Tags suggestions/fixes

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#76 by gabezhul
2013-05-24 at 09:16
< report >You think you have it bad? Try talking with some seahorses.
#77 by PabloC
2013-05-24 at 09:30
< report >@74
What's the point of making consensual/non-consensual incest child tags, when you can just add the rape tag if necessary? Seriously, I don't get it. It's a completely different situation than those NTR sub-genres.

As for g1565, I find that concept rather funny and interesting. :P
#78 by soketsu
2013-05-24 at 10:09
< report >For crying out loud! Please refrain from complementing such heresy. It was quite disturbing that I don't think I can sleep tonight without guzzling liters of beer. T_T

That aside
Ok, consensuality is out.
How about these for "awareness":

*Incest Type A
The participants are fully aware that they are blood-related and that the act is a taboo.

*Incest Type B
All of the following conditions must be met:
1. At least one of the participants is unaware about his/her blood connection with his/her partner(s) and he/she has no idea that the act is incestuous.
2. At least one of the participants is fully aware of the blood-relation and the ethical implications of the act.

*Incest Type C
All of the participants are unaware of their blood relation.Last modified on 2013-05-24 at 10:14
#79 by PabloC
2013-05-24 at 10:45
< report >In vast majority of incest cases, both participants are well aware that they are related (I can't think of any examples where they didn't know), so there's no need for the "type A" tag - it would apply to almost all VNs with incest. Just make a tag for the much more uncommon "unaware incest":

Accidental incest
"At least one of the participants is unaware about his/her blood connection with his/her partner(s) and he/she has no idea that the act is incestuous."

I don't think it's necessary to specify whether all or just some of the participants are unaware.
#80 by ano
2013-05-24 at 11:30
< report >Type A: Blood-related incest tag
Type C: Incest tag without spoiler, Blood-related incest tag with spoiler

Type B: Maybe trying to revive the "Incest Drama" tag could work if you want something that complicated.Last modified on 2013-05-24 at 11:31
#81 by PabloC
2013-05-24 at 11:41
< report >Spoilers would only work in situation when the participants think they are non-blood related siblings (while being blood-related). What if they think they aren't related at all?
And incest drama has nothing to do with incest-awareness, it can be caused by various things.
#82 by aggressor
2013-05-24 at 11:41
< report >What about half-siblings and full siblings?
#83 by PabloC
2013-05-24 at 11:56
< report >Character traits (like i294 and i1136) deal with that. Tags-wise, both count as blood-related incest.Last modified on 2013-05-24 at 11:57
#84 by abyssaleros
2013-05-26 at 01:41
< report >I think that we should delete the condition
This tag is about intoxication, don't use it for games that has rape by drugging.
of g516.
In my opinion it does not make sense.
A lot of rape scenes involve drugs.
So if we would be staying true to this condition we could not tag a novel with drugged rape with this, which I strongly believe was never ever done by most taggers of this tag.

On the other way we would need a second tag for drug infused rape if we stay true to this condition, which does not make sense either.

So let us delete this condition.

If there is the tag sex involving drugs together with a rape tag, everyone knows there will be most certainly rape with drugs.
If there is only the sex involving drugs tag there is no rape with drugs in the novel.Last modified on 2013-05-26 at 01:43
#85 by PabloC
2013-05-26 at 11:26
< report >I didn't even notice this condition, so yeah, I was using that tag for rape as well.

I think that rape with drugs does deserve it's own tag, I don't see why not. Separating it form consensual sex involving drugs (like in Yume Miru Kusuri) makes sense. I made a relevant child tag - g1743.

We can change the mentioned condition in g516 to "This tag is about intoxication, for rape involving drugs, use g1743".
#86 by warfoki
2013-05-26 at 11:37
< report >@Pabloc:
That method still leaves lots of VNs mistagged. I'm also a culprit here, since I've tagged quite a few VNs with it without noticing that condition. Also, g1743 isn't good as a child tag if you leave that note there, since then g1743 will be excluded from g516. Which is not good, since whenever you search for a parent tag, child ags will also come up. So if you ask the database to show you g516, it will also show you g1743 this way, when the two tags should be mutually exclusive with these notes.

So my recommendation is: delete the problematic last line from the description of g516 and accept Pabloc's tag. Solves mistagging and makes things simpler in the future.Last modified on 2013-05-26 at 11:41
#87 by abyssaleros
2013-05-26 at 12:35
< report >Okay, I can see why g1743 has a condition itself, but we create her another incident with
tentacle monster's natural secretions and such do not count.
Not every tentacle sex (consenual or not) involves the usual aphrodisiac effect of tentacle juice.
So if someone sees the need to tag this, he or she could neither use the old g516, if the sex is non consensual, nor the new g1743 as this tag disallows tentacle aphrodisiacs at all.

But seriously could someone of you explain me why we need a distinction of consenual and non consensual use of drugs during sex? I thought therefore were the rape tags.Last modified on 2013-05-26 at 12:38
#88 by warfoki
2013-05-26 at 13:15
< report >@Abyssaleros
Well, technically speaking, just because there is "Rape" and "Sex Involving Drugs" under the same VN doesn't necessarily mean that there is rape involving drugs in it. I do think that we are over-specifying stuff here, but if we want to add new tags, at least don't make them self-contradictory; hence my previous post.
#89 by PabloC
2013-05-26 at 13:53
< report >@Warfoki
Well, you have a point, I kinda forgot how child tags work. So yeah, let's get rid of that condition in g516.
And I think such tag may be somewhat useful - like you said, g516 + rape combo doesn't cover all cases. Though it is quite specific indeed.
Well whatever, it's up to mods. :P

As for tentacles' aphrodisiacs, I added that condition because I think it's something different than sex involving drugs. IMO this tag should only be used for situations that involve someone consciously drugging the victim, not for cases where it's just an effect of some fantastic creature's abilities.
I don't think it's really necessary to specify whether the tentacles have any aphrodisiacs or not, but if someone finds a use for it, he can make a relevant child tag under tentacle rape/sex with monsters.Last modified on 2013-05-26 at 14:01
#90 by onemore
2013-05-26 at 14:25
< report >
I don't think it's really necessary to specify whether the tentacles have any aphrodisiacs or not, but if someone finds a use for it, he can make a relevant child tag under tentacle rape/sex with monsters.
That's way way WAY too specific, and not particularly useful - who would ever search for that specific trait?
#91 by abyssaleros
2013-05-26 at 15:11
< report >@Pabloc
As I wrote before I see why you have added your condition.

But let us analyze this scenarios (it is actually from some VN I read (cannot remember them exactly)).
A villain uses tentacles to rape a heroine with the clear intention to use the aphrodisiac secreation of them to make her sex addicted and docile.
Which drug tag, do you tag?Last modified on 2013-05-26 at 15:12
#92 by PabloC
2013-05-26 at 17:23
< report >Yeah, recently I did encounter a similar case in v11146 (typical slime monster and special snakes with aphrodisiac instead of normal venom used for the usual mindbreak purposes). That's why I added this condition. I generally meant the drug tag for more... down-to-earth scenes. It can be a magical potion or something, but when monsters are used to administer the aphrodisiac, THEY are raping the victim, so it belongs to the monster rape category.
Now, if the villain used the aphrodisiac-snake bite to incapacitate his prey, and then raped her himself/herself, that would kinda fit into the rape involving drugs category. But I don't remember any scenes like that - whenever I saw any monsters involved, they always did the raping part. It's rape involving monsters, drugs are just a side-effect.

We can get rid of that condition, but then there's a risk this tag will be added to all scenes with aphrodisiac secreting tentacles (and that's a majority of tentacle eroge). I can imagine someone looking for eroge that has scenes with heroines getting drugged and raped, but if this tag is added to every typical tentacle hentai, it will be quite useless.
#93 by abyssaleros
2013-05-26 at 17:35
< report >No I am fine with this condition, and I see that it is added to exclude all those tentacles which would make it quite useless indeed.
I just have problems (at least at the moment) why there is need for two distinct tags (consensual and non consensual).

Okay if there is someone interessted in finding a novel which has rape by drugs it is definitely usefull if it comes to existence.
But I guess that almost every single novel under g516 is about rape by drugs.
So it does not solve that problem.
#94 by PabloC
2013-05-26 at 18:04
< report >You have a point, most of the titles tagged with g516 look rather non-consensual (the only exception that I know is Yume Miru Kusuri). However, since such condition was added to g516, I guess there was a need to make a specific tag for consensual sex involving drugs. That's why I made a separate one for non-consensual version. That way it will be possible to easily search for both rape and consensual sex involving drugs (by including g516 and excluding g1743, after the new tag will be added to all relevant VNs at least).
#95 by warfoki
2013-05-26 at 18:28
< report >@Pabloc: No, you are wrong with this. The existence of g1743 won't help finding VNs with consensual sex involving drugs. If g516 would only cover consensual sex and rape involving drugs, you could be right. However, first of all, it already involves both cases. While in case of the popular, translated titles, the new tag will be added soon enough, in the most cases it won't. And second, g516 can be used for both cases, and for the cases when the tagger just doesn't know.

It's the same case then g358 and g1249. Lots of VNs tagged only with g358 have "Consensual Group Sex of One Female and Several Males" in them, or just that. Not to mention the case of hentai-type mindbreaking. If a heroine shots herself with aphrodisiac constantly after the mindbreak in a nukige, then what? How can we talk about consensual, when she doesn't have any will of her own to speak of?

So, all in all, I'm on Abyssaleros side here. Keep it simple. Have a tag for sex-related drug abuse and be done with it. Let's not repeat what happened with the ribbon traits.Last modified on 2013-05-26 at 18:30
#96 by PabloC
2013-05-26 at 18:50
< report >Maybe you're right. I still think that rape involving drugs somewhat deserves it's own specific tag, but if it's going to cause a lot of chaos, maybe we're better off keeping it simple like you said. Well whatever, I'll leave the decision to whoever added that condition to g516. ┐( ̄- ̄)┌Last modified on 2013-05-26 at 18:51
#97 by barfboy
2013-05-27 at 21:04
< report >@79

I can think of 3
c2334

and
v1336
the characters haven't been added yet

The space alien girl is your sister and neither you nor she knew it until the very end of the game when she asks 'what's a picture of my mother doing on your dresser?'

v427
The sister knows, the protagonist does not until after they've been having sex for weeks.
#98 by warfoki
2013-05-29 at 15:05
< report >g1741
What the hell?
Okay, I just noticed this tag under v195 and was kind of surprised that we have a tag like this. Then I saw that it's awaiting moderation still, so I'd like to take the opportunity and speak up against the existence of this tag.

1. "Poorly-drawn" is completely subjective to begin with.
2. Visual novel CGs are not supposed to be anatomically correct to begin with. How is a facial structure like c9321 (among thousands of others) is anatomically correct. Or the size of the protagonist's penis in v231. Or anything from Valkyria (nsfw example link). And I could go on and on. These are not poorly drawn, these are stylistic choices. Yet based on the description, these could be tagged with g1741.
3. As for the original intention of the tags, as in to tag mistakes in the art, we don't need it. First of all, it not something that anyone would search for, and I'd feel unfair to stigmatise an entire VN for one or two anatomical fuckups. We don't have tags for grammar errors, poor writing, poor characterisation, and so forth.
#99 by haruna
2013-05-29 at 15:36
< report >I haven't seen that tag before but your examples aren't actually what an artist would call anatomically incorrect. Heavily stylized yes but not anatomically incorrect.
Stylization means when something intentionally is altered to look different from nature while something anatomically incorrect is not meant to look that way.

For example the big eyes in Rewrite are stylization while the many sprites with bad perspective are a result of poor art skills.

But yeah, the tag probably isn't necessary.
#100 by warfoki
2013-05-29 at 15:42
< report >I get that, but this site isn't for artists only. Also, this "not meant to look that way" is pure subjective speculation (unless confirmed by the artist), so again not good as a base of a tag.