Tags suggestions/fixes

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#1651 by kiru
2019-05-02 at 16:05
^I can give you a reason for why an Antagonist tag wouldn't be approved: We already have plenty of tags for villains, rivals and the likes. There is honestly little need for more. Too much overlap.Last modified on 2019-05-02 at 16:07
#1652 by usagi
2019-05-02 at 16:44
I can give you a reason for why an Antagonist tag wouldn't be approved: We already have plenty of tags for villains, rivals and the likes. There is honestly little need for more. Too much overlap.
You're wrong. Tags such as Rival Hero or Villainous Hero have surprisingly low number of entries - and they defines characters with routes or endings only. How can they include characters such a Kotomine Kirei or Tonoo Kouji? They can't.Last modified on 2019-05-02 at 16:46
#1653 by kiru
2019-05-02 at 17:29
People search for main characters. Supporting character roles are completely secondary.

Also keep in mind, that the tags are all called a little weirdly. Generally speaking, "hero" can be used for major male villains in non otome games. Otherwise games like Umineko couldn't have much of any tag whatsoever. It's... a bit unfortunate and may need some change, but so does a lot with the tag system right now. It's just not made for games where the main goal isn't just "get the girl/dude" and every other character is minor.
That in itself however is no reason to try and add tags only for those games, which would completely overlap with existing tags, if they would be more appropriately named for those games. What I'm trying to say here is: It's better to take existing tags and fix the overall problem with them, rather than adding new ones that have little meaning if those old tags would have all necessary variations to begin with.


One point of view, really. I personally think we have too many tags already, rather than not enough. You said it yourself: There are very few entries in those tags. Do you really think, this would be different for your idea? How needed is this in a medium, where 90%+ is heavily about "get the girl" or just lewds? How relevant is a tag like that for searching? If it's really just about chuuni, we can rather talk about bringing that back, as this is fairly well defined. On the flipside, we still don't have moege either, so...Last modified on 2019-05-02 at 17:35
#1654 by usagi
2019-05-02 at 19:03
People search for main characters. Supporting character roles are completely secondary.
Depends on the game. In one the antagonist can be main, in other - secondary. I would say antagonist is just special category of characters - in many cases they can be the most interesting characters there and what drives people to read it. It's a mistake to ignore novels with and without antagonists and don't make a distinction - such novels are too different in nature!
Generally speaking, "hero" can be used for major male villains in non otome games.
Seriously? It's the first time I am hearing it 0_0 Otomege fans, for example, when searching for dateable heroes using current tags system - would be in a mess finding nondateable villains instead - if that was the case.
Otherwise games like Umineko couldn't have much of any tag whatsoever. It's... a bit unfortunate and may need some change, but so does a lot with the tag system right now. It's just not made for games where the main goal isn't just "get the girl/dude" and every other character is minor.
I am aware of it. However the unspoken rule of using hero/heroine tags for searching purposes for games without romantic routes unless there is at least one such route/ending - is enough. It's cringy, I know - however it's have its pluses as well. Keeping current hero/heroine definitions we provide very important and convenient searching filter for separating characters with routes/endings and without them. Even if it's only in ren-ai/charages - it's still important since it's majority of novels here.
On other hand, if we decide to uphold tags usage rules strictly as they are - it would require creating and developing as many supporting characters tags as heroines tags - to make games such as Umineko conveniently searchable. And it wouldn't be good idea considering that overabundance of tags you mentioned already.
That in itself however is no reason to try and add tags only for those games, which would completely overlap with existing tags, if they would be more appropriately named for those games. What I'm trying to say here is: It's better to take existing tags and fix the overall problem with them, rather than adding new ones that have little meaning if those old tags would have all necessary variations to begin with.
No, you can't fix current global tags system already - it's too late for that. As I said above - people are too used already for current hero/heroines tags definitions - changing them now meaning creating chaos and edit wars. And in current form they are not overlapping with anything. Heroes/heroines is about characters with endings/routes (unless it's noncharage/kinetic novel); antagonists is about characters who is against protagonist. While in rare cases that can overlap (i.e. Mayadere Hero) - in most cases it's not.
There are very few entries in those tags. Do you really think, this would be different for your idea? How needed is this in a medium, where 90%+ is heavily about "get the girl" or just lewds? How relevant is a tag like that for searching?
What are you talking about? Do you realize that you are contradicting yourself? 0_0 First, you are complaining about redundancy of tags, second, you complaining about low number of entries. But the less entries there are - the more this tag is relevant and useful! It means that this tag serves it's purpose well - helping to find rare novels. Tags such as Male Protagonist is what almost useless and redundant there.
Still, while not too many - there are quite a solid chunk of chuuni-ges there. What's wrong to have a tag helping finding them?
If it's really just about chuuni, we can rather talk about bringing that back, as this is fairly well defined. On the flipside, we still don't have moege either, so...
The problem with chuunige/moege tags is:
1) it's hard to define. Foggy description can lead to many mistagging cases as a result.
2) many fans of the genre are considering such names as too derogatoryLast modified on 2019-05-02 at 19:21
#1655 by beliar
2019-05-02 at 19:19
The problem with chuunige/moege tags is:
1) it's hard to define. Foggy description can lead to many mistagging cases as a result.
The same can be said about the Antagonist tag.

I personally think we have too many tags already, rather than not enough.
Listen to the man - he tells the truth.

The problems with your proposed tag are manyfold, but most of all- the tag is undefinable by the definition. Antagonist is not a synonym for a villain - it's simply someone who is at odds with the protagonist. Basically he can be the genocidal maniac, the gang leader, a mean teacher, or a hot disciplinarian who will inevitably become one of the winnable heroines. Would we use the tag for all of those? That's insane, because basically every game, even true love moeges, have some sort of conflict, which is frequently fostered by the antagonist. And we didn't even scratch the category of heroic antagonists, which happens when we have a villain protagonist. So what, we once again would put a hot warrior princess that opposes the rapist protagonist for five minutes before succumbing to his dick into the same basket? The archetype exists in many a nukige, which would make the tag pretty much useless, just like you say the Male Protagonist tag is.

The only of the proposed tags that might be slightly useful is "Antagonist with Ideology", but I can already see it misused to hell and back.

Anyway, I'm strongly against the tag and certainly don't even entertain the thought of accepting it. Sometimes you have good ideas, Usagi, but other times your suggestions are frankly daft :-P
#1656 by usagi
2019-05-02 at 19:40
Antagonist is not a synonym for a villain - it's simply someone who is at odds with the protagonist. Basically he can be the genocidal maniac, the gang leader, a mean teacher, or a hot disciplinarian who will inevitably become one of the winnable heroines.
That was the idea! You said it like it's something wrong - but it's not. As I said above - it's a general tag. If needed - subtags such as Virtuous Antagonist and Villainous Antagonist can be added as well. But even without such tags I consider it still as useful - since novels with antagonists are very different from standart ones - both in plot and general feel.
That's insane, because basically every game, even true love moeges, have some sort of conflict, which is frequently fostered by the antagonist. And we didn't even scratch the category of heroic antagonists, which happens when we have a villain protagonist. So what, we once again would put a hot warrior princess that opposes the rapist protagonist for five minutes before succumbing to his dick into the same basket? The archetype exists in many a nukige, which would make the tag pretty much useless, just like you say the Male Protagonist tag is.
Ok, it was my bad. I edited description somewhat: "Antagonist is the character in a story who is playing plot-defining role against the protagonist i.e. can be considered his enemy.
It's possible to have multiple antagonists. Depending on the story it's not neccessary that antagonist should be only villainous. However do not use this tag unless antagonistic role is important enough for main plot and consistently played by a character through majority of a story".
Still a no? Well, Lilith games such as Kangoku Senkan ~Hidou no Sennou Kaizou Koukai~ would still qualify, I suppose - but they ARE chuuni-ges to an extent. Still, even without changed description I am very interested to know what MOEGES you consider applicable for the tag - where heroines are ENEMIES of protagonist 0_0 I mean Tsundere behavior is not enough to be considered as enemy - don't you think?Last modified on 2019-05-02 at 19:59
#1657 by beliar
2019-05-02 at 19:57
My main problem with your proposal is that it's simply too broad. While your definition what an antagonist is, is mostly agreeable, it will basically apply to 80% or so VNs. And your suggestion to split it even further into Villainous/Heroic Antagonist will simply stuff the db with tags that either will not be used enough or will be overused.

You rail against an overused tag like Male Protagonist, but you are making the same mistake of creating another mostly useless tag. And unlike Male Protagonist, which is actively used to sift for VNs, I can barely imagine anyone filtering the VNs based on an Antagonist. At least not in such broad strokes...

I'm really not convinced on the usefulness of this tag. Frankly, I would err on the side of adding too few tags than too many. I'm more lenient regarding traits and we actually already have an antagonist trait, which I think is enough.
#1658 by usagi
2019-05-02 at 20:09
I added couple of lines to the previous response - see above.
I don't think Antagonists are that common though. Majority of vns are still moeges - and heroines there are never your enemies, even tsunderes. Also there are slice of life plot which lacks any strong confrontation with third party - otherwise it wouldn't be moege.
Well, anyway, I respect your decision and take your explanation as it is. I suppose my two other tags suggestions will be declined as well?Last modified on 2019-05-03 at 20:51
#1659 by natsulamune
2019-05-02 at 23:46
Jumpscares

But maybe as minor spoiler...
#1660 by usagi
2019-05-03 at 20:43
Pls change the description of Hero with Naked Top (if it will be approved) to "This game has considerable amount of scenes where one can see hero(es) with naked/mostly naked top half of their body ." I think it's better version since fantasy heroes with some straps over naked torso are quite common too - so I added "mostly naked" clause.Last modified on 2019-05-03 at 20:47
#1661 by ginseigou
2019-05-09 at 01:26
I suggest to add an additional child tag to More Than Seven Endings like "Extremely High Amount of Endings". There is a huge difference if a vn has 8-10 endings or 30-40, but with the previous tag both classified the same.Last modified on 2019-05-10 at 05:05
#1662 by bobjr2000
2019-05-09 at 02:04
what vn has 30-40 endings?
#1663 by ginseigou
2019-05-09 at 02:15
I'm sure that Rinkaiten ~Critical Point~ has about 30 endings and Kokorono has 43. Bible Black and Heartwork probably have more than 20.
#1664 by butterflygrrl
2019-05-09 at 10:55
aoishiro has a shit ton of endings iirc, though most of them are just quick 'you dead' ends.
#1665 by usagi
2019-05-09 at 16:11
Yeah. 428 ~Fuusa Sareta Shibuya de~ or Apathy - Midnight Collection ~Vol. 1~ has tons of endings too. Aoishiro has 56 endings as far as I recall.Last modified on 2019-05-09 at 16:13
#1666 by kiru
2019-05-09 at 16:50
I don't think you need that at all.

We have High Amount of Bad Endings , which is almost(?) always the case for games with a ton of endings. I don't actually know any game with a ton of not bad endings. Anyway, way too much overlap with an existing tag and probably just completely useless, as I doubt there are many games that have a ton of good endings.Last modified on 2019-05-09 at 16:51
#1667 by butterflygrrl
2019-05-09 at 17:27
Princess Maker type games have a huge amount of good endings if you count every career outcome as a separate ending.
#1668 by ginseigou
2019-05-10 at 00:27
We have High Amount of Bad Endings , which is almost(?) always the case for games with a ton of endings.
I think it's not as apparent to people who search for vns with a ton of endings as you make it sound.Last modified on 2019-05-10 at 00:30
#1669 by bobjr2000
2019-05-10 at 02:35
That is kinda what I assumed with what kiru said most of endings seem to be just bad endings. Seems weird to me to go out of way to look for lots of bad endings in vn but tag does exist for it.
#1670 by [deleted]
2019-05-10 at 03:35
You can just vote the More than Seven Endings up or down depending on how many more than seven endings there, are, i.e. 8 endings = vote 1, 15 endings = vote 2, 30 endings = vote 3.

But a child tag with some arbitrarily higher number (I don't know why seven was picked in the first place), More than 20 Endings or something, could be useful for filtering, since High Amount of Bad Endings isn't a child tag of More than Seven Endings.
#1671 by sakurakoi
2019-05-10 at 04:02
(I don't know why seven was picked in the first place)
Probably because this was perceived as over the standard number, like how most romantic works tend to have an upper limit around 5, maybe 6 but more rarely 7 love interests/routes, never even mind 8.

Seems weird to me to go out of way to look for lots of bad endings in vn but tag does exist for it.
It's worth keeping in mind that tags and traits do not purely exist for searchability but informational purposes, as well as statistical. But in this case, yes indeed, searching for a high amount of bad endings is not too dissimilar to looking for Utsuge.

I don't actually know any game with a ton of not bad endings.
Maybe we should start with quantifying it in the first place since after all, literary a ton it ain't obviously. "Many" and "A lot" also are utterly vague.

Well, vndb being inconsistent "quantify dis, not quantify dat" is not the first time.

Still waiting for tags like "Less than 12 Base HCG" and "More than 100 Base HCG" by the by~
but nah, not perceived to be needed I guess.
#1672 by kiru
2019-05-10 at 09:06
@1670: The bad ending tag can't be a child tag, because it would mean, that it ALWAYS has to apply, when the parent tag applies. But that's obviously wrong. In no way means having more than seven endings having a bad ending, let alone a ton of them. The other way around doesn't work either.

As for people not using vndb and its tags well, that's a given and nothing we can do about. Unless there are a lot of games with a lot of not bad endings, we don't need a tag for that. It's just more clutter. And games like Princess Maker I'd not even consider valid examples, as their existence in this DB is questionable already. Obviously, games that are very borderline in terms of being a VN are the most likely ones to need tags that other VNs generally don't. It's a simulation game at its heart, and obviously those can have a ton of ending variations, based on your achievements. Similar enough games have been deleted from vndb before already. (i.e. long live the queen)Last modified on 2019-05-10 at 09:09
#1673 by ginseigou
2019-05-10 at 10:19
You can just vote the More than Seven Endings up or down depending on how many more than seven endings there, are, i.e. 8 endings = vote 1, 15 endings = vote 2, 30 endings = vote 3.
It just doesn't work. I would vote 1, but 5 other people might have a different opinion based on their own voting system.
searching for a high amount of bad endings is not too dissimilar to looking for Utsuge.
That's wrong. Too many examples contradict this.Last modified on 2019-05-10 at 10:23
#1674 by warfoki
2019-05-12 at 22:13
Cleared up the tag queue. I have a feeling that Usagi will not be particularly happy about it though...

On another note: if you see the age of those ambagious tags with "lot", "high" etc in them, you'll see that most of them are very, VERY old, from the days when VNDB was a reasonably small scale enthusiast project with like a couple hundred entries and no character database and a fairly limited userbase. The reason they don't have specifics to them, is because they are so widely used at this point that it would be an absolute nightmare to change them in any significant way. Hence we usually make do with child tags where more specifics are called for.

I'm up for a tag separately for VNs with a ton of endings, but I think we need to specify what kind of endings we are talking about here. There's a world of difference between having a ton of throwaway instant game over endings and something like Koisuru Oukoku.

It just doesn't work. I would vote 1, but 5 other people might have a different opinion based on their own voting system.

It's simpler than that: a LOT of people don't bother with the strength of the tags, just put them in and click "Ok" and thus the tags default at 2.Last modified on 2019-05-12 at 22:16
#1675 by usagi
2019-05-12 at 23:44
Cleared up the tag queue. I have a feeling that Usagi will not be particularly happy about it though...
Yeah, you are right. I am definitely not happy )) Still, I was expecting it - so it's not that disappointing. I read the reasons behind my tags disapproving and I understand them to a degree - however I think you became just too cautious/conservative in your approach and how you imagine users would treat them. Give them some credit - users are not that foolish here and they have general common sense when and for what tags are used - even if their description is not always ideal. Else tags such as Nakige would be misused hell and back - however it was used quite appropriate as far as I can see.
Even if you disagree with my ideas - it would be better to give your criticism of them here and suggest your own vision or possible fix - instead of completely denying them. I mean - it's not some throwaway tags which I made in 5 minutes while being bored.. I spent lot of time and care to create them and I each time I am making a tag - I do it only when there is real neccessity for it and it's something that I feel is needed to find something that I want to find - and I can't do it with current set of tags.
I can understand general unwillingness to include new tags at that point of time - considering huge number of them now. However - is high number of tags such big flaw? I don't think so. What is more important - it's that they would be used appropriately and with purpose. What is real flaw - it's redundancy of tags. Therefore, before banning the tag with some interesting potential - you should ask yourself about what tags or combination of tags this can be replaced with? If you can't find the answer - then it means the tag can't be redundant at least. And it's worthy to discuss and implement in one form or another.
In case of Seductress Heroine - as a substitute I can think only of Slutty Heroine. Still - they are completely different tags with different purposes - which can be combined only in some cases - but there are more cases where they can't. Also I read several hundreds vns already - and I can assure you that for majority of them that tag can't be applied - even in nukiges (except SOME femdom, shotacon and reverse ntr ones where focus is not only on h-scenes). The tag deceptively seems very common considering how typical such behavior in RL - BUT in vns world it's unexpectedly unique trait. Also the name of the tag is very important defining factor too. You think the tag would be misused on typical moege archetypes. I don't believe it though - people have enough common sense to know who they WANT to tag it with and who are not worthy to bother - even without description. That said - even if there will be lots of vns with this tag - is it such a bad thing? Why? The tag will definitely have their connosieurs - and there will be lots of vns without it too. What is so bad in that situation?
In case of Antagonist - as a substitute I can't think of any at all. The need for the tag is definitely there. I agree that the description can be less vague though. Still, why deny it at once? Wouldn't it be better to suggest more appropriate description instead or just define what you don't like and why - and ask for the new draft? As a fix we can change name to "Main/Major Antagonist" for example - and add line about including it only in case of main antagonists for the whole vn story - and not only for one route etc. It's a lot less vague now, no? And there can be other variants too.
As for Hero with Naked Top - I just don't get what you didn't like. Maybe it's because you are not woman? The tag purpose is pretty clear - it's meant for fetishistic needs of otoge/BL vns lovers. The same purpose as with Heroine with Visible Panties tag - for general male audience. Do you think female vn fans wouldn't be interested in such tag? Why we don't ask them first then?Last modified on 2019-05-13 at 00:05

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