Tags suggestions/fixes

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#1076 by kiru
2017-10-10 at 23:43
I don't think lumping everything together would be a good idea. Backlog jump is actually not really related to conventional skipping. We probably need to separate the following:

Scene jump allows you to go to specified places in a fast and efficient way. Want to see chapter 3-1? Sure, no problem. Click on 3-1 and you are there. Something like that. It's available in games like Senren * Banka or Aqua and can be part of a flowchart, but doesn't have to be. Minor differences may exist, like how in the latter you can actually choose a chapter and then also very easily a line as well, while the other one isn't quite that allowing and you have to skip normally to get further into a given scene. But the point is that you have the pretty much fastest skipping possibility that exists with this, well structured to make it easy to find what you are looking for.
(edit: btw, this exists as "normal scene recollection", but that may need to get some changes, as it's not always done in typical recollection way, and that tag itself also applies if ANY normal scene is there, not just ALL of them)

Scene skip would be as we know it and exists. It's a faster skipping, slower than the direct ability to choose a scene though. How much slower depends on the game, but it can be easily 30-60 minutes in the worst cases. Scenes you can not "scene skip" past for whatever reason to just having a LOT of scenes. It's also nowhere near as easy to find the scene you want.

Backlog jump would be pretty much skipping to a point in the backlog of your choice, which is usually limited to a x hundred lines to "everything that was before" but never everything you have seen (let alone featuring any way to find the right thing easily as it's literally just a backlog, as huge as it may be able to be). Backlog jump is NOT INTENDED FOR BIG JUMPS. This is solely a feature to go back a few lines, nothing more nothing less. Having backlog jump does in no way give you a fast way to reach a specific point in the VN, you will need normal skipping or actual scene skip/jump for that, so making it the same as scene skip would already be very bad. The problem here is simply: It's only backwards.

Only "scene jump" allows you to immediately go to a chapter of your choice. It's pretty much a more modern version of scene skip, so one could merge these to an extend, however if a game has a ton of scenes and perhaps unskipable scenes like Baldr Sky Dive1 “Lost Memory”, which has scene skip but can not skip any parts featuring the rendered mecha nor gameplay, means there's still a VERY mattering difference. Scene jump allows you to go where you want within seconds and makes it easy to find as well. Scene skip could still take half an hour or more, while normal skip would take over a full hour. Convenience factor and speed. Which is why it's tracked in the first place.
Backlog jump is however really not related to conventional skipping at all, as it's not meant for any serious skipping. You can argue about merging scene skip and scene jump, but backlog jump is just not giving any of the convenience. The best way to look at it is like this: If you look for something with a "quick jumping" tag, would you be satisfied with just a backlog jump that in the worst case only covers the last 100 lines or so? I don't think so.Last modified on 2017-10-10 at 23:48
#1077 by dinosw
2017-10-11 at 00:17
#1075 nutellafan - I agree that it might be a good idea to add a meta-tag for all jump and skip related tags, but as #1076 kiru points out, the difference should be made very clear, which the meta name "Quick Jump" wouldn't do.
The name "Replayable backlog" is in hindsight probably not the best. "Backlog jump" as Kiru phrases it, would be a much better name.
I also agree with Kiru, that the tags "Scene Jump" and "Scene Skip" are quite different from each-other. Scene Skip is basically just a fast forward, whereas Scene Jump allows you to a scene of your choosing.

Well, my brain is basically asleep right now (it's the middle of the night), so I'll be back here some time tomorrow ;-)
#1078 by usagi
2017-10-11 at 00:40
To my understanding, the database only wants to accept the most basic features- or the lack thereof, depending on the feature itself- and do not want to create a trend of making tags for feature minutiae.
me (or another mod) continuing to allow variants of Quick Jumps will encourage other minor variant submissions...

This. IMO, Backlog Jump is absolutely useless tag. Can you imagine people specifically searching vns with this function? I can not. Maybe we should introduce tags for each color of textbox then? )
Do not bloat humongous already heap of redundant tags here, please. Harmony lies in moderation.Last modified on 2017-10-11 at 00:52
#1079 by infernoplex
2017-10-11 at 01:04
Heh, @usagi talking about useless and redundant tags. I have seen some in the DB already. Like Music Recollection and some others. I feel inclined to vote on them anywhere and everywhere xD ...

By the way, I don't agree with @usagi on the "searchibility" factor. If I were to take him at face value on that, then I'd have to agree with him that nobody is using the database to search for any of these other technical tags (take most of these as an example). Do you see anybody specifically looking for VNs tagged as "Read Text Marking" or "Spelling Errors" or any of that? I keep technical tags like these always open on VN's pages because they mostly never show spoilers (though some "Content" ones are clearly in the wrong category as "Technical"). So should we delete all of these technical tags because users wouldn't be specifically looking for them?

As for my opinion on Replayable Backlog, I never saw it so far and don't know how it looks like in-game but if what @kiru said is true, then it's not what I was imagining it to be. I thought Replayable Backlog would indicate a total replayability of every single line in a VN, at any point of time, using the backlog to jump at any point.
#1080 by dinosw
2017-10-11 at 11:51
#1074 by kei-tr
@ 1073

Lulz. If this going to be added then get in the line since I was first: quick jump

Though your wording/explanation more elaborate than mine if I have to admit.

You might have been, there's no creation date for the tags.
I believe it was back in February or March that I submitted the tag.Last modified on 2017-10-11 at 11:51
#1081 by dinosw
2017-10-11 at 11:56
#1078 by usagi
It may be useless for you, but that doesn't mean that it is useless for everyone else.

There are many tags on VNDB, where I find myself thinking the exact same thing as you just said, that they are quite useless. The ability to jump back to a point in your backlog, is however not a useless tag at all (IMO), and I have on several occasions tried searching for this function.
#1082 by dinosw
2017-10-11 at 12:10
#1079 by infernoplex
I just opened a game, which has the "replayable backlog / backlog jump" function (Noble Works), and took a screenshot of it, so that you can see what it looks like: link
#1083 by kei-tr
2017-10-11 at 13:49
@ 1080

You might have been, there's no creation date for the tags.

Sure, there is no creation date for tags (to my knowledge at least) but there is a date for denying them. If you go denied tags from main tags page you can see list of denied tags with dates they are denied. link

Well, actually I don't have any problem as long as main idea is added as a tag but I might be slightly offended if they add yours without changing it at all while completely ignoring mine.

By the way, in my opinion Backlog Jump is much better name for it from both Replayable Backlog and Quick Jump.

Lastly, one of the most popular vn which has this function is Majikoi S, I think.Last modified on 2017-10-11 at 14:00
#1084 by infernoplex
2017-10-11 at 14:36
#1082 @dinosw - Ah, I see now, well, it's an interesting feature. But as @kiru said earlier, it's limited only to x number of lines already read. And it makes sense to me, I imagine it would be a huge pain in the ass to scroll back infinitively to 1000s of lines before. But I still think it's a useful feature. Though I agree with what @kiru said, this is not something you'd want to group in the big scene jumping methods. In VNs that have Normal Scene Recollection, I often use that feature in VNs that have it to go back and read some scenes again and those are what I consider VNs with full replayability feature. Backlog Quick Jumping is just for short kind of jumping back. Though It's still an interesting feature. I imagine it'd be very useful at times when somebody needs to go to a shorter point back in time.
#1085 by dinosw
2017-10-11 at 15:32
#1083 by kei-tr
I agree that the term "Backlog Jump" is better then what either of us had suggested ;-) As I also said here: #1077. :)
I often use the backlog jump function, so having it as a tag would be a big help.
#1086 by dinosw
2017-10-13 at 08:49
#1083 by kei-tr
I actually think that the entire Majikoi series has that feature, not just from Majikoi S and onwards.

#1084 by infernoplex
It is very useful in varies situations, for instance, if you have clicked an extra time by accident, you can easily go back a scene or two, without having to reload the game.
#1087 by kei-tr
2017-10-13 at 12:07
No, original Majikoi not has that function. I don't know A series though since I didn't read them yet.Last modified on 2017-10-13 at 12:08
#1088 by dinosw
2017-10-14 at 06:52
#1087 by kei-tr
Thanks for clarifying it for me :)
I am completely sure about Majikoi S and Majikoi A-Series. Or rather, for the A-series I am sure about 1-3, but they are built with the same engine. There even is a version in Japanese, which contains all of the A-Series games.
#1089 by nutellafan
2017-10-21 at 01:50
Thank you for your thoughts everyone. After going over them, I think a "Backlog Jump" tag should be fair. On a personal level, it's a function I've been coming across a lot, lately. While I definitely agree it's useful, I erred on the side of being very strict about adding more to the "basic/common function" tag pool.


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