|#1026 by armony|
2017-07-28 at 18:44
|^ So, in short, it doesn't matter if the character is dateable or not, what really matters is how big a role they play in the story, right? Then I guess the brother from my example should be tagged as 'hero', not 'support character'.|
|#1027 by kiru|
2017-07-29 at 12:59
|Yes. It's more a rule of elimination. If the character is obviously not a support character, what's left is "hero" right now. The only other way would be to not use a tag at all. Which is a legitimate idea as well, but if you have no romance, and use that tag ( No Romance Plot ), it should definitely be fine to use hero. There are examples like that in the database already.|
|#1028 by cnkx|
2017-07-29 at 13:21
|In a romantic visual novel where you are a male MC and you can date heroines as usual (the majority of VN's, basically) but there's also another male character that could be considered "main" (this is rare, but it exists, example would be deardrops) it is not a good idea to add "hero" tags as that will only lead to confusion.|
I mean yeah technically hero or heroine role isn't strictly romance related, but it is in fact what most people attribute it to. If one adds hero tags all the time, it may lead to misconceptions like you're able to date the male or something. When in most cases you're not.
In your case I guess it's fine because of the "no romance plot" tag. But in most cases, it's not going to be a good idea IMO.
EDIT: then again, realistically speaking, there's also the homosexual related tags, so I dunno. I guess it really doesn't matter after all now that I think about it.Last modified on 2017-07-29 at 13:24
|#1029 by kiru|
2017-07-29 at 14:01
|In dating sims and whatnot, there's been somewhat the idea that any character not involved into the dating (aka not the protag or the dateable characters) are just supporting that stuff. After all, the main idea behind the games is dating characters, seeing a romance with them.|
However, VNs have long since evolved from just that. There are enough games, where the romance/dating is just a minor part, or even no part at all. Think of something like Umineko, as an extreme example. Umineko is currently handled with the "no tags" idea. The characters aren't really heroines or heroes in a traditional sense. They are still (correctly) considered main-characters though. This results into the VN not having tags based on what characters are in it, for the most part.
That just leads it back to what one wants. There is no one correct way, as we lack the correct tools for dealing with this. It kinda comes from the fact that vndb even bothers having tags for "not route" supporting characters. That may've been a mistake. I'm not sure, how many people even search for tags for the support characters. If those wouldn't be existing, we would have a clear answer.
Alternatively vndb could adapt general character tags. Problem solved. It could just all get mirrored from existing tags. They can be the main-tags, with the heroine/hero and support character ones being child-tags. Obviously, first you have, for example, a teacher character. If this teacher is a heroine/hero/support, one can further classify that with a child-tag. Would need some re-arranging of the current way this is handled, which makes it quite a bit of work though. And while it would solve this situation, it'd add even more complexity to an already convoluted mess of a tag-system. We really have too many tags...Last modified on 2017-07-29 at 14:02
|#1030 by dk382|
2017-07-29 at 18:28
|What I've always been told and thus have always done thus far is, for route-based VNs, only tag as if the characters with routes are heroines/heroes. In those kinds of games, no other characters should be marked as heroines/heroes, and any tags applied like that should be downvoted.|
This still enables some weridness, like technically Majikoi has same-sex routes, even though they're completely platonic. Perhaps we could add a "Platonic same-sex routes" tag or something and still tag them as heroes? Not sure.
|#1031 by armony|
2017-07-29 at 18:45
|^ There's Friendship Route tag, though it doesn't specify the gender of the friend character.|
|#1032 by cnkx|
2017-07-29 at 18:53
|@1031 Yeah, since it doesn't specify the sex, then it could also be seen as MORE misinformation: leading people to believe that a certain heroine has a route but she's not romance-able, obviously then disappointing many. Female friendship routes are extremely rare if not almost non existent, but yeah.|
Honestly, it's just hard to have a perfect solution where it will give 100% accurate information and understanding to everyone, mostly because all of us see things in different ways and have many different mindsets regarding meanings of things.
|#1033 by harleyquin|
2017-07-31 at 17:51
|I've done a search but haven't got a definitive answer so I'll ask here:|
For "trap heroine", does this apply to characters who are stated as male from the start yet are coerced into cross-dressing and rape by other male characters in the game?
|#1034 by vempele|
2017-08-11 at 15:06
|Edit: oh, Bunnygirl Heroine has already been mentioned.Last modified on 2017-08-11 at 15:08|
|#1035 by sakurakoi|
2017-08-11 at 17:14
Yeah, since it doesn't specify the sex, then it could also be seen as MORE misinformation: leading people to believe that a certain heroine has a route but she's not romance-ableThe point of being a hero or heroine is to be romance-able, one which is not, is not a hero or heroine so I also disagree with that statement:
I mean yeah technically hero or heroine role isn't strictly romance related
Main Characters that are romance-able are heroes and heroines, Side Characters that are romance-able are heroes and heroines too, though with a sub- added as prefix. All other characters who are not are main or side characters... or make an appearance in case of a cameo since nameless sprites don't really need their own character page (e.g Amayui Castle Meister has plenty of character sprites, for various soldiers, children, old and young or in between, all without name. Other, mostly rapey Nukige VNs also have victims which are just featured on HCG and only once, without a name and no character page here either, like KAI's works).
Support Character does not equal and do not need to be Side Character even if the Alias of the meta tag claims so (to begin with, why does it just state "These are all the non-heroine and non-protag characters a game has." when obviously heroes exist as well?) as long as there are no main character tags. I'd rather just remove the Support from the Support Character tags if there is no intend to cover main characters to just tell that at least one character in the work has this or that trait but is not necessarily romance-able. The size of the tag after all tells also how significant that element/character(s) is.
^ There's Friendship Route tag, though it doesn't specify the gender of the friend character.It does not really need to, after all, it does not contain romance.
For "trap heroine", does this apply to characters who are stated as male from the start yet are coerced into cross-dressing and rape by other male characters in the game?Yes, indeed they would be as long as they cross-dress for a significant amount of time... though I'd actually call them trap hero because this whole reverse-whatever is just BS and is very well showcased by that there is reverse-trap heroine.
|#1036 by skorpiondeath|
2017-08-12 at 11:39
|@1033, 1035: I would call it "Trap Heroine" maybe with a spoiler if that's the case. Tags like Feminization can apply too in that case. |
In case the character coerced into cross-dressing and rape by other male characters in the game is the protagonist and it has it's own trap ending the tag Trap Transformation Ending also exist.Last modified on 2017-08-12 at 11:40
|#1037 by dk382|
2017-08-12 at 16:56
Main Characters that are romance-able are heroes and heroines, Side Characters that are romance-able are heroes and heroines too, though with a sub- added as prefix. All other characters who are not are main or side characters... or make an appearance in case of a cameo since nameless sprites don't really need their own character page (e.g Amayui Castle Meister has plenty of character sprites, for various soldiers, children, old and young or in between, all without name. Other, mostly rapey Nukige VNs also have victims which are just featured on HCG and only once, without a name and no character page here either, like KAI's works).Characters that aren't in romantic stories but still play very prominent roles can be considered heroes/heroines as well. Ryuuguu Rena is one of Higurashi's heroines.
|#1038 by harleyquin|
2017-08-12 at 17:20
I would call it "Trap Heroine" maybe with a spoiler if that's the case. Tags like Feminization can apply too in that case.
In case the character coerced into cross-dressing and rape by other male characters in the game is the protagonist and it has it's own trap ending the tag Trap Transformation Ending also exist.
Character in question is not treated as female beyond the purposes of blackmail and when subject to rape by other male characters.
Certainly isn't a protagonist, so going by the replies received I'm concluding the character I was asking the question about shouldn't have the tags "trap heroine", "feminization" or "Trap Transformation Ending" applied.
|#1039 by sakurakoi|
2017-08-12 at 19:29
|The confusion about roles apparently reaches new heights, when the protagonist is seen as the hero or heroine of the story... no wait, that's actually the origin.|
The problem is how definitions change to fit new kinds of media and narratives over time, gamebooks, games and visual novels enable an experience unlike one has when "merely" viewing or reading a linear&kinetic work, whether it'd be a book, novel, movie, anime or play, usually an easily more immersive one where choices can actually be made. In contrary to those "classical works", the role of the protagonist is even more crystallized and common. Potential love interests instead of just mostly one or decided upon exist now.
We should really start to clearly differentiate between Protagonists, Deuteragonist/the Central Hero(ine) or Character, heroes and heroines, main characters as well as side&support characters. Currently, there are main characters tagged as support characters when the alias is side character and main characters are being equaled with hero(in)es.
Having this on a rather arbitrary work-by-work basis and by sometimes mere feel by plenty of users who are into their own genre, this serves for those who come upon the work as no help at all to discern the structure of a (for them at least) new work and whether they might like to read it (for one not having to research further elsewhere which could spoil more than they bargained for or they simply play it safe and potentially miss something they would actually like). Some sure would like to avoid romance, no?
Certainly isn't a protagonist, so going by the replies received I'm concluding the character I was asking the question about shouldn't have the tags "trap heroine", "feminization" or "Trap Transformation Ending" applied.In NTR works, the stolen/raped character still counts as hero(ine), though if never cross dressing otherwise, outside of the sexual action, one can indeed argue that they are no trap... even though other characters want them to view as such.
Imho for the sake of getting the information to those who want it, it'd still be better to call them a trap than neigh for since a trap should be anyone who is made by whomever, including themselves, to be mistaken as the opposite sex at any point. Size/Score of the tag also still can present how trap-ish or significant they are.
Now what you are maybe also looking for in any event is the Forced Cross-Dressing tag.
|#1040 by infernoplex|
2017-08-15 at 08:54
|Athlete Heroine tag has a little messed up description due to url tag not being properly closed at the Wikipedia article link.|
|#1041 by golgom93|
2017-08-17 at 14:39
|Personally, I think g1728 should be reinstated and made as a child tag of g156, especially with Ekikon Kenkyukai's growing list of toddlercon filled works.|
|#1042 by savagetiger|
2017-09-08 at 22:45
|The second paragraph of Protagonist With a Face should be rewritten to make it clear that those examples don't qualify for the tag.|
|#1043 by nutellafan|
2017-09-09 at 06:04
|Fixed #1040 and #1042.|
|#1044 by infernoplex|
2017-09-09 at 14:43
|#1045 by nutellafan|
2017-09-09 at 16:09
|You're welcome! Thank you for bringing the error to our attention. =)|
|#1046 by lunaterra|
2017-09-11 at 00:45
|Thief Protagonist and Thief Hero should be subtags of Crime.|
Pirate Hero should be a subtag of Pirates.
|#1047 by nutellafan|
2017-09-11 at 01:13
|#1048 by nutellafan|
2017-09-19 at 12:39
|Hello everyone, I've had some time to look through the tags and start working out what should be approved or denied. I've made a topic about the ones I'm unsure about, so feel free to drop in if you have opinions about them you'd like to share. Thanks!Last modified on 2017-09-19 at 12:39|
|#1049 by usagi|
2017-09-20 at 21:38
|What difference between Hate Sex (Consensual) and Rape with Blackmail or Rape Involving Drugs? Or just explain how hate sex can be consensual? 0_0|
|#1050 by infernoplex|
2017-09-20 at 22:16
|#1049 - I am more worried about that tag's name. There's no "Hate Sex (Non-Consensual)" otherwise known as Rape. It should have been just "Hate Sex" if the tag mod already decided to accept it.|
Also, I think I know what it was all about. Though I am surprised there are VNs with such content. You prompted me to google that up and this is what came out:
1. Link 1
2. Link 2
3. Link 3
Interesting stuff indeed ... Though I don't know if that warranted a whole new tag for VNDB xD ...
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