|#1251 by minah|
2018-06-27 at 18:38
|^ Enzai and Oshigoto → Shachou (Honjitsu Tsuke) were the two I had in mind when I proposed the tag, and in both cases involve a route that's not only unlockable (you have to play other routes first) but secret (you have to pick a certain order of non-intuitive choices to suddenly meet a character who's never appeared in the game before).|
I thought that was kind of interesting, so I figured even if I only knew of two cases, if there was a tag other people would tag VNs like that which I hadn't heard of. But, well, here we are.
I agree wtih nuking it, then possibly creating a new Secret Hero(ine) tag if there's enough cases where it applies that with better tag name, usefulness > misuse.
|#1252 by leery|
2018-06-28 at 09:15
|I like the Unlockable Hero(ine) tag. What I don't like is its description.|
First of all, "locked" means "unattainable", not "does not even appear", as kiru suggested.
(For the next two paragraphs, I am completely ignoring what the tags' descriptions say, only focussing on its title.)
To me, an Unlockable Routes is a new route, a new ending for a heroine, available by hitting some sort of condition. The condition usually is hitting a certain ending or maybe just finishing the game. (Not "Buy an expensive pair of jeans at the shop.") The heroine was available before, but maybe her True End was locked away, or something similar.
Unlockable Hero(ine) is a special case of it, where a whole new heroine is available. That heroine may have acted as a side character so far.
And quoting t3617.1190 here since nobody showed an interest in it (and it's three pages away anyway):
In Narikiri Princess ~Onna ni Natta Boku o Mite!~, the nurse heroine is locked until you hit a bad end. If you try to go on her route before she is unlocked, you'll get a bad end. If you try again, you'll successfully access her route. She is very much a part of the script even before you're on her route.
In Zwei Worter, there are three initial heroines. Once you have finished their routes, the catgirl heroine becomes available. Once you finish her route, the green-haired heroine becomes available. These two heroines make brief appearances in the game before unlocked.
In Namaashi Club 5 x 5, the pony-tailed presenter is locked until you finish an ending for each of the five contestant girls. There is no indication that she is available as a heroine before that.
Are those not all unlockable heroines? Must I tag them something else just because the tag description says they "don't even appear in the game"?
Yes, I think all of those are Unlockable Heroines. Zwei Worter comes closest to what the tag's current description says, but even that game, I think, would be out.
(And given the description in the trait Unlockable, I think someone agrees with my definition.)
If you want a Secret Heroine tag, go ahead and make such a tag, but please don't nuke Unlockable Hero(ine). Fix its description to match its title instead.
@beliar: The last one was Defloration by an Object.
And about Test of Courage, I think that the organiser of such an event sometimes plays pranks on the participants, tries to make it more scary than it is. Mine (from the game I still don't remember) was about retrieving some item from a Shinto temple, going through the forest.
Not sure Horror is the best parent tag for it though. It's just a side event meant to give a CG or two. Maybe something for the 'Story Events' meta-tag I proposed in t3617.1208 (and again got zero response.)Last modified on 2018-06-28 at 09:34
|#1253 by skorpiondeath|
2018-06-28 at 10:21
|About unlockable heroine and unlockable routes I fully agree with leery, and I agree too that "unlockable" does not mean hidden.|
While a Hidden Heroine is an Unlockable Heroine because after meeting some conditions she will be revealed (thus unlocked) the vice versa does not apply. Unlockable Heroine does not imply she is hidden, maybe she is revelead at the beginning of the story and you can unlock her after meeting certain conditions. Usually this happens when the heroine is available as a side character without a route and just makes an appearence. I recall one VN where you could interact with a girl only after finishing the game on a second playtrough but you met her in the beginning of the story only for a short period of time. Meaning she was not hidden but she was unlockable (and her sexual scenes too).
Also an Unlockable Route to me is a broader term than Unlockable Heroine. If you unlock a route that does not imply you unlocked an heroine while unlocking a heroine certainly unlocks one or more of her routes.
So this is is my idea of relation about this subject.
Unlockable Routes -> Unlockable Heroine -> Hidden HeroineLast modified on 2018-06-28 at 10:26
|#1254 by minah|
2018-06-28 at 14:42
So this is is my idea of relation about this subject.
Unlockable Routes -> Unlockable Heroine -> Hidden Heroine
That's not a bad idea.Last modified on 2018-06-28 at 14:43
|#1255 by usagi|
2018-06-29 at 22:18
I'm kicking out all the engines still in the waiting queue, because they are too release dependent. It's the information that should be added to a release and not clutter the tag list, especially for VNs that have multiple ports do different engines. If an appropriate solution to the problem arises in the future, the tags can be undeleted, but it's useless to keep them in the approval line, as I have no intention of approving them as they currently are.Could you clarify why having multiple engine tags for one vn is a problem? Is it only because of cluttering? If so - it's a joke, isn't it? I mean there are TONS of redundant tags like "fighting protagonist" and "sword-wielding protagonist" or "sexual content" and "blowjob" usually located one next to other - which are much more deserving to blame for inflating tags cloud. Unlike engine tags 'cause each of them is actually useful and you get really factual and to the point information.
Also in overwhelming majority of cases there will be only ONE engine tag anyway (multiple ports to multiple WIDESPREAD (in other words - taggable) engines is a rarity) - which don't seem to me as anything resembling redundancy. On the contrary it's very strict and precise information and in a technical category to boot (which can be turned off).Last modified on 2018-06-29 at 22:23
|#1256 by maggierobot|
2018-06-30 at 01:00
|@1250: as someone who uses the "yaoi" tag to look for VNs, I would like that tag rename as well. I know by now that it's used for "games that have at least one scene with male on male content", but looking at the name alone most people actually looking for BL games (and not trying to blacklist the tag) would think it's talking about the genre. But... it's not. We don't have a tag for the genre, what makes searching for it a long work of removing several tags from the search (like trap protagonist, trap heroine, cross dressing) and even so something slips through.|
My suggestion is to rename it to "Man with Man Sex" or something along these lines? (I'm not good in coming up with names) Not every game tagged with "yaoi" have strictly gay characters, some only have weird bullying rape scenes, so "Male Homosexuality" isn't the best to describe it I guess. Bara can be moved as a child tag of it after the rename just fine. No retagging involved.
Now for Boys Love, that'll suddenly vanish with the rename, maybe just rename "Boys Love Only" to just "Boys Love" as having both is somewhat redundant, since 99% of BL games are "BL only" (and the ones that aren't "BL only" can be tagged with "Both Male and Female Love Interest" and it'll be easy to understand). Just put "yaoi" as the alias (if "yaoi" were the tag name, it'll create some mistagging in the future, I think this way lessen the problems and everyone should understand what Boys Love stands for anyway) and downvote the otokonoko games that are in the "BL only" tag, since they shouldn't be there in the first place.
|#1257 by seniorblitz|
2018-07-01 at 00:39
|I actually have to agree with the above post, the tag is quiete missleading, like It still applies to VNs like Ren'ai Hakyoku Ukeoinin where most of the love interests are non-crossdressing males and cross-dressing seems to be more of a "kink" than anything, but with full blown trapges like Netorare Otoko no Ko ~Ore no Osananajimi no Mujaki na Otoko no Ko ga Masaka Sobou na Taiiku Kyoushi ni Yowami o Nigirarete Choukyou Sarete Itsu no Ma ni ka Kairaku ni Oborete Aheahe Double Peace de Video Satsuei Sarete Yorokondeita Da Nante!!~, I don't think so, specially since "Yaoi" refers to gay media targeted at hetero/bi females and not gay sex in-general. I Think changing the name could solve this issue.Last modified on 2018-07-01 at 00:40|
|#1258 by leery|
2018-07-03 at 06:57
|No Hero(in)es probably shouldn't be filed under Heroine without also being filed under Hero.|
Or it could be moved up to Character...
The tag is kind of weird though.
There can be a number of reasons for this. Maybe the story simply doesn't feature any romance at all
That part is useful. I've often wondered how to tag characters in a game that aren't about relationships. Does everyone belong under Support Characters then? (There are a lot of Hero/Heroine tags that lack a Support Character version.)
But, well, there's No Romance Plot available too. It seems to have the same idea.
(OTOH, I see some random rape nukige such as v7096 tagged with it. I think that's missing the point of the tag.)
maybe the protagonist never settles down with anyone
That one doesn't make much sense. A lot of games (esp. older ones) don't have any specific 'heroine' endings. It's called a linear plot. I'd still tag the heroines that appear.
maybe it's just a short Nukige, that doesn't feature any characterization whatsoever, just the protagonist going through a bunch of random sex-scenes with a bunch of random partners
Eh, I'll give the tag author that one, since I've never seen one. Kind of weird though.
Note: the point of this tag is prevent the use of other hero / heroine tags on visual novels where they are simply not applicable.
The point makes sense, but the description not so much.Last modified on 2018-07-03 at 07:15
|#1259 by sospen-sop23|
2018-07-03 at 12:42
|#1260 by eacil|
2018-07-07 at 05:41
|I am glad to finally see comments from yaoi users who found that situation as weird as me. I was implicitly asking for Minah's opinion but it never came... :/|
Beliar, I asked for a renaming of every yaoi instance, dat simple. The post you are talking about was only to convince three people who were against that, can't blame me for this.
To migrate the bara tag under the renamed tag makes sense too.
Maggierobot made a fair point in not renaming it Male Homosexuality because we shouldn't make assumptions on the sexuality of characters but focus on the act. However, straight or not, raped or not, when you take it in the butt, it's (an) homosexual (act) so it's not a matter of sexual identity.
Yet, there is a problem. If yaoi is not sexual per se, this tag needs is (another misconception) and need to be, non sexual male homosexuality (for fuck's sake, isn't there a short word for male homosexuality which is not an insult??? you bet everybody wants to distort yaoi for that jeez...) or flirting using the Shounen Ai tag. Of course, we are using Shounen Ai in the wrong sense considering that I believe it was overtaken by Yaoi/June/BL terms when Shounen Ai was too much linked to pederasty (and naturally merged into shotacon > so you have that anthology of gay Otokonoko/Shotacon which title is a reference to the inspirational eponymous work of Inagaki Taruho, "Shounen Ai no Bigaku"~~~).
So, yes, Male on Male Sex instead of Yaoi. And Male Romance/Masculine Romance instead of Shounen Ai.
Now, I am against the use of Yaoi or BL or whatever genre for tags or even alias the moment it uses demographics. Yes, I am against Bara too. I explain: demography is not objective, it's the opposite of objectivity. It's an editorial target. Even if Yaoi or Otokonoko weren't, now they are with mangashi featuring them. You don't say this anime is a Shounen Anime, it doesn't make sense unless maybe the anime is an adaptation of a genuine Shounen Manga. Of course, it can make sense to refers to "Shounen" when talking about an anime if it is using big fat stereotypes and there is some point in using the term in a conversation but that's still a loose conversational use and the moment someone will ask you to define Shounen Anime you will be in deep shit.
Demography is defined by publishers and it's already very questionable. Something like MPD Psycho is a Shounen Manga but everybody agrees that it fits the Seinen category better considering its violence. They are in fact not defining, apart from forbidding contents like violence or sex for a kid's audience, they just try to be based on experience and preconceptions and can be very homogenizing and alienating. It's statistics based on surveys (sic) which reveal if they are true or not. Who never heard of an artist surprised by his own public?
Like for anime, visual novels don't have such entities. Demography by sex looks easier to guess than demography by age but you can see that the boundaries between Yaoi and Otokonoko are thin. I don't know if there is a lot of men drawing Yaoi but I know it's not uncommon to see women drawing Otokonoko (you just need to draw shota). If you think you can't target outside of your own gender.
Anyway, the point of my demonstration is that when the content is the same, even if it has intrinsic rules and aesthetic, demography is an impossible and not determining criterion to draw rigorous categories, and should certainly not be left to the appreciation of the random who votes whatever fits his desire. If it was a trait, it would be different.
Now, I understand the need to have separate tags for Bara, Otokonoko and BL. That would be neat because it's annoying to have to filter Bara and Otokonoko Heroine. The only way I found to define those three categories after what I said is to refer to official stances like looking at the ジャンル/genre field or store's tags but we all know that's not gonna happen. I believe it works with doujinshi.org. Bots are importing store's tags. There is unfortunately no otokonoko tag in this website so I could only check Bara.
Unfortunately, I have no idea how to replace the Bara tag without much inconvenience for everyone. Maybe it would be by adding a new character type aka Bara Character, the same way we have Trap Heroine***. I have no problem that the genre is indirectly defined by character feature. It is objective. It's why lolita are better defined by body type than age. This way, you can spot borderline objects. When you use demographics, you are bound to be stuck with stereotypes and I wouldn't have discovered that Marine Heart has interesting stuff.
Male on Male Sex < Yaoi
Gay Shotacon < Yaoi Shotacon
Male on Male Rape < Yaoi Rape
Male NTR/Male on Male NTR? < Yaoi NTR lol
Bara < discuss
Male Romance/Masculine Romance < Shounen Ai
Male Romance Only < Boys Love Only
What did I forget?
Yeah, that wall of text just for those small ridiculous changes...............
*** Trap (sic) stuff should stop being under Cross-dressing. Just move this stuff under Gender Bending with a global Otokonoko umbrella.
Otokonoko is not defined by crossdressing. Maybe it was originally but things have changed a lot. Otokonoko is (now) a synonym of effeminate men (from a male point of view). Period. 1/3 of this recent doujin is sex in boy's uniform. Nagi Ichi draws mangas with boys who don't crossdress. What about when they are completely naked?
People who are telling you that otokonoko are all girls inside is total bullshit and projection. You have doujins where homosexuality is recognized and not hidden behind "I am a girl inside" and the word "homo" being used. I mean, nothing is cast in stone except the fact that the boys are effeminate to the point it can appeal to heterosexual men. Playing with gender is the base of this kink. The irony is that real Japanese otokonoko can be heterosexual, they just crossdress for various reasons (ex: pressure relief). It's not defined by inner sexuality/gender/whatever.Last modified on 2018-07-07 at 06:44
|#1261 by dk382|
2018-07-07 at 06:01
|I personally side with people who don't think otokonoko content should be classified as "yaoi," but more generally, I'm in favor of whatever the yaoi and otokonoko fandoms themselves are in favor of. That's how the tags would be at its most useful.Last modified on 2018-07-07 at 06:07|
|#1262 by minah|
2018-07-07 at 08:11
|I really don't have strong feelings about it... I think in Western fandom, "yaoi" is used pretty broadly to describe gay romance in general, not just a particular aesthetic aimed towards straight women, but I don't think there's a problem with renaming the tag.|
I don't like "Male Romance/Masculine Romance" as a tag name, though; it sounds more like "romance geared towards a male audience" than "romance between males." "BxB Romance" would be more clear if people are familiar with that abbreviation.
Regarding a "Bara Hero" tag, that's basically Muscular Hero.
You're more familiar with otoko no ko fandom than I am, so I'll take your word on that part.
|#1263 by eacil|
2018-07-07 at 08:27
|What about B-Bromance?|
|#1264 by minah|
2018-07-07 at 10:46
|Boy x Boy =P|
|#1265 by kiru|
2018-07-07 at 11:31
|For bromance you just use Bara.|
|#1266 by maggierobot|
2018-07-07 at 16:55
|@1260: I suggested to divide it by genre in a way to separate Bara from BL, but you do make a good point that it would be highly subjective and it'll probably end with a lot of things tagged as both. So yeah, nevermind my idea.|
For the time being, I guess we have to use the Muscular Hero idea for "Bara Hero" like minah suggested, since I don't really know another way to handle it without going into genre and demography.
So just to show my support to the idea, I also vote for those changes suggested:
- "Yaoi" to "Male on Male Sex";
- "Yaoi Shotacon" to "Gay Shotacon";
- "Yaoi Rape" to "Male on Male Rape";
- "Yaoi NTR" to "Male NTR";
- "Shounen Ai" to "Boy x Boy Romance";
- Moving Otokonoko related tags out of "Cross dressing", maybe creating a "Otokonoko" tag to put them under it.
|#1267 by thewayfarer|
2018-07-08 at 11:20
|I think the Swimsuit Cosplay I suggested may cause some misunderstanding. Especially the second paragraph I written. Though I *am* going to say there are some (nukige) visual novels in the database with Swimsuit cosplays, people may tend to mix this tag up with games that have a high emphasis on swimsuits, especially when the swimsuits themselves are used what they're supposed to be used for: Outdoors, beaches, and swimming.|
I request Swimsuit Cosplay to be scrapped. They can just look up a 3-rated Heroine with Swimsuits/Hero with Swimsuits if they want some. (Hopefully.) Any objections?Last modified on 2018-07-08 at 11:20
|#1268 by leery|
2018-07-08 at 14:42
|Why not just have a Swimsuit Fetish tag?|
The Hero(ine) with Swimsuits or Spats or Buruma or... well, half of g854 could be replaced with 'xxx Fetish' tags
I hate those tags.
|#1269 by leery|
2018-07-09 at 07:04
|I wonder whether Asexual Protagonist should be reconsidered.|
It has been used ~125 times, and 60 % of those are negative votes for v1474, v93, and v5154.
In the end, only 13 games have the tag.
|#1270 by thewayfarer|
2018-07-09 at 09:34
"Fetish" is kinda a strong word there. IMO.
|#1271 by kiru|
2018-07-09 at 09:48
|Fetish implies several things that the current way doesn't. As such, that shouldn't just be changed.|
|#1272 by leery|
2018-07-09 at 13:20
|It is a strong word. And I didn't ask for a rename.|
The tags in that category ought to be re-thought. They may need a delete and a re-create. And possibly a move to the Sexual Content tree.
I reckon it's at least five years too late for that though.
Also, Heroine with Thigh-highs alias: Kneesocks and ニーソ
(Not that I care for that tag.)
|#1273 by kominarachromer|
2018-07-10 at 21:44
|Protagonist-organised Netorare should have Netorase as an alias.|
|#1274 by rastagong|
2018-07-11 at 16:20
I'd like to suggest the addition of a Sea or Ocean tag category, to be filed under Setting > Scene, much like the School category.
Given the existence of tags like Desert and Forest, which describe broad settings common both in real life and in fiction, it would be pretty logical to have a Sea/Ocean category too.
I also think that a great number of VNs could fall under this new category.
I know the Island, Beach, Ship, Submarine and Resort tags already exist, but they're actually too specific for VNs which just happen to feature the sea more generally.
Therefore, it would make sense to file all these tags under Sea/Ocean. This way:
* VNs with highly specific settings could be tagged under highly specific tags like Island, Beach and Ship, but more generalist settings could simply be tagged as Sea/Ocean. This will be more accurate in terms of cataloguing.
* Both broad and highly specific sea-related settings will easily be found by browsing the Sea/Ocean category.
* The Scene category will be somewhat clearer, since a bunch of individual tags will now be found under a single parent category.
* (Resort is to remain under Hotel, though.)
That's it! Hope it sounds useful.
I really do think that a Sea/Ocean category could help improve readability and accuracy overall.Last modified on 2018-07-11 at 16:22
|#1275 by leery|
2018-07-12 at 06:11
|Holiday Cottage: Add alias 'Mountain Cabin' and/or 'Mountain Lodge'. And amend its description to read "often near a beach or on a mountain."|
Oh wait, that one isn't approved yet. Happy six-month anniversary, dear tag.Last modified on 2018-07-12 at 06:39
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