|#1501 by beliar|
2018-10-13 at 12:48
|See Eacil's answer above. No one (except seemingly for kominarachromer) wants to eradicate otaku terms. Scroll back a dozen or so pages and you can read the discussion regarding Yaoi and why it was eventually changed. Yuri fell down due to symmetry, as if Yaoi is changed so Yuri must be too.|
Majority, if not all the otaku terms in the above list by kominarachromer are completely ok and there is noreason to do anything about them.
To ambiguous terms... Female/Male RomanceThat has been changed again to less ambiguous terms.
What I do agree with is that Body Swapping can fall under science fiction and Alternate Dimensions/Time Travel can also fall under fantasy. One possible solution is creating a meta-tag "Speculative Fiction" (alias Fantastique), move Fantasy, Science Fiction and Horror under it and then move Body Swapping, Alternate Dimensions, Time Travel directly under it as well. I wonder what people would think about that...Last modified on 2018-10-13 at 13:17
|#1502 by warfoki|
2018-10-13 at 14:14
|#1490 - Whoa, that's a list... I want to do a cleanup on teh tag section anyway, so let's go through this.|
Environmentalism - While it is heavily underused, it's harmless and a generic enough of a theme that there could be easily VNs in the db where it would apply, just nobody remembered the tag existing. See no harm in keeping it.
Organised Corruption - You do have a point there. Renamed it and added Political Corruption as an alias.
Rats - Deleted.
Primates - I'll keep this one. It has three VNs tagged, which is just enough for inclusion and it's a lot less specific than "rats" so it has potential to be used more. Not a lot more, but enough to avoid deletion in my opinion.
Existential Crisis - No, probably not. But honestly the entire trait structure under Theme is a bloody mess and in the need of fixing on a systematic level. I'll get on that once I have a bit more time.
Interruptions - Underutilized and pointless. Don't forget pointless. This was one those ancient tags that were added back when everything was just randomly added.
Fruits - Harmless and has been used enough to keep it, so I'll do just that.
Breaking the Fourth Wall - Fixed.
Naval Warfare - I think it's a quite reasonable tag actually. Obvious what it's about and not too specific either. Yes, it doesn't really fit into the generic high school slice of life that permeates VNs, but that doesn't necessarily makes it bad. I'd say we keep it for now.
American Football - Deleted. Usually I'd keep stuff like this on the notion that why delete it, when it's just going to be readded when a someone finds a couple VNs about it, but no use in over 2 years makes that unlikely.
Curling - Wov, curling has two Japanese VNs dedicated while American Football has none. Kinda surprising. Still, when it comes to specific sport and other clearly defined tags, I tend to be very lenient. It helps sorting what kinds of sports-focused VNs exist, if someone is interested in that. And with sports in general being interesting to a LOT of people it much more likely that someone would be interested in tags like that, then say Rats.
Denpa - I... honestly have no idea what this originally meant if the description is not accurate. I leave this one here to be discussed by people who have a clue.
Modifications - I'm not sure about this one either. Does this tag means that these games are designed to be easily moddable by the users (eg. Skyrim or Slave Maker 3.5) or does it just means that it has fanmade content patches, even if said fans essentially has to crack the game and brute-force their content in. Either way, it needs a better name.
Head-Only Sprites - Deleted.
Free Camera - By the nature of VNs this is understandably a very rare feature (what's the point of free camera movement when you only have a static background and character sprites placed over it), but I'm not sure about deleting it still. it's a clearly defined feature that can be used and cannot be mistaken for something else.
Facial Hair Option - 3 is enough to be included for sure, if the tag wasn't tailor made for those three entries and has the potential to be used on more titles.
Motion Controls - I would expect alternative control methods like this to be more popular as technology advances. The main reason why a lot of these methods failed in the past is because the motion tracking was nowhere near accurate enough and a pain to use. Plus, see my reasoning above.
Roguelike - Dunno, never much cared for the genre. I leave this up to the people in this thread to discuss.
Xonix Game & Arkanoid Game - I actually remember seeing more VNs with puzzles like these in the past. I just never realized that these puzzle types have specific names to them. Keeping it for now.
In-Game Tutorial - I'm torn on this one. On one hand you are right in that it is very generic, but on the other if I make the description more specific without modifying the title, it could potentially misused.
NVL - No, because using both types doesn't necessarily mean that the NVL parts are brief. It possible that the two presentation types are used more or less equally, in which case the last line applies.
Yaoi Game Jam & Yuri Game Jam - Fixed.
Mute Support Character - Someone else already deleted it and I agree with that.
Combat Capable Friends - Could be under theme as well, but it fits where it is right now too. Also, as I said things under Theme needs to be reorganised anyway, so I'll get on that at some point when I have more time.
Gaijin Protagonist - No. Majority of the VNs are made in Japan and takes the Japanese culture and society as a basis. So it's fine as is. Also, we are not purging "weeb" terminology, #1498 already explained the changes that happened. And the trap tags are going to get rolled back. In fact I might just get to it today.
Pimp/Madam Protagonist - With how compatible this tag is with nukiges, of which we have a tremendous amount and lot of them are undertagged, I'm sure there are a lot more than just one where this is applicable, it's just that nobody tagged them yet. So we are keeping this one.
Protagonist with Regenerative Hymen - This is a case of having mirror tags for heroines and protagonists. Heroine with Regenerative Hymen has a lot (lot more than I expected when I approved the tag way back) of instances, so it definitely stays. And if it stays, the mirror tag for protagonists will also stay.
Protagonist's Appearance & Protagonist's Role/Vocation - Someone else fixed these already.
Donkan Protagonist - As I've mentioned above "purging" weeb terms is not our intention, that your misconception. Especially for Japanese tropes like this that have no real English equivalent. Even if we would purge the 2weeb" terminology, this tag would be left as is for that reason.
Oyaji Hero - See above. In fact, see above for you next half a dozen suggestions.
Discipline Committee Member Hero & Heroine with Visible Panties - See the reasoning for Protagonist with Regenerative Hymen.
Messiah Heroine - Counterpart for Messiah Protagonist. Although I admit that one isn't all that often used either...
Superheroine - Ugh, a quick check of the tagged VNs shows that this has already been misused to hell and back exactly as you said. Gotta get through the list to see if the tag is even worth saving at this point...
Yamato Nadeshiko Heroine - Agreed and fixed.
Heroine with Baby Complex - Ehh, harmless enough and I can easily imagine more, untranslated and untagged VNs with this theme.
Underweight Heroine - Ehh, tomayto, tomahto.
Book Heroine - Well, last time I checked normal books don't have a gender, personality or boobs, all of which are necessary to be a heroine. :P So heroines like these to be specific magic books seems self evident to me.
Japanophile Heroine - See a number of my previous examples, has potential to be used, cannot be mistaken for something else and not overly specific or bizarre, so it can stay.
Supermarket - Agreed, but someone already removed it anyway.
Kantai Collection - Somebody removed it already, so there's that. I personally would have kept it, you seriously underestimate the amount of ero content made out of Kantai Collection, I'm about 200% sure that we have more than one VN with it. Maybe I later check it and restore it if I'm right. I can't be bothered right now...
Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha - Four instances are enough to keep it.
Future China, Muromachi Era & USSR - All perfectly fine tags, no need to remove any of them.
20th Century - And I disagree. In fact we really should add 30's...
Modern Day Shikoku & Modern Day Shikoku - Both of these are fine. Considerign that the vast majority of VNs take place in Japan, it's fine to add specific larger regions of the country separately.
Modern Day Akihabara & Modern Day Shibuya - Agreed and changed.
Body Swapping, Time Travel & Alternate Dimensions - Theme structure in general needs an overarching reorganization, so not dealing with these separately.
Wormhole Sex - It probably is, but it's an interesting enough scenario that some might search for it and it has enough VNs tagged to keep it around.
Gay Shotacon - You do have a point there. I reinstated Lesbian Lolicon for now.
Uncle/Nephew Incest - See the other "too rare" tags: the tag is fine, 3 instances are borderline enough and has potential for future use.
Vore - Removed the protagonist heroine part. The second paragraph clearly states that this is a sexual fetish.
Elopement - Yeah, but has potential to e used, yadda yadda, wrote this a lot already.
In general two main thing here:
1. We are not purging otaku terminology. That would be ridiculous.
2. You are putting way too much weight on how many times a tag is used. Yes, it's a factor in keeping or removing the tag, but far from the only factor. Just because it's only used a couple times, it doesn't make the tag automatically bad.Last modified on 2018-10-13 at 14:15
|#1503 by beliar|
2018-10-13 at 14:31
Naval Warfare - I think it's a quite reasonable tag actually. Obvious what it's about and not too specific either. Yes, it doesn't really fit into the generic high school slice of life that permeates VNs, but that doesn't necessarily makes it bad. I'd say we keep it for now.Ehem... I have already removed the tag before your list came up. Considering it only have one VN tagged in 2 years and naval combat being quite a specific event to happen within a VN, I don't really think we need it. However, if you disagree it can be restored. It's not like I feel strongly about this tag, but I would question if we really need tags that only have one VN attached to them...
|#1504 by sakurakoi|
2018-10-13 at 14:54
|Was the only entry for Naval Warfare this one? Sankai Ou no Yubiwa|
or perhaps is it the case, like often, that people simply do not know it exists so they ofc can not apply it even if it would.
So, at least for Pimp/Madam Protagonist I know another case and might as well add some tags/ask for what its worth since the routes in Sei Shoujo ~Seido Ikusei Gakuen~ I read are near if not exclusively told/thought out of the "heroines" perspective (and the routes are the main meat obviously i.e only prologue and endings, maybe a few scenes have the male protagonist).
With their PoV being much more present than his, I'd say that it is not just "Other Perspectives" but the Multiple Protagonists tag is weird anyway. If it was made clear that (if actually the case) protagonist must make choices, like hinted in Other Perspectives but contradicted the very same since one sure stays in their perspective for long enough... welp, I am a bit lost.
Perhaps Pimp/Madam Protagonist is also a bit difficult to apply since it does not entail training which is much more often the case in VNs while the prostitutes are not necessarily sold for money but utilized differently. I'd suggest to add that the sole requirement here is that a heroine is possibly made to engage in sexual activities with someone else for more than just sexual training/obedience or sexual excitement. Tsurumiku is one of those producer which have such protagonists which use their slaves, or sells 'em (for favors/human relations are because they are tired of them).Last modified on 2018-10-13 at 14:55
|#1505 by warfoki|
2018-10-13 at 15:05
|Well, my policy with tags and traits is mostly seeing if they have any use, if anyone might search for them. I have no issue removing Rats for example as I can't imagine many, if any, would specifically search for VNs where rats play a prominent role. It's not a theme, not a fetish, not a usual characteristic, just a totally random thing.|
On the other hand naval warfare is a theme that encompasses a lot of possible genres and themes in all over the media. If we would tag all kinds of media here, then we could apply this to anything from Pirates of the Caribbean to U-571. If we included books and all we would likely have hundreds of titles tagged, if not thousands. How many would we have for rats? Like the only thing I can think of right now is Ratatouille.
Now I know this is a visual novel database and the majority of VNs are Japanese nukiges or high-school slice of life stuff, neither of which has much to do with naval warfare. So it's not all that used. But I think VNs can and eventually will move past such a limited scope. Naval Warfare and a lot of other tags on that list can be used more in the future, as they are broad enough to encompass a lot of potential stories and themes, and yet clearly defined, so they won't be mistagged and most importantly, they are relevant in the sense that people might actually look for them.
I admit that a lot I just wrote cannot really by quantified and as such up to subjective interpretation, but still, this is the general guideline along which I've always accepted/denied non-sexual tags.
For example I'll bring back Naval Warfare, despite having only one VN under it, but I'll will propose the deletion of Chekhov's Gun once I sort out Theme, as it is utterly useless, even though it has more VNs under it. The number of times a tag is applied is not everything, but just a fraction of the whole picture in my opinion.
#1504 - The only VN for Naval Warfare is Kyonyuu Fantasy Gaiden 2.Last modified on 2018-10-13 at 15:07
|#1506 by sakurakoi|
2018-10-13 at 15:32
Well, my policy with tags and traits is mostly seeing if they have any use, if anyone might search for them.What about a policy which thinks of whether the tag describes something about a work is worth knowing? While I and many would not specifically search for Naval Warfare, I think many along me would think: That's, if present, a major selling point, it's interesting and worth knowing! Unlike Rats, tropes or (niche) literary devices which mostly would just be bloat.
#1504 - The only VN for Naval Warfare is Kyonyuu Fantasy Gaiden 2.I guess we can double the amount of VNs for the tag then~ (not that I ever played either but that is pretty much obvious)
|#1507 by warfoki|
2018-10-13 at 15:35
|It's part of my "policy", see "they are relevant in the sense that people might actually look for them."|
|#1508 by kominarachromer|
2018-10-13 at 15:42
|#1502 I seem to recall suggesting a tag with more than three applications and getting rejected...ah well.|
Here's a quote from the same blog post that the description is taken from:
It's hard to actually define a denpa game, except by naming other denpa games and leaving the interpretation up to the player.
That's part of the problem. Nearly every part of the definition that Asceai wrote is wrong.
Subgenre of horror eroge: In that case, then half the applications are misguided - since there are many that aren't eroge, and quite a few that aren't strictly horror.
Familiar people acting in unfamiliar, yet seemingly orchestrated ways: Extremely broad. At least half the works of psychological horror media features this in some fashion; would The Shining count as denpa too? This is what causes people to label shit like Doki Doki Literature Club! and Kimi to Kanojo to Kanojo no Koi. denpa, despite the fact that they're obviously not.
Stories where the world seems to have gone mad; and the protagonist is not necessarily an exception: Again, very broad and very broadly applicable to horror. Is Lovecraft denpa now?
The name comes from the idea that electromagnetic waves (denpa) is causing people to act strangely: This is a half-truth. Denpa is a Japanese slang term for weird people, that I believe originated from a court case where someone tried to claim innocence by reason of insanity because radio waves were interfering with his mind. I don't quite recall if Shizuku has those themes or not, but I don't think it's a term that's specific to VNs.
I don't think people read Modifications's description before applying it (thanks seniorblitz) and the definition should be changed to what people will actually use it for. Otherwise, I could actually see arguing for its removal entirely, especially if people are misusing it so much, since unofficial modifications aren't really a feature of a VN, and more a function of its fanbase.
Then, shouldn't the tag definition of NVL be changed to reflect that the VN needs to use NVL and ADV narration roughly equally? I doubt most people would misapply it, but I think it's good to be more specific anyway.
I'm not entirely sure how honest I was being about the "eradication of weeaboo terms" thing. I'm still a little triggered about the whole trap thing, I guess.
But seriously; what's the point in keeping Japanese tag titles with perfectly good English equivalents? Osananajimi and Seiyuu aren't necessarily obscure terms among the otaku community, but why are they more accurate than childhood friend or voice actor respectively?
Maybe 20th Century and its assorted subtags shouldn't be removed entirely, but what do you suggest we do about titles actually made in the 80s or 90s? That's my larger problem with the tag group, honestly.
I seem to remember hearing that Kadokawa tries to keep a tight lid on doujin VNs of Kancolle. Sure, there's nearly Touhou-levels of doujinshi and fan art, but you don't see nearly the same amount of games based on it, meaning that I don't think the tag is particularly useful overall.
|#1509 by seniorblitz|
2018-10-13 at 16:00
|I'm against the removal of Denpa, I just think the desc. needs to be modified to be less vague in some parts, I don't think the description is as wrong as Komina states, but yeah it need to be less broad which will require some discussion on how to approach this, also I think DDLC does have denpa themes, it isn't fully wrong to tag it as such, I recently played the Denpa VN called Soundless (directly inspired by SubaHibi) and there are similarities in style even if they are subtle.Last modified on 2018-10-13 at 16:05|
|#1510 by shinytentacool|
2018-10-14 at 01:21
|Is there any way to filter by developer + tag? Basically I'm trying to look for Guilty games that don't have gang rapeLast modified on 2018-10-14 at 01:21|
|#1511 by kominarachromer|
2018-10-14 at 01:41
|#1510 Nope, and I'm pretty sure you're out of luck there unless you really like eroge from the turn of the millennium.|
#1509 Funnily enough, the author of Soundless fucking hates DDLC and gave it a 1.
Anyway, DDLC does bear some resemblance to typically "denpa" concepts, but it certainly wasn't intentional like it was with Soundless, and I'd argue that it's not significant enough to consider it part of the genre. It shares more heritage with creepypasta and other """"meta-fictional"""" works like Undertale than actual horror VNs. Then again, I also think that calling pretty much anything "denpa" is misleading; especially since, considering the definition and origin, it would be far more accurate and straightforward to just call them "雫-likes".Last modified on 2018-10-14 at 02:13
|#1512 by shinytentacool|
2018-10-14 at 01:44
|#1511 Thanks. And yea I figured it's 100% in every single Guilty game, but I was still curious to find out|
|#1513 by kurox|
2018-10-14 at 12:08
|Does vndb not have a 'body painting' tag? Or did I just not find it?|
|#1514 by namingmegently|
2018-10-14 at 12:36
|#1513 There isn't a vn tag for that, no, only the Body Painting character trait with 77 character hits|
|#1515 by kurox|
2018-10-14 at 13:10
|#1514 Alright thanks, I hoped I failed in finding it but at least now I have a hint for searching.|
Its one of my favorite tags so I wanted to look for some vns that have it.
|#1516 by seniorblitz|
2018-10-14 at 19:27
|#1511 The irony kek. But yeah Shizuku-likes would be more accurate since even the name is inspired by the sound waves ("Denpa") that are a plot element in the game, however I can agree that the """Denpa"""" in the DDLC was way less intentional than in Soundless.|
|#1517 by leery|
2018-10-15 at 07:22
|1) Having Police Officer Protagonist and Policewoman Heroine under Fighting Protagonist/Heroine is quite a bit of a stretch.|
2) Police Officer Protagonist is missing under Police.
3) Protagonist with Glasses, alias Meganekko Protagonist.
4) Hero with Visible Underwear. I wonder about the usefulness of this tag. 13 of its 18 uses are for koihime musou and the character people seem to be referring to isn't even a hero afaict...
5) Gaijin Protagonist: I have a question. A Japanese game, set not in Japan, with a protagonist with a non-Japanese name. Is this the appropriate tag? Or is there something else?
6) I think the 'time and place' tags need to be mostly eradicated, instead changed into separate 'time' and 'place' tags. There shouldn't be a Modern Day Japan tag; there should be 'Modern Day' and 'Japan' tags. No Future China, yes Future + China... This would largely fix the Shikoku tags brought up above.
Now, there are some very useful tags that are tied to both place and time such as Bakumatsu and Taishou Era. Those should be kept, with the time and place be handled by the tag hierarchy system. (i.e. Place > Japan > Taishou & Time -> Past -> Taishou)
I know this isn't going to happen without Yothel's help.
(I mean, unless you don't mind annihilating huge swathes of users' tags.)
7) Bakumatsu should be named 'Bakumatsu Period' I guess, to match the others.
@1489, yes, after reviewing it a bit I think We Know the Devil sounds like a good fit. Can't say much about the other one.
But I'll have to think about the tag a bit longer. I turns out my trio of protagonists just split up and went their separate routes...
Oh yay, someone finally did something about the missing apostrophes.Last modified on 2018-10-15 at 07:24
|#1518 by seniorblitz|
2018-10-15 at 13:20
|Hero with Visible Underwear is probably very underused tbh, I think there are more heroes like this, also It is one of those cases where It is nice to have the male/female counterpart of a tag stay for the sake of concistence (tou it is up to the mods).|
|#1519 by seniorblitz|
2018-10-15 at 13:22
|Btw Only One Bad Ending should also be under Multiple Endings|
Edit: Oyaji Protagonist should also be under Adult Protagonist and Male Protagonist.Last modified on 2018-10-15 at 16:13
|#1520 by minah|
2018-10-15 at 14:18
|@1518 Parallel hero/heroine/protagonist tags are generally a good idea even if one is underutilized so that people don't go "eh close enough" and use the X heroine tag because an X hero tag doesn't exist.|
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