Tags suggestions/fixes

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#851 by germanvn
2016-05-04 at 20:59
False Thread. Please ignore.Last modified on 2016-05-04 at 21:05
#852 by hko2006
2016-05-05 at 03:33
link
Added another new tag, thought it would be auto-linked to Venus Blood -Abyss-, please fix, thanks!
#853 by warfoki
2016-05-05 at 03:43
It only autolinks after the tag is approved. And that won't happen since that's one awfully vague tag.
#854 by hko2006
2016-05-05 at 10:53
#853
It has be to somewhat vague as different games have different mechanics. e.g. Venus Blood -Abyss- let you disable randomness when creating minions, RAI7 let you disable espionage. Even though it does not really tell the characteristic/content of the game, it does tells players that there is this bit of extra customization.

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Simulation Game
Aliases
SMI <-typo of SIM I guess
Please also add SLG as aliases

=======

I have also added several other tags
Difficulty Settings
'The game allows players to choose what difficulty levels to play at. It is usually at the start of a new game or after a defeat.'
Originally under Gameplay setting, as the parent tag is gone, I think it should now be under Design.

Real Time with Pause
'The game allows player to pause the game.'
Maybe too board for child tag of RTS game (games other than RTS elements may let players to pause too). I made the tag with a VN with RTS Makenshi Leane in mind so I made it under RTS. May change it to 'This visual novel allows player to pause during RTS gameplay.'

Shopkeeper Heroine
A heroine of this game is a Shopkeeper.

No Music Recollection
'The game does not have music replaying mode.'
The category was wrongly picked, should be technical, under parent tag design.

Music Recollection
'The game has a music replay mode.'
Not sure if I have put it under parent tag design.

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The following tags are suggestions, not yet added.

Game Modes/More Than One Game Mode
'The game features more than one game mode. It is usually in form of free mode, challenge mode apart from story mode.'
Originally under Gameplay setting, now should under design I think

e.g. Minna Daisuki Kozukuri Banchou the Global mode and Arcade mode
Sengoku Rance free mode after story mode
IRRC Haru Urare -Kounai Akasen Kuiki- has free mode too

Might as well name it Unlockable Game Mode but this would exclude Minna Daisuki Kozukuri Banchou.

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Sabotage
Currently there is Espionage, but it is a theme than a Gameplay Elements. Makenshi Leane and RAI7 have options of sabotaging enemy force/holding. IRRC Sengoku Rance has them too. Sengoku Rance also lets player spy to see enemy force compositions so it can be a gameplay version of Espionage too.

(optional) alises
Covert operation/covert action. Not entire same as sabotage (which tend to be more military focus) but close enough.

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Optional Netorare
Also under Gameplay setting. e.g. RAI7, NTR can be turned off in option menu (player can still do it).

See also, other Netorare tags
Avoidable Netorare
Only Avoidable Netorare ScenesLast modified on 2016-05-05 at 14:41
#855 by dk382
2016-05-06 at 03:30
A couple recent threads have made me aware of two issues, one very minor, one kind of major.

1) Fictional Modern Day Japanese Countryside should probably be a child tag of Countryside

2) Late Branching Plot is being incorrectly applied to a lot of games by a large number of people, making it impossible to reverse the mistakes. It has been getting misapplied for years now. Basically, people have been using it to describe a lot of the games with long common routes, which may have been fine before, but since a year or two ago, we have Long Common Route. A good amount of the games being tagged with Late Branching Plot have a branch point that comes much sooner than the suggested 90% point in its tag description. Some of the incorrectly-tagged games I'm spotting at a glance:
Hoshizora no Memoria -Wish upon a Shooting Star-
Kira☆Kira
Deardrops
D.C. ~Da Capo~
Otome wa Boku ni Koishiteru
Daitoshokan no Hitsujikai
Otome wa Boku ni Koishiteru ~Futari no Elder~
Fortune Arterial
Ao no Kanata no Four Rhythm

All of these have decently meaty heroine routes beyond the branch point, that usually comprise 30-50% of the read time in a single complete playthrough. (as opposed to the 10% the tag description says they should comprise). There are quite a few more I suspect are incorrectly tagged but I don't know for sure. What do we typically do in these situations? I know warfoki has traditionally been very reluctant to do vote overrides but I don't think me downvoting the relevant games is going to make much of a dent.Last modified on 2016-05-06 at 03:36
#856 by warfoki
2016-05-06 at 04:29
I'm not reluctant to do overrides, I just find it inefficient. If it has been misapplied so many times, then the tags are not clear enough, so people will keep misusing it. As such I usually prefer to go to the root of the problem.
#857 by takata
2016-05-06 at 13:32
@warfoki: Please see a few things below.

@#844,848,850 hex,minah: That tag needs a more self-explanatory name before it can be accepted.
@#847 savagetiger: Kissing Scene doesn't seem to fit with the tags under Romance, since those tags are all about things spanning more than just a few scenes. Changed category to Content though.
@#849 hko2006: Changed category to Technical, but I think it should be denied since music replay isn't a very common feature. <warfoki

#854 hko2006: I agree with warfoki. We need a firm idea of what a tag will and will not be used for.
Simulation Game - Removed SMI, added SLG.
Real Time with Pause - Sounds a bit too specific. It's just one feature in RTS-genre games that some people might like to have. <warfoki
Shopkeeper Heroine - I think you should just use the Shopkeeper trait. <warfoki
No Music Recollection - see above
Music Recollection - I think it should be approved. <warfoki

Other Suggestions: Please think about how useful some of these tags will be if listed on a VN's page.

#@855 dk382:
1. done, for now. I think the whole setting branch of the tag tree has been implemented wrongly though...Last modified on 2016-05-06 at 13:33
#858 by [deleted]
2016-05-06 at 13:53
@857
Id say deny it i cant come up with a better name and its probably easier to just stick with the Yaoi & trap heroine tag combination.Last modified on 2016-05-06 at 13:53
#859 by takata
2016-05-08 at 00:06
@hex, minah: How about "Trap/Male Sex" as a title for Trap?
#860 by takata
2016-05-08 at 00:52
I think we're doing the tags for settings wrongly. The point of having "tags" as opposed to "categories" is so that you can use combinations of them, as opposed to just one. So, instead of having a tag for "Fictional Modern Day Japanese Island", you could use "island", "Japan" and "Modern Day" ("Fictional" is implied).

"Setting" consists (mostly) of two parts: time and location (wiki). I'll split "location" into 2 parts: "Universe" and "Scene". "Universe" contains specific, usually large-scale locations like "Japan" or "Shibuya" or "Earth" or "Fictional Universe". "Scene" contains generic locations like "a high school" or "a town". I'll also keep "From Other Media" under "Universe", because it doesn't seem to fit anywhere else better.

Setting

>Time Period
>>Past (*1)
>>>20th Century
>>>>World War II (*2)
>>>Early Modern Period (*3)
>>>European History (meta)
>>>>Medieval Period (middle ages) (*4)

>>>Japanese History (meta) (*5)
>>>>Showa Period
>>>>Taishou Period
>>>>Meiji Period
>>>>Edo / Tokugawa
>>>>>Bakumatsu Period
>>>>Sengoku Period
>>>>Muromachi Period
>>>>Heian Period

>>>Chinese History (meta)
>>>>Three Kingdoms

>>Modern Day (*6)

>>Future
>>>Post Apocalyptic (*7)

>>Seasons (meta)

>Universe (*15)
>>Real Universe (*8, *12)
>>>Earth (*9)
>>>>Japan
>>>>>Tokyo
>>>>>>Akihabara
>>>>>>Shibuya
>>>>>Hokkaido
>>>>[other countries...]
>>>Moon (*10)
>>>Mars (*10)

>>Fictional Universe (*11, *12)
>>From Other Media

>Scene (*13)
>>School (*14)
>>Afterlife
>>Dystopia
>>Space
>>>Spaceship
>>>Space Station
>>Virtual Reality

>>[other tags currrently present...]

*1: All child-tags only valid for VNs set on Earth.
*2: Exclude VNs only set in the buildup or aftermath of WWII; use 40's or 50's tag instead for them. (Although we don't really need a tag for every decade given how little this area of the tag tree is used.)
*3: Only valid for VNs set outside Japan. Use tags under Japanese History for VNs in Japan. Approx early 16th - late 18th century. After Medieval period and before industrial revolution.
*4: Only valid for VNs set in Europe or middle east. Approx 500 - 1500 CE.
*5: All child tags only valid for VNs set in Japan. Somewhere Japan-like like Utawarerumono doesn't count (and you couldn't identify the period anyway.)

*6: I can't think of any suitable child tags relating to time. This tag will -usually- imply that the VN is set on Earth. One exception I can think of is Angel Beats, for which the setting is a perfectly modern high school, but is also explicitly not Earth.

*7: Not neccesarily Earth. Maybe exclude VNs like Ar Tonelico, where the apocalyptic event occurred so long ago that current societies are no longer feeling the effects (even if they haven't re-attained the level of technology they had prior to the event).

*8: Avoid using this tag, other than for settings like Star Trek, which I think is set in the real universe, but usually not anywhere near Earth.

*9: The following ARE permitted for VNs set on Earth:
-fictional areas in real cities/countries/continents
-fictional cities in real countries/continents
-fictional countries in real continents

*10: Don't use for lunar-like or martian-like settings, only for the actual Moon and Mars.

*11: Can't think of any child tags to go here because every fictional universe will be unpredictably different.

*12: Presume a VN is set in the real universe or Earth until it builds its world in a way that suggests otherwise. Generally ignore the addition of magic, aliens, or other fictional beings or characters to an otherwise Earth-like setting.

*13: I suggest moving a few generic things from Universe to Scene, like Space, Dystopia and Afterlife.

*14: Suggest removing anything under this tag that doesn't relate to the setting, since it's kinda messy as it is, and there are better routes to get to those tags.

*15: Suggest moving Mythical Setting somewhere else, like under Theme, because its child tags don't really relate to setting (and they probably haven't been used that way).


One last thing:
Modern Day Setting in a Fictional World - Pretty sure this has been misused at least a few times, at least for the Gyakuten Saiban/Kenji entries, since "Fictional" means "not on Earth" in this case.Last modified on 2016-05-08 at 05:54
#861 by savagetiger
2016-05-08 at 02:58
^that's all nice and neat, but damn, that's a lot to retag.

About *12, what about fantasy VN's where who knows what the map looks like to check the shape of the continents but the country/place names are all fictional?
#862 by takata
2016-05-08 at 14:57
@#861 savagetiger:
...yes it's quite a lot of scripts to run, increasing the chance of a mistake. >.<

About *12: If a VN is set in a fantasy world, with no map, and all country and place names are fictional, I think I would call that a fictional world. Even if it provided a map that appeared to come from the real world (like Pokemon's Kanto and Johto regions resembling part of Honshu), I'd still call it a fictional setting if all the place names were fictional. ...This might be open for debate in some cases... I'll list a few examples to see how this might work:

Real Universe:
-Star Trek, Harry Potter - these contain many fictional locations, but also mention real locations, which places the story in the real universe.
-Fate/stay night, To LOVE-Ru, Sono Hanabira - these contain only fictional locations (?) and may never mention real locations, but the setting closely resembles the real world, so I assume they are set in the real universe.

Fictional Universe:
-Star Wars, The Lord of the Rings, Ar Tonelico, Galaxy Angel, Monmusu Quest - these contain only fictional locations, never mention real locations, and the setting does not closely resemble the real world, so I assume they are set in a fictional universe.
-Angel Beats - the setting closely resembles modern-day Earth, but it is explicitly not Earth (and this is important to the story), so it's set in a fictional universe.

...I noticed some things:
-I find past or future settings (like Monmusu Quest or Galaxy Angel) harder to place in the real universe or on Earth. ie, it's harder to imagine that they are set in the real universe or on the real Earth. On the other hand, I find it easy to place Fate/stay night or To LOVE-Ru on Earth. The events are fictional, of course, but it still feels right to say that their _setting_ is Earth, in the real universe.
-When the setting is not explicitly the real universe or a fictional universe, I look for a hint, or cue, as to where it is set. Modern-day settings seem to provide that cue easily. Past or futuristic settings can't provide that cue, and have to be more explicit to place themselves in the real universe.
#863 by wakaranai
2016-05-08 at 15:43
i find your real/fictional classification fundamentally flawed. universe includes not only "locations", but also matter itself and its properties reflected in laws of physics. therefore universes described in works of fiction aren't real by definition if they "expand" or deny those laws (implementing magic/hyperspace/whatever).
#864 by lmtuan98
2016-05-08 at 16:51
I just wanted to point out that many vns set in another world, but the settings are mostly similar to Medieval Period on earth. In those cases, I think Medieval Period still apply
#865 by takata
2016-05-09 at 00:37
@863 wakaranai:
So... where would you say the following VNs are set? In the real world/universe, or in a fictional world/universe?

School Days, Eroge! ~H mo Game mo Kaihatsu Zanmai~, Chaos;Head, Bible Black -La Noche de Walpurgis-, Fate/Stay Night
#866 by dk382
2016-05-09 at 01:10
@863
There's an important and interesting distinction to be had when magic or similar elements occur in an otherwise real-world setting, and this is a style of fiction that people often actively seek out. Labeling something like Da Capo as having the same kind of setting as something like Aiyoku no Eustia because DC has some magic would be really unfortunate.

This distinction doesn't need to be made in the setting tags, and doing so would only serve to over-complicate the system. We already have tags for these kinds of fictional elements. If someone sees a Modern Day Japan tag as well as a Magic tag, that will appropriately set their expectations. We can save the fictional universe tag for games that are set in whole new worlds as opposed to earth but with alternate histories or magic or whatever.

So basically, I think we're okay to have setting tags that focus purely on location and time instead of the laws of the universe, since we already have other tags that adequately describe those laws. You could even call the Fictional Universe tag something like Non-Earth Setting to eliminate any ambiguity.Last modified on 2016-05-09 at 03:24
#867 by wakaranai
2016-05-09 at 09:18
to over-complicate the system
but that's exactly what takata proposes. instead of having, say [modern day japan]+[magic] like we do now, he introduces another classification of [real/fictional] based on superficial principles, and i really don't see how it would be practical.

@takata like i said, i don't agree with your definition of "universe" that take into account location only. use "fictional location" or something similar instead. all those games you linked have [moder day japan] setting with [magic/fiction] tags where applicable.
#868 by dk382
2016-05-09 at 09:47
Erm, not really? He proposes a bunch of tags for the real world, including plenty of real world locations, and then one blanket tag for fictional worlds. As long as we base that tag on location, I see no problem with this.Last modified on 2016-05-09 at 09:47
#869 by emir7
2016-05-09 at 13:29
I believe 2 tags should be marked as spoilers:

- Only bad endings
- Only good endings

I can't understand how these ones aren't even marked as minor spoilers cause they do spoil the game.
#870 by takata
2016-05-09 at 15:30
@savagetiger, wakaranai, lmtuan, dk382: Continued on t7808.

@emir:
Not sure what you're asking for... spoiler levels are done on a per-VN basis. O.o
#871 by barfboy
2016-05-09 at 17:41
There's a softcore tag. I just noticed it. You guys are so awesome. Thanks for that.

That's all. Just thanks.
#872 by [deleted]
2016-05-09 at 21:23
@869, 870 I think emir's asking for a note placed in the tag description that it should always be marked a spoiler. I'd disagree, though, and say it's general enough not to be a spoiler unless having only good or only bad endings is unexpected for the tone of the game.
#873 by emir7
2016-05-09 at 21:28
Yeah, that's exactly what I was asking for. Maybe it's different for other people, but it's a big deal to me knowing no matter what I do it will always result in a good/bad ending. Specially the "only bad endings one" as there is usually no difference in tone between "bad endings/bad endings with story" and "only bad endings" visual novels.Last modified on 2016-05-09 at 21:29
#874 by savagetiger
2016-05-10 at 02:07
^wrong, not all games with Bad Endings with Story tagged have only bad ends or a tone that is really dark or something where you would expect bad ends. You can even have just bad ends where nothing dark happens but you still don't get the guy/girl but it's more than just a quick you failed game over thing.

It's a vague tag, so it's not super spoilerish, a bad end can be anything from getting killed to just getting dumped and any kind of ridiculous failure situation in between.
And I think more people would actually rather know first if a game has only bad ends/good ends.
#875 by sullen
2016-05-15 at 10:54
Transsexual Heroine needs to be fixed. It either needs to be renamed to "Transgender Heroine" and have its definition reworked, or it needs to be used exclusively to refer to heroines who have undergone sexual reassignment surgery (if a game with such a heroine exists on this site; I'm not sure that there is one) and a separate "Transgender Heroine" tag needs to be created.

The term "transsexual", by the most accepted definition, exclusively refers to individuals who have undergone sexual reassignment surgery; "transgender", on the other hand, either refers specifically to individuals who identify with the gender considered opposite their sex but otherwise don't seek any sort of body-altering procedure (save for perhaps hormone-therapy), or is used as an umbrella term encompassing this phenomenon, transsexualism, and any other potential non-traditional gender/sexes.

So, to put it bluntly, transsexual women no longer have penises; transgender women, using the more specific definition of the word, do (and frequently do when using the broader one). Thus far, the tag is being used primarily (if not exclusively) to tag characters with both penises and breasts -- characters the Japanese would call "Newhalf", a term that does not mean "transsexual" as stated in our current definition, but more "transgender" with a specialized context.


In option 1, the current definition would have to be reworded in conjunction with the name change. It currently reads:

"Game features a formerly male heroine who has undergone sex reassignment surgery, or identifies and acts as a member of the opposite sex" with the addendum "'Newhalf' is the Japanese term for transsexual".

It should probably ready something like:

"Game features a sexually-male heroine who identifies and/or acts as a member of the opposite sex. The heroine may or may not possess enlarged breasts due to hormone replacement therapy, cosmetic surgery, magic, or some other means that need not be specified. Sexual reassignment surgery may be involved, but is uncommon" with the addendum "'Newhalf' is a Japanese term referring to transgender women who still possess male sexual organs but also possess female secondary sex characteristics, such as enlarged and/or more feminine breasts. These developed breasts are usually either the result of hormone replacement therapy or cosmetic implants".


Going down this rabbit hole made me realize we also have problems with our current definition of Trap Heroine, which is defined simply as "a cross-dressing boy". In my experience with games featuring trap heroines, or more accurately the distinctly Japanese concept of the "Otoko no Ko", they're usually not simply "cross-dressing boys" as our current definition entails, but rather males that identify as women and dress as such. So "Trap Heroines" can almost always be considered "Transgender Heroines" as well; the instances in which cross-dressing takes place and no gender-identity issues play a role, such as for disguise purposes (like a male character dressing as a girl to attend an all-female school), should simply be covered by the broader and already existent Cross-dressing tag.

I don't see why "Transgender Heroine" and "Trap Heroine" couldn't coexist, especially using the above proposed definition of the former, as the latter tag only seems to involve characters that dress and present themselves as the opposite sex without any hormone therapy or surgery taking place. That being said, I think it's overdue that the "Trap Heroine" tag be renamed "Otoko no Ko Heroine" (one of its current aliases). Said tag is being used almost exclusively with Japanese works invoking that specified concept, and "trap" is both overly colloquial and considered by some to be a derisive term for "transgender".



Separate unrelated concerns follow:

Boobjob (and its affected child tags by proxy) should be changed to something else. I've only ever seen that term used to describe breast augmentation surgery or breast implants themselves. The sex act I see most popularly referred to as "Titfuck" or "Paizuri", the latter of which I prefer given that the overwhelming majority of VNs on this site are Japanese in origin and the former is simply crasser (what with the "fuck" in the name). That being said, "Paizuri" is a Japanese term referring to a sex act that is obviously not exclusively Japanese, so if that is considered problematic then reverting to the admittedly clinical "Mammary Intercourse" may be the best concession. I assume this tag was changed to "Boobjob" to try to bring it in line with the other "-jobs" (Handjob, Blowjob, Assjob, et al), but it simply doen't work very well.

*Proposal to rename Ganguro Heroine to Gyaru Heroine redacted as the two tags already coexist. My apologies.*Last modified on 2016-05-16 at 06:04

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