Tags suggestions/fixes

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#2926 by Mrkew
2022-09-30 at 01:15
< report >Why the hell are you bringing up common route when it's obviously about reaching an ending before other routes are accessible? There's a big difference between these 4:
1. The first route's enforced, remaining routes are then available in any order
2. The entire route order is enforced
3. All the main routes are available from the start, but you need to finish at least 1 of them to unlock the sub heroine route(s)
4. The true route is not available until you finish all the other routes

There's less difference between 1 and 2, which I'd say are enforced playing order and then 3/4 are unlockable routes.
#2927 by voidheart
2022-09-30 at 11:29
< report >
So, can we maybe separate the crossdresser hero tag then? For games where that isn't the case...
...I don't see any reason for admins to make a separated tag for crossdressing hero, like... Cross-dressing this is more than enough. This tag is also universally used, both for protagonist and heros/heroines

EDIT: apparently the databes used to have Cross-dresser Hero though it has been deleted, possibly due to redundancyLast modified on 2022-10-01 at 00:10
#2928 by rastagong
2022-10-01 at 11:33
< report >Hi! Suggesting an additional Game Jam sub-tag: "Spooktober Game Jam", which is an annual Halloween-themed game jam run by the DevTalk VN development community. The 4th edition just ended with about 150 entries (to be updated depending on who gets qualified), which is very close to NaNoRenO's all-time record of 185 entries this year (source). It'd be nice to add this tag given the size and prominence this VN jam has reached!

We already have a good number of previous years' entries on the site: Stillwater, Therapy with Dr. Albert Krueger, Last Meal at Cafe Mori, Night of the Lesbian Vampires, Stardander Revenant, Who is the Red Queen?, fishy, etc, etc (to many to list). I've seen a few of this year's entries start being added too. There'd be an immediate benefit in being able to start tagging them all soon.
#2929 by Ezezin
2022-10-01 at 15:00
< report >While I agree a lot of entries will benefit from having more specific Jam tags, I don't think there are going to be any more than what we currently have (Horror Game Jam).
Well, I'm slightly biased in favor of more game jam tags; I like those types of games :D
#2930 by flowerno9
2022-10-01 at 15:55
< report >Shouldn't Social Networking Service be a child trait of Internet?
#2931 by rastagong
2022-10-01 at 19:12
< report >#2929 Ah, wasn't aware of this precedent, thanks!

I hope this can be reconsidered! I understand that too many discrete tags can backfire, but as I explained, Spooktober has cemented into one of the main annual VN jams at this point (in both number of entries and overall online presence), mainly due to the competitive nature and to the Halloween/horror theme. There'd be no lack of entries to file under the tag, even with just the 4 editions it has run through its course so far.
#2932 by usagi
2022-10-02 at 18:48
< report >Probably my new Diary tag should be renamed to Built-in Diary/Built-in Journal - to stress that it's more technical tag than tag about some diary in the story.Last modified on 2022-10-02 at 18:49
#2933 by caffeinecrisis
2022-10-03 at 02:02
< report >Do we have a "Questioning" tag for a character questioning their gender and if not, can we get one? If it does exist, where do I find it? It's not under "Transgender" which is where I would've expected it to be...
#2934 by Ileca
2022-10-03 at 02:06
< report >LGBTQ Issues
#2935 by catboy
2022-10-03 at 04:24
< report >#2927
...I don't see any reason for admins to make a separated tag for crossdressing hero, like... Cross-dressing this is more than enough. This tag is also universally used, both for protagonist and heros/heroines

For cross-dressing heroes specifically. Not "traps" (which should still be changed to hero by the way) but heroes who crossdress. If people are so intent on keeping that as heroine for some reason (usually over erotic VNs), we should have a normal crossdressing tag as well.
#2936 by voidheart
2022-10-03 at 14:22
< report >#2935 I actually did edit my message at the time I replied and they used to have that specific tag but... it's deleted. Eh...
#2937 by caffeinecrisis
2022-10-04 at 03:00
< report >#2934 Thanks Lleca, however I need to be able to add this tag to a character as a trait and I don't seem to be able to do that with this one? The character in question is Toujou Minato from Sekai Metsubou Kyouyuu Gensou "Mamiya" Series and currently they have the Non-binary tag which is incorrect and was added by way of there not seeming to be a better option.

The character in question does not explicitly identify as anything in particular over the course of the story, but does have a lot of various feelings on the matter of their gender identity.

Apologies for not clarifying that I meant a trait for a character and not just a general tag.


ETA: Disregard, I am illiterate and in the entirely wrong thread apparently!Last modified on 2022-10-04 at 04:47
#2938 by catboy
2022-10-04 at 03:31
< report >#2937

Funny, that SAME character is the reason I tried to get this trait added: Subject of > Gender Dysphoria.

This should probably be under t3314.Last modified on 2022-10-04 at 03:32
#2939 by caffeinecrisis
2022-10-04 at 04:43
< report >Oh yes okay I missed that thread. Thanks for pointing me that way, Catboy!
#2940 by kei-tr
2022-10-07 at 19:34
< report >This actually might be one of the biggest problems in the tagging system (at least for some people).

Tags like Avoidable Rape and Avoidable Netorare are unhelpful and uninformative at best subject to incorrect tagging and misleading at worst.

For example, here is Newuser-kun, he sees a vn he likes and checks out its tags. There is Avoidable Rape amongst tags, so he thinks he can read that vn without seeing any rape scenes. But alas the tag applies even if only one of those rape scenes is avoidable and many others are unavoidable. Thus, poor Newuser-kun who is invested in vn and enjoying it until a certain point gets traumatized for life. Poor Newuser-kun. The end.

Even in the best-case scenario, they are unhelpful and uninformative. Avoidable sure, but all of them are avoidable and vn is mistagged or only some of them are avoidable? Even if vn is correctly tagged tag has no value at all. Unlike very helpful "only avoidable" tags which indicates that you can avoid all undesired content to get all good endings and helpful "unavoidable" tags which indicates you have to see undesired content at least in one of the routes "avoidable" tags may indicate anything. Undesired content may or may not be completely avoidable. For example, a heroine in vn has 5 rape h-scenes in her route but only 4 of these are avoidable. So, even though the tag is applicable heroine gets raped in this route, in the end, no matter what you do. Even if that heroine's route is safe and unavoidable rape scenes are in other routes, you can't possibly know beforehand what Avoidable Rape tag is for there and have to inspect vn thoroughly or make a thread about it and risk getting spoiled in the process. Whare I am getting is a combination of Only Avoidable Rape Scenes and Unavoidable Rape (and most of other "only" and "unavoidable" tag combinations) should cover any situation so we don't need Avoidable Rape tag.

Their definition is too broad, to begin with. This is the case even with the Unavoidable Rape tag. Sure, you have to see rape scenes if you want to see all of the good endings, so at least in that regard more informative than Avoidable Rape but its definition is still too broad. You might be okay if rape scenes involve only side characters but not the heroines or you might be okay if rape is only done by the protagonist. But these tags aren't informative enough at all. Thus they are really unhelpful. Even more in the case of Sex with Others tag. Actually, they are unhelpful even for people seeking this kind of content. Let's say you want to read a vn with heroines getting raped by someone other than the protagonist. But Unavoidable Rape or even unavoidable heroine rape tag is not helpful enough here (you need "unavoidable heroine rape by others" tag).

I don't know if these tags have any real uses beyond their child tags. I mean, situations that their child tags can't describe so you have to use these parent tags. Well, even if there are that just means we don't have enough child tags. If there is still some use remains for them that I can't see please consider if these uses outweigh the things I stated above.

I suggest they should be made non-applicable. It will also help to decrease countless threads asking about rape, netorare etc. as well.Last modified on 2022-10-07 at 19:38
#2941 by barfboy
2022-10-08 at 01:57
< report >I wanted to add King Game (the one you see kids play a lot in anime) to the database and discovered there is no tag for gaming as a story element and not as a gameplay device for the player. Since the term "Gaming" is already taken for computer gaming I created a "Traditional Games" tag. This can perhaps be used as an umbrella for other games which can be added as child traits for all those times you watch characters play chess, poker, or whatever.
#2942 by kei-tr
2022-10-09 at 14:57
< report >Mods, I would appreciate it if you don't ignore a relatively serious issue (#2940) this time, if possible. Thank you.

Yorhel, maybe it's not my place to say this but your tagmods (warfoki and skorpiondeath) seem to be dead for some time now and other mods don't seem to be most enthusiastic about this extra responsibility of managing tags and traits (according to about us page they aren't tagmods and there are no other tagmods at the moment) so maybe its time to look for new tagmods.Last modified on 2022-10-09 at 15:03
#2943 by beliar
2022-10-09 at 21:51
< report >Really not sure what you are speaking about. As far as I can see you are just reaching for the straws while throwing around the words "avoidable", "unavoidable" around like they are confetti. Both Rape and Netorare have child tags that are pretty informative. As you have noticed, you can search for things like Only Avoidable Heroine Rape. What I got from your post, is you want to create child tags for every little minor combination, thus inflating the tag pool with tags very few people will ever bother adding, thus severely decreasing the searchability of such VNs.

As for making the parent tags inapplicable, no. First of all, like I have mentioned, very few people will ever bother with such minute information, and will not add tags at all, if they cannot choose the most generic tag. Moreover, many people tag VNs from galleries on various sites, thus don't know context. If they see a CG with a heroine being raped by someone who is not a protagonist, they will just add Heroine Rape by Others, and won't bother with the details, like if it is Avoidable, Unavoidable, or something else.

What you are proposing is restricting the flow of information, which runs counter to the purpose of the db. If people want to do meta research before diving into a VN, they should really open themselves to the possibility of being spoiled. Adding ten thousand additional tags, and restricting the parent tags would benefit a very small minority of people, while shafting everyone else.
#2944 by kei-tr
2022-10-10 at 13:40
< report >My post was about tags with "avoidable" and "unavoidable" in their names so excessive use of those words was... unavoidable. Apologies for that.

What I got from your post, is you want to create child tags for every little minor combination, thus inflating the tag pool with tags very few people will ever bother adding, thus severely decreasing the searchability of such VNs.

Not necessarily. Child tags seem to be mostly ok at the moment.

Ok, let's try to be more concise.

1) Avoidable Rape (and some of the others I mentioned above) is not helpful because the tag applies even if only one of rape scenes is avoidable. "Only Avoidable Rape Scenes" or "Unavoidable Rape" should be enough for everything. What's the point of tag if some rape scenes may or may not be avoidable? (Note: Though instead of tag being ambiguous if you define this tag in a way that describes some content neither of tags covers that's another story.)

First of all, like I have mentioned, very few people will ever bother with such minute information

2) Are you really sure? Is it that rare to not care about side characters and only care about heroines? But if vn is tagged with unavoidable rape instead of unavoidable heroine rape just because tagging person didn't know about child tags or didn't bother enough to do more research about vn before tagging I can't get the info I want. You are talking about restricting the flow of information but this just restricts the flow of information in a different way. But if these parent tags are made inapplicable they (taggers) will either don't bother tagging anymore (which, parent tags are not helpful anyway so no loss here) or they will be forced to look for child tags.

You are ok with vn tagged even with the broadest of tags like Rape or Sex with Others and not caring about if it's helpful or informative for readers tagging a vn with just that. It's okay as long as it's "correctly" tagged.Last modified on 2022-10-10 at 14:23
#2945 by beliar
2022-10-10 at 14:52
< report >
Avoidable Rape (and some of the others I mentioned above) is not helpful because the tag applies even if only one of rape scenes is avoidable. "Only Avoidable Rape Scenes" or "Unavoidable Rape" should be enough for everything.
I mean, I don't disagree with you that the tag has little actual value, as the child tags do a better job here, however I think it can be useful, if say one heroine route has rape scenes that can be avoided, but another heroine has unavoidable rape scenes. None of the children fit in such a situation, while a generic tag can be of interest to someone to see that some of the content can be avoided.

But if vn is tagged with unavoidable rape instead of unavoidable heroine rape just because tagging person didn't know about child tags or didn't bother enough to do more research about vn before tagging I can't get the info I want.
While I understand why you are frustrated, many taggers don't do any research and use the generic tags. I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing. One person might not do any research and tag the VN with say Rape by Others. Another person might recognize that a person being raped is a heroine, and add Heroine Rape by Others to that. Than a knowledgeable guy might come and finally add Unavoidable Heroine Rape by Others to the mix. The more people play the game, the more tiers of information can be added to the game. You want us to restrict the first tier for some tags, just because it makes searching difficult for a very minor pool of people. However, if you restrict the parent tags, you might wait for a very long time until someone does any information and adds the higher tier tags. In my opinion, in this case some information is definitely better than none.
#2946 by kei-tr
2022-10-10 at 15:48
< report >
however I think it can be useful, if say one heroine route has rape scenes that can be avoided, but another heroine has unavoidable rape scenes.

Uuuh... I might be really dumb here but how is that any different than Unavoidable Heroine Rape tag? Tag is defined as at least one of heroines having unavoidable rape scenes in her best ending which is no different from your definition (it's not like tag named as "Only Unavoidable Heroine Rape" and all rape scenes are unavoidable). Unavoidable Heroine Rape tag covers what you said while Avoidable Rape will probably be misleading.

One person might not do any research and tag the VN with say Rape by Others. Another person might recognize that a person being raped is a heroine, and add Heroine Rape by Others to that. Than a knowledgeable guy might come and finally add Unavoidable Heroine Rape by Others to the mix.

Then in the case of a vn tagged with all those three how will I know which one of the tags is true?

just because it makes searching difficult for a very minor pool of people.

I still don't think these people are that much of a minority as you say but whatever.Last modified on 2022-10-10 at 15:59
#2947 by beliar
2022-10-10 at 16:10
< report >
Uuuh... I might be really dumb here but how is that any different than Unavoidable Heroine Rape tag?
Okay, you are right. We have so many of those similar child tags, that I sometimes get lost among them. Avoidable Rape does look pretty redundant as an applicable tag, but I'm not that comfortable making it unapplicable without input from other users. Maybe there is some other use I'm missing.

Then in the case of a vn tagged with all those three how will I know which one of the tags is true?
Tagging system is inherently flawed, in that it cannot provide cannot provide precise descriptions of "who", "when" and "where" fucked somebody. At the end of the day, they are supposed to give you a rough idea about some of the constant a game has. If you want to get more precise, you have to read the character traits, or make a thread and ask those that have read the game. As I have said, if you want precision, you inevitably open yourself up for spoilers.
#2948 by kei-tr
2022-10-10 at 21:33
< report >Normally I would drop the subject here but if I do that I feel like it will be swept under the rug forever. I don't want that. I also see you are reluctant to make a tag inapplicable even though its redundancy is pretty much proven. But if you are that reluctant to make them inapplicable then what about giving these tags some actual value, some actual use, some actual content these tags can define by changing their definition? No, I won't really be the one defining them. No need for that because one of you already did. I did a bit of research and saw this post by tagmod himself. I urge you to check out how he defines and differentiates these tags.

But I can't for the life of me think about the reason why these definitions made by tagmod himself are not applied to the tags.

Anyway, I think this definition can be applied to other tags as well. I tried to define them by taking Warfoki's definition as a basis, here:

Unavoidable Death of Heroine/Hero: At least one of the heroines will die on her own route leading to her good ending.
Avoidable Death of Heroine/Hero: At least one of the heroines can die on her own route. This is avoidable on her own route. But at least one of the other heroines dies while you are in that heroine's route.
Only Avoidable Death of Heroine/Hero: At least one of the heroines can die during the story of this visual novel. However, none of the heroine deaths are unavoidable, both on their own routes and at other routes.

Unavoidable Rape: At least one of the characters gets raped in this visual novel and this can't be avoided. (current definition can be left as is but I redefined it for sake of consistency)
Avoidable Rape: At least one of the characters can get raped in this visual novel. This can be avoided by making the right choices or succeeding in gameplay stages. But at least one of the other characters gets raped in the process.
Only Avoidable Rape Scenes: At least one of the characters can get raped during the story of this visual novel. However, none of these rape scenes are unavoidable. (current definition can be left as is but I redefined it for sake of consistency)

Unavoidable Netorare: At least one of the heroines will get stolen from the protagonist on her own route leading to her good ending. The scenes where you can choose not to witness the NTR events, but they still happen behind the scenes, should still count as unavoidable. (current definition can be left as is but I redefined it for sake of consistency)
Avoidable Netorare*: At least one of the heroines can get stolen from the protagonist on her own route. This is avoidable on her own route. But at least one of the other heroines gets stolen while you are in that heroine's route. The scenes where you can choose not to witness the NTR events, but they still happen behind the scenes, should not be counted as avoidable.
Only Avoidable Netorare: At least one of the heroines can get stolen from the protagonist during the story of this visual novel. However, none of these are unavoidable, both on their own routes and at other routes. You can play from beginning to end without witnessing any such acts. Usually, they are in their own routes or are in separate bad ends. The scenes where you can choose not to witness the NTR events, but they still happen behind the scenes, should not be counted as avoidable. (current definition can be left as is but I redefined it for sake of consistency)

Edit: It looks like I changed definitions of all of the tags above but actually I only changed definitions of "Avoidable" tags, others are fundamentally same. I did this to make them more distinguishable from each other.

*: This one is a bit weird. It will probably not see much use as other avoidable tags after it gets changed (though anything better than its current state). Because NTR requires jealousy from the protagonist to be applied but I don't think many protagonists will give a crap about some other heroine getting NTR'ed (some readers still will care though, so if that's enough to apply the tag it will still get a lot of use). But that doesn't mean there aren't any protagonists like that, I am sure you can find some Nukiges revolving around a family with this content. Though you can always take the middle ground and apply the changes to the other two groups and make Avoidable Netorare inapplicable.

Anyway, you can fine-tune these definitions as you see fit.

That's it from me. So, you have three choices here. You can make avoidable tags (middle ones) inapplicable. You can apply these definitions. Or you can take the easy way out and ignore this problem, sweep it under the rug because we are usually hesitant when it comes to changes, especially when it comes from a random user like me (not that it really came from me, it came from a tagmod) even if it's certain there is a problem with the current situation.Last modified on 2022-10-10 at 22:48
#2949 by beliar
2022-10-11 at 20:21
< report >While I'm thankful that you took your time to redefine some tags, and make others more consistent, I'm afraid that those Avoidable tags can be pretty counterintuitive, and at this point I'm leaning towards making them unapplicable. However, I would like some input from the other users regarding that. I'll give a few days, and if no one comments which solution would be better I'll decide by myself.

Of course that doesn't apply to Avoidable Netorare, as by the very definition it's not netorare, if you get on a certain heroine's route, and some other potential heroine you didn't go for, gets taken. That's a different tag altogether: Heroine Having Sex with Others. That leads me to firmly believe that Avoidable Netorare will have to be made Unapplicable, as you are correct that it's probably completely useless to keep it applicable.
#2950 by Ezezin
2022-10-12 at 00:12
< report >The avoidable/unavoidable tags were always a headache to me. In some cases, it's hard to easily figure out which of those tags should be used and which ones not.

For example: We have Heroine A with her Route A and Heroine B with her Route B. I'm going to use tags based on current descriptions.

First game:
Heroine A dies on bad endings from Route A. She doesn't die at all in Route B.
Heroine B dies on bad endings from Route B. She always dies on route A.
Route B good ending is the true ending.
We use Only Bad End Death of Heroine and Avoidable Death of Heroine, explaining in notes why the parent tag is used with its child tag.

Second game:
Heroine A now learns how to use a handgun. She doesn't die on any routes. Route A is her own route.
Heroine B dies at the end of Route B (her own route). She also dies on several bad endings from Route A (while not her route, she is important for the plot, so when she dies: game over).
We use Avoidable Death of Heroine and Unavoidable Death of Heroine.

The point I want to make is that the avoidable/unavoidable tags are not useful when used on a VN as a whole, since those are inherent traits of how the different routes are made and what roles does a character have.
It would be much more useful if we can say "Route A has only bad end death of one of the heroines while another heroine has an unavoidable death in it" or "Heroine A dies on bad endings only while Heroine B dies on bad endings and on another route that's not her own" rather than "this VN has some Avoidable Death of Heroine scenes".

My very personal and unpopular suggestion that no one will like is keep the tags unchanged, maybe change the descriptions a little so they can be more clear but without adjusting their use, and use character traits for the specifics. Doing anything more than this and we risk the already tagged entries to be misstagged very easily and future uses hard to fix (no one reads the tags), as trying to include route definitions and restrictions on their use will change them completely.
Later, when the hero/heroine information are added in characters' entries, remove every specific avoidable/unavoidable tags. Or delete every hero/heroine tags while we are at it. I never liked any those tags very much.

Another thing to keep in mind, while with the current tags you can't know which routes/how the hero(ine) dies/get raped, they are easy to use and not very confusing.
If we force users to use the more specific tags while creating some restrictions on their uses, you might get more information regarding on what is avoidable or not, but there might be a situation were users might get confused by the so many avoidable/unavoidable tags that they will choose the closest one they understand, instead of the correct one.
The avoidable tags might be redundant, but that doesn't mean they are not useful.

No comments about Avoidable Netorare.

Edit: Basically, I suggest to not make big changes, except maybe tinkering some descriptions a bit. Maybe in the far future create some of those specifics tags as traits, as I believe they would be more useful for characters than VNs.Last modified on 2022-10-12 at 03:10