a "Trap Hero"?
Because it's still a "hero" and not a heroine?Last modified on 2022-09-28 at 20:58
#2917 by usagi
2022-09-28 at 21:32
< report >Hm, maybe Sandbox should be made into parent tag for Dating Simulation or Raising Simulation instead of excluding them. Datesims are definitely sandbox-type games as well. It's seems to me more about type of game's design rather than about plot details.

Also, maybe Sandbox should be moved outside of Simulation Game - after some thought it seems to me even more global technical type of tag (closer to adv/nvl dividing) not necessarily tied with simulation genre - but deliniating subgenre with very particular approach to gameplay's design. With the last I am not that sure though - unless I could find an example of a sandbox-type game which is definitely can't be called simulation of any sort. Rather foggy simulation's definition is not going to help here as well.

P.S.: Sandbox can't be called as Simulation Game alias too since there are quite different simulations such as sport simulations for example - which has nothing to do with sandbox-type gameplay.Last modified on 2022-09-28 at 21:40
#2918 by beliar
2022-09-28 at 21:35
< report >
I'd argue most people specifically looking for traps want to see a dick?
Lol no. You are completely missing the point why those characters are popular. If people wanted to see a dick they would play gay or bara games.

There is a reason why many traps not only can get pregnant, but they are treated as their own separate gender in-universe is some VNs. No one ever treats Traps as "heroes", so you can stop asking for the change - it's not happening.

@Usagi: I think Sandboxes do fall under the Simulation game genre, though I probably agree that they can also include the elements of a Dating/Raising Sim. Many of those gameplay genres share characteristics, and there is no clear line separating them.Last modified on 2022-09-28 at 21:37
#2919 by usagi
2022-09-28 at 21:48
< report >
I think Sandboxes do fall under the Simulation game genre, though I probably agree that they can also include the elements of a Dating/Raising Sim. Many of those gameplay genres share characteristics, and there is no clear line separating them.
That's the idea, yes. Then any Dating Simulation should be also considered as Sandbox - which can be achieved by making sandbox as parent tag. Whereas sandboxes without particular focus on training protagonist (datesims) or character (raising sims) should be just more general category - at least it's seems more logical to me. Well, unless there are examples of datesims/raising sims without sandbox gameplay -- which I've never met, tbh. I classified The Life and Suffering of Sir Brante (which is not a sandbox) as raising sim though - but many people are not agree with me judging by voting.. so, I am not that sure here.

P.S.: if it's decided to keep it as it is now - I would suggest to change guideline in datesim definition from "Do not use this tag if none of the stats involve a romantic/dating element; use Simulation Game instead." to "Do not use this tag if none of the stats involve a romantic/dating element; use Simulation Game or Sandbox instead."Last modified on 2022-09-28 at 22:00
#2920 by catboy
2022-09-28 at 22:27
< report >
There is a reason why many traps not only can get pregnant, but they are treated as their own separate gender in-universe is some VNs. No one ever treats Traps as "heroes", so you can stop asking for the change - it's not happening.

So, can we maybe separate the crossdresser hero tag then? For games where that isn't the case...Last modified on 2022-09-28 at 22:27
#2921 by Ezezin
2022-09-29 at 06:07
< report >Not sure I like the idea of Sandbox being a parent or child tag of Dating Simulation. While I agree that there might be very few Dating Simulation that aren't sandboxes (even less as VN hybrids), I kind of want to keep them separated in case there is an entry that is actually pure date sim; and if there isn't, that doesn't mean that there couldn't be a VN hybrid in the future which is a date sim without the time management aspect or the walking trough a map.Last modified on 2022-09-29 at 09:24
#2922 by usagi
2022-09-29 at 17:11
< report >@Ezezin: ok, point taken.Last modified on 2022-09-29 at 17:12
#2923 by usagi
2022-09-29 at 20:19
< report >What is the difference between Unlockable Routes and Enforced Playing Order? As I understand it - vns such as Ever17 -the out of infinity- should have Unlockable Routes tag whereas vns such as Fate/stay night should have Enforced Playing Order. However in reality we have both those tag used simultaneously or mistagging Unlockable Routes vns as Enforced Playing Order vns (see Ever17) due to confusing description. I suggest to change description of Enforced Playing Order tag to make it less copy of Unlockable Routes - i.e. make it clear that there shouldn't be ANY routes - order of which you can choose.

@beliar
I have currently reworked the tags a bit, but if you guys think so, they can be merged. I certainly agree that there is very little practical difference and that most of the cases of Bonus Episodes will be unlockable, so merging sounds right to me.
Since I suggested it in first place - my vote is for merging.Last modified on 2022-09-29 at 20:23
#2924 by Mrkew
2022-09-29 at 21:14
< report >
I suggest to change description of Enforced Playing Order tag to make it less copy of Unlockable Routes - i.e. make it clear that there shouldn't be ANY routes - order of which you can choose.
What about VNs which have the first route enforced and then you can choose between all the other routes?
#2925 by usagi
2022-09-30 at 01:02
< report >@Mrkew
What about VNs which have the first route enforced and then you can choose between all the other routes?
It's the same Unlockable Routes. Only there are multiple routes unlocked at once. In a sense you could apply the same logic to all vns with common route. You can't say all of them are Enforced Playing Order only because common route always should be played first, can you? With that said my point is about something else - that Unlockable Routes indisputably implies certain mandatory playing order ALREADY. You can't unlock something without doing something before, right? If so - then why creating two exactly same tags with different names? The only case when such tags could have each their own meaning - it's when one of them implies full absence of any freedom of choice in relation to ALL routes order.Last modified on 2022-09-30 at 01:06