Tags suggestions/fixes

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#1476 by saluki
2018-10-03 at 20:02
You do have a point there, so I added those names as aliases. Now if you search for girl x girl or gxg, lesbian sex will come up.
Thank you! Though at the risk of exposing my OCD, I have to beg for making Girl x Girl Sex and Boy x Boy Sex the main tags. This goes for Lesbian/Male on Male Rape and NTR too. "Lesbian" vs "Male on Male" just trigger my autism. I blame the fact that "gay" is gender-neutral.


And I disagree with the distinction being useless.
I worded that badly. What I meant is that we need an umbrella tag for all male homo stuff, or else there will be needless amount of Bara Rape/Bara NTR/Gay Shotacon Rape/etc. The Bara tag itself is indeed useful.

What you are suggesting would basically mandate deleting the current tag.
Oh no, just an alias to GxB would do. I can go over the tag afterwards to remove GxB from games where there's no romance or there's only yuri.

Generally our policy is not adding tags and traits that are basically the default for VNs. Hence why we don't have "Japanese Heroine", "Vaginal Sex" or "Bishoujo Games". What ends up happening with these tags, is that a LOT of times people will simply forget to apply them, since they are so ubiquitous. Considering that when you search for something, you only see the titles, not the VN pages, you would just get (assuming that every relevant VN would be tagged) ~20 000 titles listed. Which, btw, wouldn't even be true, because there are 50 items on a page and the pages cut off after page 100 everywhere in the database, maxing the possible viewable results at 5 000. As such, you couldn't even list 3/4 of the result, making this tag utterly pointless. Not to mention, by people forgetting to apply it, the search engine might not even show it.
Good point. But I think it's just a matter of habit that can be introduced. Male Protagonist is also ubiquitous (>80% of JVNs) yet we have diligently tagged it on everything. It's better late than never. As mentioned, BxG's usefulness will come once we start to get swarmed with GxB and BxB as the EVN scene keeps growing.

This is different to other kinds of ubiquitous tags, such as ADV. Nobody wants to just read ADV instead of NVL - these tags are merely there in case somebody wants to search those traits in a VN they forgot the name. On the other hand, users often need to see a particular gender, hence the stronger need for Male/Female Protagonist, and Bishoujo/Otome/Yuri/Yaoi distinction.

I admit BxG not a problem for now. But if my years of experience being tag gardener on Danbooru taught me anything, it's that uniformed and detailed tags always bring in long term benefits with zero downside.
#1477 by warfoki
2018-10-03 at 21:22
Thank you! Though at the risk of exposing my OCD, I have to beg for making Girl x Girl Sex and Boy x Boy Sex the main tags. This goes for Lesbian/Male on Male Rape and NTR too. "Lesbian" vs "Male on Male" just trigger my autism. I blame the fact that "gay" is gender-neutral.

Sorry, but no. I consider the current names to be better, as both of them are very clear in their meaning and all-encompassing. Boy x Boy and Girl x Girl has the connotation that they refer to younger people. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't refer to a 40-something adult man as "boy". They are good for the other tags, as we lack better, more practical alternatives, but here we don't.

Oh no, just an alias to GxB would do. I can go over the tag afterwards to remove GxB from games where there's no romance or there's only yuri.

Yeah, that's a no. First of all, manually combing through 2000 titles is not feasible in a reliable manner. So if we make any change in the tag, it can, at most broaden its meaning, not change or narrow it, as that would cause misapplications retroactively, and I'd like to avoid that like the plague. Plus GxB isn't the same as Otome games as we pointed it out earlier. There's a reason why Otome Game is a child trait for Female Protagonist and not an alias. There are plenty of GxB stuff out there that are not Otome games, and there are GxG VNs that are. In fact, if you make a search for Female Protagonist while excuding Otome Games and Lesbian Sex, you will literally find thousands of VNs. So, no, you are asking a complete change of the tag, for which I see absolutely no reason. If you just want to search for non-yuri female protagonist stuff, then search for Female Protagonist and exclude Yuri, there, done.

Good point. But I think it's just a matter of habit that can be introduced. Male Protagonist is also ubiquitous (>80% of JVNs) yet we have diligently tagged it on everything. It's better late than never. As mentioned, BxG's usefulness will come once we start to get swarmed with GxB and BxB as the EVN scene keeps growing.

As of now, the volume of western releases is insignificancy to the volume of Japanese releases. When and if that changes, this might worth consideration. Not now though.
#1478 by savagetiger
2018-10-03 at 21:23
There shouldn't be any otome games that only have yuri/girls love, that goes against the basic definition of the genre and is probably something started by stupid EOP's.
And even if it's only friendship if the guys have definite endings the tag still applies.
#1479 by warfoki
2018-10-03 at 21:28
Well, we got 4 VNs tagged with Homosexual Protagonist and Otome Game and 10 with Lesbian Sex and Otome Game. And even even if they are all mistagged, the rest of my points still stand and are good enough not to change the tag.Last modified on 2018-10-03 at 21:28
#1480 by kominarachromer
2018-10-03 at 21:40
This is, like the rest of my complaints, extremely pedantic, but Hard Science Fiction seems to be horribly misapplied.

Hard sci-fi is defined by an almost slavish devotion to scientific detail and accuracy, and most of the titles with the tag don't reflect that. The userbase seems to think that anything that isn't straight up science fantasy is automatically "hard sci-fi". I can tell you right now that anything with time travel and/or psychic powers is not hard sci-fi under any definition, no matter how many vague science-y terms the writer tries to use to justify it. The tag isn't completely useless; the works of Kojima Hideo would count, and I suppose you could stretch the definition to allow Planetarian ~Chiisana Hoshi no Yume~ and even possibly Kono Yo no Hate de Koi o Utau Shoujo YU-NO (though that would certainly be a stretch), but the fact that titles like Muv-Luv Alternative or Ever17 -The Out of Infinity- are included is a mockery of the very concept of hard sci-fi and makes the tag completely useless.
#1481 by savagetiger
2018-10-03 at 21:45
@1479
All those games are either choice of male/female protagonist and male or female love interests, probably shouldn't be homo though. Or games with a single lez route in an otherwise normal otome.
#1482 by warfoki
2018-10-03 at 21:48
@1480: Yeah, the lackluster definition probably doesn't help either. Basically people tagged everything with it that was closer to realism than Star Wars...
#1483 by lunaterra
2018-10-03 at 21:50
I've played or own all the games that are tagged with both otome game and homosexual protagonist. Seven Kingdoms: The Princess Problem, //TODO: today, and Women of Xal all let you define the protagonist's sexuality to determine which LIs will be available to you. Solstice has two protagonists and one of them is a gay man.
#1484 by sakurakoi
2018-10-03 at 21:58
^heck, even I know what hard sci-fi is despite finding it utterly boring... is what I can not really say, I merely dislike infodumps and such "filler" which is not exciting to read at all. If I want to read about science I read Wikipedia! (which I do probably too often)

infodumps ofc do not mean automatically hard science, either it is history/world building gone on for too long or "self science", you know that science which also far-X-wing engage in.

Obviously I will keep quiet about the Philosophy tag which similarly mocks this actually great subject, if it was not for "modern ideas" (BS).
"It's only Philosophy if it hits you straight in the face with it, like Nakige which are not just like any mix of Comedy&Drama but both must be EXTREME"~

Oh damn, welp, I meant to but I felt so triggered, please excuse my emotional outburst, it's "that day" again

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't refer to a 40-something adult man as "boy"
well, I don't know about you, but I wouldn't refer to a 40-something adult woman as "girl"~

regarding "Lesbian Otome"... well, the problem here sure is that it is not like we have here a Shounen, Seinen, Shoujo and Josei tags to arbitrarily label target audiences. Disregarding medium, both Otome works and those with "females adoring other females" (more or less, ranging from simple companionship to stalking) fall both under Shoujo... or the latter at least may be Shounen or Seinen, it's complicated and I am glad that we don't have these arbitrary labels here.
#1485 by warfoki
2018-10-03 at 22:03
well, I don't know about you, but I wouldn't refer to a 40-something adult woman as "girl"~

Uhm... my point exactly?
#1486 by leery
2018-10-11 at 15:02
I'm thinking of proposing a new tag:

Multiple Protagonists >> Group of Protagonists

This game does not have a single protagonist; instead, it follows a whole group of protagonists. This group is usually composed of 2-3 people, who for the purposes of the plot act and bicker together, at least most of the time. The story is not told from any particular protagonist's point of view.

The group is usually all-female. I've run across a few of these, esp. in the PC98 world. Angie is perhaps the most well-known.

Does anyone recognise this description and perhaps offer suggestions for improving it? Or know more games where this happens?

Or does the tagging system already have something that covers the situation?
#1487 by seniorblitz
2018-10-11 at 16:29
We Know The Devil fits your desc. Also Corpse Party somewhat since some chapters have two or more characters as the single pov.Last modified on 2018-10-11 at 16:32
#1488 by leery
2018-10-12 at 05:04
I'm not familiar with either of those games, and it's hard to get a good grip on it from vndb data alone. How many protagonists are we talking about?
#1489 by seniorblitz
2018-10-12 at 13:29
A group of 3 for WKTD and 4 main protagonists that are split into groups 'cause of the setting.
#1490 by kiru
2018-10-12 at 17:17
Don't know how useful that would be, but keep in mind that multiple protagonists implies that there are indeed multiple protagonists. When there are no protagonists, it'd be a child-tag of that. So far it kinda sounds like this idea shouldn't be a child tag of multiple protagonists.
#1491 by kominarachromer
2018-10-12 at 20:04
I mentioned some of these in #1433, but here are some tags that I think should be removed or changed:

Environmentalism - Added 7 years ago, and only has two instances. It could have much broader application, but it just doesn't seem like a theme too many VNs explore.
Corruption - Should be renamed to something along the lines of "Political Corruption" or "Corruption of an Organization" and changed to a child tag of Intrigue. I think a lot of users don't get the difference between it and Corruption of Characters.
Rats and Primates - Both created years ago, and they have 1 and 2 instances respectively. We don't need tags for every single type of animal in existence.
Existential Crisis - Should this really be under Mystery?
Interruptions - Far too specific and underutilized.
Fruits - I'm not sure about this one, but it also seems too specific. Maybe it has its uses, though.
Breaking the Fourth Wall - Should be a child tag of Metafiction
Naval Warfare - Only a single instance, and arguably too specific.
American Football - No application.
Curling - Again, two instances over eight years. Way too specific.
Denpa - I'm in two minds about this one. On one hand, I like a lot of titles tagged with it. On the other hand, the description is vague as fuck, doesn't really encapsulate the genre, and it's extremely misapplied. Honestly, this is basically the same as having a tag for "chuunige" or "moege"; it's too subjective and esoteric to really be useful.
Modifications - The description is sort of strange. Remove the "supports" part, and you're golden.
Head-Only Sprites - Three years, one instance.
Free Camera - Two years, one instance.
Facial Hair Option - Too specific. Only three instances.
Motion Controls - Three of the four instances are in the same series, and is again too specific and rare to really be useful.
Roguelike - Description and arguably name should be changed. Roguelikes are also characterized by permadeath, which most VNs don't have for obvious reasons, and the part about gameplay turns doesn't apply to several of the instances.
Xonix Game - 5 instances, all in the same series, and would be better suited by a description note.
Arkanoid Game - See above.
In-Game Tutorial - Too broad and underapplied. Most hybrids have at least basic instructions on how to play. The tag should at least get a rewritten description so that games that give only basic gameplay pointers like Baldrhead ~Busou Kin'yuu Gaiden~ and Rance 01 - Hikari o Motomete - aren't included.
NVL - Remove the third paragraph, since it's now covered by Brief NVL Scenes.
Yaoi Game Jam and Yuri Game Jam - Should be child tags of Boy x Boy Romance and Girl x Girl Romance respectively.
Mute Support Character - One instance.
Combat Capable Friends - Should be under Other Elements.
Gaijin Protagonist - Applies too broadly to titles developed outside of Japan. If it's kept in, the alias and title should be switched, so that the tag database is consistent with the eradication of "weeaboo" terms.
Pimp/Madam Protagonist - Two instances.
Protagonist with Regenerative Hymen - Three instances.
Protagonists Appearance - Missing an apostrophe.
Protagonists Role/Vocation - See above.
Donkan Protagonist - Another otaku term.
Oyaji Hero - Title should be swapped with one of the tag aliases, for further consistency.
Seiyuu Hero and Seiyuu Heroine - See above.
Shinobi Hero and Kunoichi Heroine - Again, a Japanese term that most Westerners wouldn't recognize. Also inconsistent with Ninja Protagonist.
Onmyouji Hero, Onmyouji Heroine, and Onmyouji Protagonist - Should arguably be changed to exorcist, for reasons I've already laid out in great detail.
Senpai Hero, Senpai Heroine, Kouhai Hero, and Kouhai Heroine - Again, switch the name and the alias.
Okama Hero - Maybe change to Flamboyant Hero?
Osananajimi Hero, Osananajimi Heroine, and Osananajimi Support Character - I still don't understand why Yaoi and Yuri were singled out for special treatment...
Mangaka Protagonist, Mangaka Heroine, and Mangaka Hero - I think you're starting to get the point by now.
Discipline Committee Member Hero - Too rare.
Hero with Visible Underwear - Too specific.
Chikan, Chikan Protagonist, Chikan Heroine, and Consensual Chikan - Japanese term blah blah blah you get the rest.
Messiah Heroine - Too rare.
Superheroine - I appreciate the name, but I think that it's too vague; someone could think that it's applicable to a game with superheroines that aren't actually love interests. Maybe it should be changed to Superpowered Heroine.
Yamato Nadeshiko - Should have heroine added to the end of the name.
Imouto-type Heroine, Musume-type Heroine, and Oneesan-type Heroine - More Japanese names? Really?
Heroine with Baby Complex - Underapplied, too specific, etc.
Skinny Heroine - Underweight should be the tag title; nearly every bishoujo game on the database has "skinny" heroines.
Book Heroine - Title should be more specific.
Japanophile Heroine - Underapplied.
Supermarket - Too specific and underapplied.
Kantai Collection - Too specific. We don't need tags for every type of fan-fiction out there.
Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha - See above. Doubly strange because Nanoha is a spinoff of an eroge.
Future China - Too rare, and possibly underapplied.
Muromachi Era - Too specific.
USSR - Too specific.
20th Century - Not every decade needs a tag. 80's and 90's are particularly weird, since VNs made in that era with a contemporaneous setting technically fall under the tag definition. A description edit might be in order for those two.
Modern Day Shikoku and Modern Day Hokkaido - Too specific.
Akihabara and Shibuya - Should be changed to Modern Day Akihabara and Modern Day Shibuya.
Body Swapping - Not necessarily a fantasy tag.
Alternate Dimensions and Time Travel - Not necessarily sci-fi tags.
Wormhole Sex - Too specific.
Gay Shotacon - Why was Yuri Lolicon denied and this accepted?
Uncle/Nephew Incest - Arguably too rare.
Vore - The heroine/protagonist part is unnecessary, and the description should mention somewhere the fetishization of the act. Otherwise, the tag could technically apply to any VN where a character gets eaten at some point, which isn't very useful.
Elopement - Underapplied.Last modified on 2018-10-12 at 20:05
#1492 by harleyquin
2018-10-13 at 05:22
From the Japanese wiki on roguelikes:

ローグライクゲームの全てが以下の要素を兼ね備えているわけではなく、同じ要素でもゲーム毎に目指す方向性により、様々なアレンジが加えられている。

Roguelike games do not necessarily include all of the elements traditionally attributed to games of this genre. Games can share elements of the genre and still be considered part of the genre (most notably the removal of the perma-death restriction).

From the JP wiki, I'd argue against changing the roguelike description trait since apart from the perma-death feature everything else traditionally associated with games of the genre remains the same.
#1493 by harleyquin
2018-10-13 at 05:24
For in-game tutorial, I don't know about splitting the trait definition further. Yes some games have very detailed tutorials covering mechanics, while others simply give a control sheet and a basic guide on how to progress. Further subdividing the trait might introduce redundancy, but that's just my opinion.
#1494 by harleyquin
2018-10-13 at 05:28
Ninja = 忍者. Shinobi = 忍. It's essentially the same concept but referred to in two different ways.

I think the split between exorcist and Onmyouji should remain, because of the cultural origins of both and the slightly different means they achieve the same goals.

Yamato Nadeshiko only ever refers to females, so adding heroine to the end is the epitome of redundancy.

Muromachi era isn't really too specific when it's the official name for the Japanese Warring States era. Virtually every game featuring Oda Nobunaga et al is set in this era or is inspired by it.
#1495 by savagetiger
2018-10-13 at 05:30
Agree~ with most of that, but
An Onmyouji is different from the kind of western priest you would usually think of when hearing Exorcist.
Chikan is a specific fetish kind of groping though. So I don't think changing the main names of those to Molester/Groper whatever really fits.
Discipline Committee Member Hero - needs Morals Committee Member and Fuukiiin/風紀委員 as an alias, for the longest time I didn't realize that Discipline Committee was the more usual translation.
#1496 by kominarachromer
2018-10-13 at 06:00
Most of the VN hybrids seem to be built in the Mystery Dungeon style, which does fit under most non-purist definitions of roguelike, My problem is more with titles like Win The Game, which share very little with traditional roguelikes besides randomly generated areas.

I was suggesting a tag description edit, not a split. As of right now, the tag is too broad: pretty much any hybrid made after 2005 has something qualifying it. I think a bit more specificity would be nice.

I’m a bit out-of-date on my Japanese history, but shouldn’t Sengoku Period be a child tag of Muromachi Era in that case?

I might have been a bit hasty with the Onmyouji tags, though it wouldn’t be the first time nuance was lost in tag “Westernization” (looking at you, Cross-dressing Hero). Even if it is a more obscure term, it might be good to keep it in anyway.

Currently, there’s two Yamato Nadeshiko tags; Yamato Nadeshiko Protagonist and Yamato Nadeshiko. I think the title of Yamato Nadeshiko should be changed to be more clear that it’s a heroine tag and not a side character tag. Besides, there’s already several heroine tags that are gender exclusive yet still have “Heroine” appended, like Tomboy Heroine or Bokukko Heroine.

The Chikan tag descriptions refer to it as frotteurism. I don’t see why that can’t be the tag name.
#1497 by harleyquin
2018-10-13 at 06:21
My mistake, I misread Muromachi for Azuchi-Momoyama. The latter is the official name for the Warring States, while the Muromachi period precedes the Warring States with the Ashikaga Shogunate in charge. Whether Muromachi is too specific is up to the administrators to decide, it definitely cannot subsume Warring States as a child trait since the periods are distinct.

Yamato Nadeshiko relates to personality, so I see no reason why the Protagonist and Heroine tags should be rolled into one. After all, there's no rule that says Protagonists have to be always male.

Between "Chikan" and "Frotteurism", I recognise the first but have to look up the second. Is there really a necessity to get rid of the tag because it's "weeaboo"?
#1498 by eacil
2018-10-13 at 07:31
Where did you find that there was an effort for "the eradication of "weeaboo" terms"? Yaoi was a bad name for specific reasons. It led to the fall of Yuri (I didn't ask for that, mind you) as main title for... symmetry? Because Yuri doesn't refer to sex? (I didn't follow.)
That's pretty much all.
No need to touch chikan or osananajimi. Nothing wrong with otaku terms when they are correctly used. Frotteurism, underclassman, really? This is getting ridiculous.

Also, some tags are part of a set. Of course every value will not be used with the same frequency than the others. They bother nobody and at least the set is complete (like that you know writers don't like the Muromachi Era). You don't tag 80' and 90' just because of contemporaneousness, you need to know it is set during this period and if it is, contemporaneousness or not, it should be tagged. And yes we need 20', 40', 50' because they are tasty as fuck. Btw we need a 30' tag.
It's a little tricky because decades are overlapping Japanese eras but both are necessary.
#1499 by harleyquin
2018-10-13 at 07:38
Where did you find that there was an effort for "the eradication of "weeaboo" terms"?

Ask #1491.

Gaijin Protagonist - Applies too broadly to titles developed outside of Japan. If it's kept in, the alias and title should be switched, so that the tag database is consistent with the eradication of "weeaboo" terms.

Chikan, Chikan Protagonist, Chikan Heroine, and Consensual Chikan - Japanese term blah blah blah you get the rest.
#1500 by ryanxbr
2018-10-13 at 10:23
Yaoi was a bad name for specific reasons. It led to the fall of Yuri (I didn't ask for that, mind you) as main title for... symmetry? Because Yuri doesn't refer to sex? (I didn't follow.)

Wait, Yuri doesn't refer to sex? Did someone go to the JP Wiki again? Okay, you didn't follow, but you also did the same for Yaoi, with a post that demonstrate how "scholarly" you were, teaching that Yaoi has a different meaning in Japan, and how Westerners are ignorant.

Gaijin Protagonist - Applies too broadly to titles developed outside of Japan. If it's kept in, the alias and title should be switched, so that the tag database is consistent with the eradication of "weeaboo" terms.

Seriously, this already got ridiculous and must STOP! This type of discussion are needless and annoying. VNDB now wants to eradicate well-know terms of the otaku community because they are "Weeaboo". I dare to say that some Tags like Shoujo-Ai and Shounen-Ai (those that work perfectly and have a well-known meaning in the community) have only been changed (To ambiguous terms... Female/Male Romance, cof cof) because of the "original offensive meaning" that almost nobody here even cares about it!

What's next now? Let's also change Tsundere, lolicon, Netorare, etc? (Sorry for some english mistakes)

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