Tags suggestions/fixes

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#1076 by kiru
2017-10-10 at 23:43
I don't think lumping everything together would be a good idea. Backlog jump is actually not really related to conventional skipping. We probably need to separate the following:

Scene jump allows you to go to specified places in a fast and efficient way. Want to see chapter 3-1? Sure, no problem. Click on 3-1 and you are there. Something like that. It's available in games like Senren * Banka or Aqua and can be part of a flowchart, but doesn't have to be. Minor differences may exist, like how in the latter you can actually choose a chapter and then also very easily a line as well, while the other one isn't quite that allowing and you have to skip normally to get further into a given scene. But the point is that you have the pretty much fastest skipping possibility that exists with this, well structured to make it easy to find what you are looking for.
(edit: btw, this exists as "normal scene recollection", but that may need to get some changes, as it's not always done in typical recollection way, and that tag itself also applies if ANY normal scene is there, not just ALL of them)

Scene skip would be as we know it and exists. It's a faster skipping, slower than the direct ability to choose a scene though. How much slower depends on the game, but it can be easily 30-60 minutes in the worst cases. Scenes you can not "scene skip" past for whatever reason to just having a LOT of scenes. It's also nowhere near as easy to find the scene you want.

Backlog jump would be pretty much skipping to a point in the backlog of your choice, which is usually limited to a x hundred lines to "everything that was before" but never everything you have seen (let alone featuring any way to find the right thing easily as it's literally just a backlog, as huge as it may be able to be). Backlog jump is NOT INTENDED FOR BIG JUMPS. This is solely a feature to go back a few lines, nothing more nothing less. Having backlog jump does in no way give you a fast way to reach a specific point in the VN, you will need normal skipping or actual scene skip/jump for that, so making it the same as scene skip would already be very bad. The problem here is simply: It's only backwards.

Only "scene jump" allows you to immediately go to a chapter of your choice. It's pretty much a more modern version of scene skip, so one could merge these to an extend, however if a game has a ton of scenes and perhaps unskipable scenes like Baldr Sky Dive1 “Lost Memory”, which has scene skip but can not skip any parts featuring the rendered mecha nor gameplay, means there's still a VERY mattering difference. Scene jump allows you to go where you want within seconds and makes it easy to find as well. Scene skip could still take half an hour or more, while normal skip would take over a full hour. Convenience factor and speed. Which is why it's tracked in the first place.
Backlog jump is however really not related to conventional skipping at all, as it's not meant for any serious skipping. You can argue about merging scene skip and scene jump, but backlog jump is just not giving any of the convenience. The best way to look at it is like this: If you look for something with a "quick jumping" tag, would you be satisfied with just a backlog jump that in the worst case only covers the last 100 lines or so? I don't think so.Last modified on 2017-10-10 at 23:48
#1077 by dinosw
2017-10-11 at 00:17
#1075 nutellafan - I agree that it might be a good idea to add a meta-tag for all jump and skip related tags, but as #1076 kiru points out, the difference should be made very clear, which the meta name "Quick Jump" wouldn't do.
The name "Replayable backlog" is in hindsight probably not the best. "Backlog jump" as Kiru phrases it, would be a much better name.
I also agree with Kiru, that the tags "Scene Jump" and "Scene Skip" are quite different from each-other. Scene Skip is basically just a fast forward, whereas Scene Jump allows you to a scene of your choosing.

Well, my brain is basically asleep right now (it's the middle of the night), so I'll be back here some time tomorrow ;-)
#1078 by usagi
2017-10-11 at 00:40
To my understanding, the database only wants to accept the most basic features- or the lack thereof, depending on the feature itself- and do not want to create a trend of making tags for feature minutiae.
me (or another mod) continuing to allow variants of Quick Jumps will encourage other minor variant submissions...

This. IMO, Backlog Jump is absolutely useless tag. Can you imagine people specifically searching vns with this function? I can not. Maybe we should introduce tags for each color of textbox then? )
Do not bloat humongous already heap of redundant tags here, please. Harmony lies in moderation.Last modified on 2017-10-11 at 00:52
#1079 by infernoplex
2017-10-11 at 01:04
Heh, @usagi talking about useless and redundant tags. I have seen some in the DB already. Like Music Recollection and some others. I feel inclined to vote on them anywhere and everywhere xD ...

By the way, I don't agree with @usagi on the "searchibility" factor. If I were to take him at face value on that, then I'd have to agree with him that nobody is using the database to search for any of these other technical tags (take most of these as an example). Do you see anybody specifically looking for VNs tagged as "Read Text Marking" or "Spelling Errors" or any of that? I keep technical tags like these always open on VN's pages because they mostly never show spoilers (though some "Content" ones are clearly in the wrong category as "Technical"). So should we delete all of these technical tags because users wouldn't be specifically looking for them?

As for my opinion on Replayable Backlog, I never saw it so far and don't know how it looks like in-game but if what @kiru said is true, then it's not what I was imagining it to be. I thought Replayable Backlog would indicate a total replayability of every single line in a VN, at any point of time, using the backlog to jump at any point.
#1080 by dinosw
2017-10-11 at 11:51
#1074 by kei-tr
@ 1073

Lulz. If this going to be added then get in the line since I was first: quick jump

Though your wording/explanation more elaborate than mine if I have to admit.

You might have been, there's no creation date for the tags.
I believe it was back in February or March that I submitted the tag.Last modified on 2017-10-11 at 11:51
#1081 by dinosw
2017-10-11 at 11:56
#1078 by usagi
It may be useless for you, but that doesn't mean that it is useless for everyone else.

There are many tags on VNDB, where I find myself thinking the exact same thing as you just said, that they are quite useless. The ability to jump back to a point in your backlog, is however not a useless tag at all (IMO), and I have on several occasions tried searching for this function.
#1082 by dinosw
2017-10-11 at 12:10
#1079 by infernoplex
I just opened a game, which has the "replayable backlog / backlog jump" function (Noble Works), and took a screenshot of it, so that you can see what it looks like: link
#1083 by kei-tr
2017-10-11 at 13:49
@ 1080

You might have been, there's no creation date for the tags.

Sure, there is no creation date for tags (to my knowledge at least) but there is a date for denying them. If you go denied tags from main tags page you can see list of denied tags with dates they are denied. link

Well, actually I don't have any problem as long as main idea is added as a tag but I might be slightly offended if they add yours without changing it at all while completely ignoring mine.

By the way, in my opinion Backlog Jump is much better name for it from both Replayable Backlog and Quick Jump.

Lastly, one of the most popular vn which has this function is Majikoi S, I think.Last modified on 2017-10-11 at 14:00
#1084 by infernoplex
2017-10-11 at 14:36
#1082 @dinosw - Ah, I see now, well, it's an interesting feature. But as @kiru said earlier, it's limited only to x number of lines already read. And it makes sense to me, I imagine it would be a huge pain in the ass to scroll back infinitively to 1000s of lines before. But I still think it's a useful feature. Though I agree with what @kiru said, this is not something you'd want to group in the big scene jumping methods. In VNs that have Normal Scene Recollection, I often use that feature in VNs that have it to go back and read some scenes again and those are what I consider VNs with full replayability feature. Backlog Quick Jumping is just for short kind of jumping back. Though It's still an interesting feature. I imagine it'd be very useful at times when somebody needs to go to a shorter point back in time.
#1085 by dinosw
2017-10-11 at 15:32
#1083 by kei-tr
I agree that the term "Backlog Jump" is better then what either of us had suggested ;-) As I also said here: #1077. :)
I often use the backlog jump function, so having it as a tag would be a big help.
#1086 by dinosw
2017-10-13 at 08:49
#1083 by kei-tr
I actually think that the entire Majikoi series has that feature, not just from Majikoi S and onwards.

#1084 by infernoplex
It is very useful in varies situations, for instance, if you have clicked an extra time by accident, you can easily go back a scene or two, without having to reload the game.
#1087 by kei-tr
2017-10-13 at 12:07
No, original Majikoi not has that function. I don't know A series though since I didn't read them yet.Last modified on 2017-10-13 at 12:08
#1088 by dinosw
2017-10-14 at 06:52
#1087 by kei-tr
Thanks for clarifying it for me :)
I am completely sure about Majikoi S and Majikoi A-Series. Or rather, for the A-series I am sure about 1-3, but they are built with the same engine. There even is a version in Japanese, which contains all of the A-Series games.
#1089 by nutellafan
2017-10-21 at 01:50
Thank you for your thoughts everyone. After going over them, I think a "Backlog Jump" tag should be fair. On a personal level, it's a function I've been coming across a lot, lately. While I definitely agree it's useful, I erred on the side of being very strict about adding more to the "basic/common function" tag pool.
#1090 by 707
2017-10-21 at 13:14
I don't know if this is the right place, but I want to know more about tag Only a Single Heroine.

Does it refer to a game where the only character is the protagonist and a single heroine?
Or a game where you can only capture 1 heroine among the characters?

The desc says "This game has only a single heroine to interact with, that's all the story is about," and I interpret that as the first option, but some games like Kud Wafter has this tag, when Kud isn't the only character that have route (refer to this t5697).

Maybe the desc should be more clearer.
#1091 by sakurakoi
2017-10-22 at 03:12
I utterly advise to not make exceptions define the rule, heroes and heroines are love interests. They were originally and they should remain that and not drift further from what heroes and heroines were first. Whatever love it may be, not friends4ever nor main characters no matter how important and if they get an ending (Hint: There are tags for that).

Works which have no romance, none at all, simply do not have heroines and heroes unless they are literally heroes (and not figuratively), it should be as simple as that but people just like to make it unnecessarily complicated... Likewise Support Characters =/= Side Characters.
#1092 by kiru
2017-10-22 at 10:31
We have no tags for main characters that are no heroines/heroes. So if you actually wanna tag for these characters, you don't get around using the heroine/hero tags. It's unfortunate, but the current tagging system is like that.
Also btw., support characters = side characters. They SUPPORT the story and main characters, and as such are simply side characters. A story can't work with only support characters, further showing that.
Ideally the tag system would change. There are more than enough cases already, where you just have typical heroines, but also characters so important that you can't just call them a "support".

As for "only a single heroine", it falls into the same category. However this usually refers to, that you can only "get" one girl. From that thread it sounds like Kud Wafter has only one ending and one romantic relationship, so it fits. Arcs do not matter. Opening movies do not matter. Few games have no other characters in them anyway.
If the protag can not get together with the girl, but instead go down another way that is not just a bad ending, friendship or not, this would make the tag probably wrong. Stuff like that barely exists though... if at all.
edit: However, just like with every tag on vndb, it's about popular believe. You can give your own opinion on if it fits or not with your vote on the tag. Sometimes, there's simply no clear solution. And these votes than give the tag a certain strength. Low strength means, it's debatable, if it's REALLY just one single heroine or not. Perhaps that is what would fit here.Last modified on 2017-10-22 at 10:35
#1093 by runeii
2017-11-03 at 04:12
I'd like to suggest that Past British Isles be made a child tag of Europe.
#1094 by dk382
2017-11-03 at 06:48
The tag Imouto-type Heroine has been and still is a bit of a problem tag. A very large percentage of the games tagged with it are done so for actual imouto heroines, which as far as I understand, the tag isn't for.

The tag description is incredibly vague.

These games have at least one Imouto-type-character.

This tag is used as a character trait of heroines.
1) no crap, 2) what even is an "imouto type" character? How do we define that? What specific interactions or scenarios are we looking for? A better-explained tag could help a lot in cutting down on mistagging.

I imagine it's for unrelated heroines who treat the protagonist like their older brother. Can it work in reverse? To what degree are we looking for here? Just anyone who calls the protagonist oniichan? Should they have to be living together? In Eiyuu*Senki, the character Himiko calls the protagonist Onii-sama, and really early on the protagonist remarks that he's starting to see her as a sister. You'd think this would make it an obvious choice for the tag, but no one tagged it for years until I did last night. There seems to be a lot of confusion for how this tag should be applied.

Some of the same things can be said for Oneesan-type Heroine, though the "oneesan" type is a much more popular and defined trope among heroines, leading to less mistagging.Last modified on 2017-11-03 at 06:51
#1095 by thewayfarer
2017-11-03 at 08:32
I'll state my opinion about it... As a character trait, you can make a character call out a character like their "sibling." For aestheticism, like making that heroine cutesy, to make her adorable. Make them like a fluffy pillow that you can hug even in your sleep. A character that relies on dependence on one person, often idolizing them. Someone who relies on one person like their brother-figure. It's pretty much a dependence trait where one person basically looks up to them like their older sibling.

...Okay well, the only thing I'm thinking about that "Imouto-type" tag is a character who is really dependable, their character mirrors like that to a "brocon little sister." They can be either really be the protagonist's sister or not, but almost rivals that Protag's Sister tag. But basically "Imouto-types" means how the heroine treats the protagonist as: A someone who can they really depend on because of 'his' characteristic, mainly because he's a cool guy with developed youth around others. Yeah, people who doesn't get the concept may end up mashing together with "Sister" and "Brocon" heroine tags if the game does contain the protag's sister as a heroine, who really appreciates her brother a lot.

It's an okay concept of character development about dependence, but personally that could be a mild cliche you'd have to work around. In development talk to say the least.Last modified on 2017-11-03 at 08:35
#1096 by vempele
2017-11-03 at 08:40
A very large percentage of the games tagged with it are done so for actual imouto heroines,
Probably because there's no "Protagonist's younger (older) sister as a heroine" tag.
#1097 by eacil
2017-11-22 at 20:15
I see my Flat shading was denied. It seems the reason is complete lack of understanding. I should say I have no knowledge about "photo editing and the like", I just know what is the difference between two major shading techniques: flat tints and gradation, which I assumed every fan of anime art know, even more when talking about VN. Maybe did I use the wrong terms but there seems to not have any official term for flat tint (I sometimes saw solid color). I gave plenty of examples, though.
I guess definitions are mandatory.
Flat tint = a coat of water color of one uniform shade.
Gradation = a gradual or barely perceptible change from one tone or shade, as of color, to another.
Taken from thefreedictionary.

I started talking about "filters or graphical effects" because those ones can alter the purity of a flat tint with external effects. I unfortunately talked about "filter" about the sunset but I should have said "effect" because what twist the shadow is the light source. Well, you see how I have no knowledge about "photo editing and the like"! Well, you can't edit your tags so not much I could have done but I wasn't expecting such strong refusal.
#1098 by warfoki
2017-11-22 at 22:15
which I assumed every fan of anime art know

fans of anime art =/= VN readers

The only thing I can tell about anime art in a VN is whether I like it or not. So, yeah, if you use any terminology that is not commonly used should be defined in the description or linked to a reliable outside source for definitions.

With these definitions I think I'm starting to get the idea. So let's see if I get this right: gradation is when shades don't have a sharp outline, but are gradually progressing to darker or lighter shades of the given color. Flat shading is when there's a clear cut line between the different shades.

Assuming that I'm right (correct me if I'm not) I still don't see the viability of this tag for multiple reasons:

1) A whole lot of VNs use both techniques as they are not at all mutually exclusive. There's a real chance of people just tagging them with this because they remember a scene / see a screenshot that uses flat shading, even though CGs use both techniques.

2) This tag opens the gate for a lot of technical tags that we probably REALLY don't need. This is a VN database, not an art gallery.

3) The description contains a lot of exceptions that should not be tagged and this is not clear from the name alone. The name doesn't suggests that the tag should be used only when we have a scene that uses flat shades exclusively. Hell, it's not even that as your 4th "to be tagged" example admittedly contains gradation, even though you specify that images using both techniques should not be tagged.

So it's a tag for a highly technical nuance with unclear inclusion guidelines and a deceiving name that will cause mistagging (if anyone bothers to use this in the first place). I realy don't see any upside in letting this one through.Last modified on 2017-11-22 at 22:17
#1099 by eacil
2017-11-25 at 01:10
That is no anime terminology, it's just art terminology. I said anime art because it's more prevalent based on the fact gradation is hardly practicable for 2D animation (can't think of any example). Seriously it is no high technique, it's something you spot with a naked eye. Even if you don't have an interest in anime, you might know what a flat tint is from manga unless you never took any interest in what assistants do.

-Flat Shading Only then.
-"An example using both techniques (to no be tagged):" from Josou Kaikyou should be deleted because a flat tint is a flat tint and I dug into unnecessarily considerations, the fact that Aogiri Penta uses gradation _inside_ a well-defined area, i.e. with edges, which is one intrinsic property of flat tints. The result is desirable but it's not flat tint per se, and it's contradicting the "uses both technique side by side that shouldn't be tagged". It's confusing so forget about it. This tag was more a working draft than something definitive and I was waiting a discussion but I see we need to keep it really simple.

Which means, now, we have only one exception: special effects and filters.
You need to think of special effects/filters as an extra layer, a post production process which takes place after the color and tones were applied. Ask yourself, is a blurry effect on a part of a CG from an artist who inserted focus concept in his work, enough to discard the tag? A little bit of steam in a CG happening in an onsen will discard the whole VN from having the tag because the steam altered the flat tints? Whoever will want to search this tag will be interested by the base style of the shades, not the external contingencies from CG to CG. In the case of filters, it's a bit more difficult because a filter can alter the general art style for the purpose of giving it *an atmosphere*. Still, the base shading is flat tints and the filter an extra layer that accidentally interferes with the flat tints.

Now, read this updated definition and tell me what do you think about it.

Flat Tints Only

The base shading of this VN only uses flat tints in opposition to gradation.
A flat tint is a coat of water color of one uniform shade when a gradation is a gradual or barely perceptible change from one tone or shade, as of color, to another.
This applies to tachie/sprite and event CG, not to backgrounds (usually drawn by a different artist and which can use a totally different art style).
Both techniques can be used in conjunction in a single CG/tachie but they must not use this tag.

Example of flat tints only:
link (this one is animated, which explain why this kind of shading is used and why Anime-like shading is an alias of this tag)

Example of gradation (pretty much every VN):

An example and counter-example (with the skin) using PC98 assets:

Graphical effects and filters added to the base shading can be applied on a CG and alter the flat tints to the point it adds little gradation to it but it doesn't discard the VN from being tagged as long as the base shading is made of flat tints.
Examples of graphical effects are steam (for onsen events), blurring (for focus), sunset effect, etc. An example of filter would be a "dazzling" filter.

Two examples taken from the same visual novel, v18580:

Graphical sunset effect.
It adds, from a single point, the sun behind the glass, more light to the base shading with the purpose of making the CG dazzling.

Example of "dazzling" filter.
It makes the whole erotic scene looks like it was taken from a phantasm even though it doesn't have extra light source like it was the case with the previous example.

Now, the base shading without impurities can be seen from the tachie.

Like that, the "exception" (which is not one if you take into account that only the base shading matters) can only be used by a user who read the whole definition. A lazy reader will only stick to the flat tints versus gradation.

2)I don't think of any, relevant enough to deserve a tag. Those two techniques are major families within VN field and describe quite drastic changes in artwork appreciation. Whoever read Aoiro Note must have notice that the art style wasn't "the usual". To tell you, when I first read VN, I couldn't stand the cheap use of computer generated gradation you can see with most VN. That's basically resuming why I find early years of windows releases to be fuckugly. I love PC98 shading for the reason that you *see* the gradation as superposed "flat tints" with pixel flakes around the edges because of color limitation.
It's something people know about because I often see the animation field be set when the VN uses flat tints because someone like me had the reflex to ask himself if it was animated (and be disappointed when it wasn't thanks to whoever set the animation field beforehand). Anyway, to dismiss art tags because it's not "an art gallery" when talking about a "visual" medium...Last modified on 2017-11-25 at 09:06
#1100 by hko2006
2017-11-29 at 04:42
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