Tags suggestions/fixes

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#1676 by warfoki
2019-05-13 at 00:52
I think you became just too cautious/conservative in your approach and how you imagine users would treat them.

I've always been cautious about letting tags / traits through. I literally started my "career" as a mod in here by having to edit hundreds of tags and traits to clean up the mess that was the tag / trait system. Thus I learned very quickly that leniency in regards of adding new tags / traits is a recipe for disaster. I've always had the same approach to handling this: play the devil's advocate. Think of not how can this tag used correctly, but how can it be used incorrectly. If it's way too easy to do that, it goes on the deleted / denied pile.

Give them some credit - users are not that foolish here and they have general common sense when and for what tags are used - even if their description is not always ideal.

Aside of years of experience telling otherwise, I suppose we just have a very different worldview here. I'm a pessimistic, bitter cynic with zero faith in humanity. To me the idea of trusting a large crowd that nobody in there is going to do something stupid and start a domino effect with it if left unsupervised is absolutely laughable. Just think all the weird warnings ("don't dry live animals in it" in microwave manuals) and laws (the "It is illegal to kill a dog using a decompression chamber." one in Michigan, USA for one): they exist because some moron have tried to do them.

Else tags such as Nakige would be misused hell and back - however it was used quite appropriate as far as I can see.

Nakige is a made-up word and has no meaning in native English. It's an otaku term, the ones knowing it know how to use it, the ones don't will either won't use it or look up the description. Absolutely nobody will bother looking up the Seductress Heroine description before slapping it on everything else, but the most virginal of waifus.

Even if you disagree with my ideas - it would be better to give your criticism of them here and suggest your own vision or possible fix - instead of completely denying them.

I do that if I see that the tag only needs minor fixes (hell I often just do the minor fix if I know what's the issue) or if I'm unsure about the tag, because it's something I don't know much about. However, with Antagonist and Seductress Heroine there is simply no way I can think of to make these not too vague and VERY easily misusable. These are fundamentally flawed to the point where having it would cause more problems than not.

I spent lot of time and care to create them and I each time I am making tag - I do it only when there is real neccessity for it and it's something that I feel is needed to find something that I want to find - and I can't do it with current set of tags.

At the risk of sounding like a total asshole: this is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is how practical the tag is. How much effort the submitter put into it doesn't matter.

I can understand general unwillingness to include new tags at that point of time - considering huge number of them now. However - is high number of tags such big flaw? I don't think so. What is more important - it's that they would be used appropriately and with purpose. What is real flaw - it's redundancy of tags. Therefore, before banning the tag with some interesting potential - you should ask yourself about what tags or combination of tags this can be replaced with? If you can't find the answer - then it means the tag can't be redundant at least. And it's worthy to discuss and implement in one form or another.

High number in and of itself is not that big of a deal. If the tag doesn't catch on, then we can just delete it whenever, if it does, good. And yes, redundancy is something we have to watch out for, in fact it's one of the most common reasons for denying tags, so you can't say that we let through redundant stuff. However, a tag not being redundant doesn't make it automatically useful, it's just one aspect. We don't have a Dancing Chipmunks tag either, but I think we can agree that we don't need it either. We also don't have Japanese Heroine, Vaginal Sex or Annoying Story tags either, nor do we need them. Aside of not being redundant, tags also have to be descriptive, non-vague as much as possible, have a low potential to be misapplied a lot and potentially useful for searching purposes.

In case of Seductress Heroine - as a substitute I can think only of Slutty Heroine. Still - they are completely different tags with different purposes - which can be combined only in some cases - but there are more cases where they can't. Also I read several hundreds vns already - and I can assure you that for majority of them that tag can't be applied - even in nukiges (except SOME femdom, shotacon and reverse ntr ones where focus is not only on h-scenes). The tag deceptively seems very common considering how typical such behavior in RL - BUT in vns world it's unexpectedly unique trait. That said - even if there will be lots of vns with this tag - is it such a bad thing? Why? The tag will definitely have their connosieurs - and there will be lots of vns without it too. What is so bad in that situation?

Fyi, I consider Slutty Heroine to be too subjective as well and I probably wouldn't have let it through. I probably would have put it up for discussion to see what others think of it. The tag predates my moderatorship by a good 3 years tough, so by the time I took over, it was used too much for me to bother doing anything with it, so I just let it be. The problem of Seductress Heroine is that it's way more vague. See, if you look at VNs tagged with Slutty Heroine, you can see that most of them are nukiges or borderline nukiges. To put it simply, teh archetype is a fetish-fuel and most of them are on the extreme end of slutty. Temptress is not such a clearly outlined, often used fetish fuel. Not to mention how much more subjective the definition is. Like slutty is easy: she wants the D and wants it often, with no regard for relationships or romance. That's about it. The fact that about 2/3 of the description under Seductress Heroine is clarification on how NOT to use the tag is a pretty telltale sign of the problem: namely the word "seductress" is way too damn vague here to be useful. To put it simply, the problem is not that a lot of VNs would be tagged, the problem is that every tagger might have a different idea of what constitutes as "seductive" behavior, leaving the tag used inconsistently, and, with time, turning the tag into a hollow piece of nothing.

In case of Antagonist - as a substitute I can't think of any at all. The need for the tag is definitely there. I agree that the description can be less vague though. Still, why deny it at once? Wouldn't it be better to suggest more appropriate description instead or just define what you don't like and why - and ask for the new draft? As a fix we can change name to "Main/Major Antagonist" for example - and add line about including it only in case of main antagonists for the whole vn story - and not only for one route etc. It's a lot less vague now, no? And there can be other variants too.

I mean, denying a tag isn't a ban on discussing it. There are multiple examples in the past where I initially denied a tag, that later on, with revisions, got accepted. Major Antagonist might be actually useful. Still a bit vague, but I'm willing to give that one a shot.

As for Hero with Naked Top - I just don't get what you didn't like. Maybe it's because you are not woman? The tag purpose is pretty clear - it's meant for fetishistic needs of otoge/BL vns lovers. The same purpose as with Heroine with Visible Panties tag - for general male audience. Do you think female vn fans wouldn't be interested in such tag? Why we don't ask them first then?

Basically I checked if there's a counterpart in the female section: Nude Heroine, Topless Heroine and the like. Considering that the VNs featuring heroines vastly outnumber the VNs featuring heroes, I figured that if we never needed a tag like that for females, then we sure as shit don't need one for heroes. still, I guess I can let it though. It's not like it's gonna do any harm.Last modified on 2019-05-13 at 01:12
#1677 by usagi
2019-05-13 at 01:50
I mean, denying a tag isn't a ban on discussing it. There are multiple examples in the past where I initially denied a tag, that later on, with revisions, got accepted. Major Antagonist might be actually useful. Still a bit vague, but I'm willing to give that one a shot.
It was unexpected 0_0 Thanks :) Maybe it would be better to change Enemy alias to Archenemy though - to stress the fact about "major" aspect.
Basically I checked if there's a counterpart in the female section: Nude Heroine, Topless Heroine and the like. Considering that the VNs featuring heroines vastly outnumber the VNs featuring heroes, I figured that if we never needed a tag like that for females, then we sure as shit don't need one for heroes. still, I guess I can let it though. It's not like it's gonna do any harm.
For Nude Heroine there are Naked Sprites and Nude Filter tags. As for Topless one - the whole Heroines Clothing and Accessories family of tags are meant for heroines "everyday" clothes which they usually wear outside of sex scenes. Considering considerable difference in society's acceptance of topless women against topless men - it's practically impossible to find vns with constantly topless heroines as their everyday appearance - whereas even all age vns with some topless men exists.

See, if you look at VNs tagged with Slutty Heroine, you can see that most of them are nukiges or borderline nukiges. To put it simply, teh archetype is a fetish-fuel and most of them are on the extreme end of slutty.
And? Is it bad? I would say the tag doing its job well - it helps to find certain type of nukiges for those who likes them - or want to avoid this type of character. Moreover- it shows that users are capable to define what they want with the tag with rather vague description very well on their own - they use it only for those heroines which they consider slutty enough to bother to tag them with it. What matters - is there is enough demand for the tag. If there is - eventually people will use it properly on their own IMO.

For Seductress Heroine tag maybe I try to fix something later.. as I already said - what I wanted to define with it are heroines like Suou Amane, Shiina Miyako or Carmen Valentine - since their behavior towards protagonist are dramatically different comparing to majority of typical heroines. Maybe naming these characters will help to understand what I need to change in description to not be as vague as it is now - for other people to help me as well. I am out of ideas now.. I think at least two major conditions are clear though:
1) protagonist shouldn't be willng to accept heroine's advances at first
2) heroine should be proactive in her advances even if they are masked as "victim" behaviorLast modified on 2019-05-13 at 02:33
#1678 by namingmegently
2019-05-16 at 03:10
Could the 'Backlog Jump' tag that was discussed from t3617.1073 up to t3617.1089 be implemented?
#1679 by dk382
2019-05-25 at 07:14
After t12369, I want to fix Bunnygirl Heroine's confusing description, but first, I want to know: what is the intended difference between Usagimimi Heroine and Bunnygirl Cosplay? Because from what I can tell, they appear to have identical purposes. I want to delete Usagimimi Heroine, make "Usamimi Heroine" an alias of Bunnygirl Cosplay (name change recommended in the aforementioned thread), and to put Bunnygirl Heroine as a child tag under Kemonomimi Heroine. Also to mirror these changes in any male tags that exist (I did not look this up). Thoughts?Last modified on 2019-05-25 at 07:19
#1680 by kiru
2019-05-25 at 07:48
^The idea is literally what the tag name implies. It's for EARS. Same with nekomimi and so on. Ears. Only. Cosplay is way more than that. Cosplay also needs to be willingly cosplay. Nekomimi can just be a normal accessory. You don't cosplay as a cat or cat-girl. Also, exceptions exist and there may be one more accessory (i.e. tail), but not an entire suit.

I don't see a problem with the 3 tags. They are all different and have their value. Now, if they are all necessary that's another thing. But you can't just merge them. That doesn't work. Just having bunny ears as an accessory doesn't make it cosplay.Last modified on 2019-05-25 at 07:52
#1681 by sakurakoi
2019-05-25 at 08:23
Basically the idea is...
-Whatevermimi: Semi-permanent fake, whether accessory, hair shape or clothing (like a Parker), ears are a must, tail is optional
-Whatever Cosplay: Temporary fake
-Whatevergirl: Permanent and real body feature to whatever extend

The problem? Regardless of the unnecessary lingo, "Whatever Girl" is indeed also used as term used IRL cosplay, especially the Bunny one is very well known in the west for an obvious reason. My suggestion is to add into the name "Beast" i.e "Bunny Beast Girl Heroine" to set it apart from Cosplay.

By the by I am kinda surprised that there is no parent tag for those like "Humanoid Beast Heroine".

Cosplay also needs to be willingly cosplay.
I'd rather say it needs to be deliberate since it can be still forced on one...
#1682 by dk382
2019-05-25 at 08:32
^The idea is literally what the tag name implies. It's for EARS. Same with nekomimi and so on. Ears. Only. Cosplay is way more than that. Cosplay also needs to be willingly cosplay. Nekomimi can just be a normal accessory. You don't cosplay as a cat or cat-girl. Also, exceptions exist and there may be one more accessory (i.e. tail), but not an entire suit.

I don't see a problem with the 3 tags. They are all different and have their value. Now, if they are all necessary that's another thing. But you can't just merge them. That doesn't work. Just having bunny ears as an accessory doesn't make it cosplay.
"usagimimi" or "usamimi" don't mean or imply anything in english because they're not english words. I think it's safe to assume that a very large percentage of users in our database won't be aware that "mimi" is the japanese word for "ear." I know I didn't for a long-ass time, and actually forgot this fact when I made my last post. Also, that tag's description doesn't specify that it's intended to be used only for ears. In fact, the description makes it sound identical to cosplay in general, which is why I thought they should be merged. If Usagimimi Heroine is indeed meant to only be used for ear accessories, then this should be made more clear. Though, honestly...

But you can't just merge them. That doesn't work. Just having bunny ears as an accessory doesn't make it cosplay.

I still don't see why not, tbh. Is a single clothing accessory important enough for an entire tag when we already have a cosplay tag for this? This sounds like we're needlessly splitting hairs, and we'll get both tags a shitload of times and people will still mistag a lot.Last modified on 2019-05-25 at 08:41
#1683 by sakurakoi
2019-05-25 at 10:24
Is a single clothing accessory important enough for an entire tag
Mind you, it is also Kemonomimi (hair), Kemonomimi Hat and Kemonomimi Hood~

and yes, having/wearing any of those hardly counts as cosplay, precisely because and Usagimimi Heroine indeed even reads:
Note: Do NOT use these tags for Kemonomimi characters for whom animalistic traits are either biological or the clothes and acessories representing the animalistic traits are their normal attire.

and we'll get both tags a shitload of times and people will still mistag a lot.
Mayhaps because you are focusing on descriptions when many might not even read them because they use Common Sense™ to save their time? No one reads all descriptions just to be save. So, rather than the jargon "Usagimimi Heroine", one should just name it "Heroine with Bunny look"
#1684 by lywzc
2019-05-25 at 12:40
like I said in the other posts, namely t12369.3 and t3314.1682
The Usagimimi Heroine should be named "Usamimi Heroine" without "gi" according to link and link.
And considering Bunnygirl Heroine is a Child tag of Usagimimi Heroine but they contradict, I suggest making Usagimimi Heroine a appearance only trait.
BTW, both Inumimi Heroine and Nekomimi Heroine correctly state that it is an appearance only trait, so we can copy the description of these to fit the Usagimimi Heroine.
I hope I clarified myself
#1685 by dk382
2019-05-25 at 23:36
@1683: Those are traits, not tags. Tags have stricter requirements for what qualifies for inclusion. There are plenty of traits for specific clothing items and that's fine, but we shouldn't add tags for all of them. The presence of these specific traits doesn't say anything about whether we should have a tag specifically for girls wearing bunny ear headbands but not full bunnygirl outfits.

What would be wrong with a single tag where you could just vote 1 on if they have only one or two items of an ensemble and vote higher if they have a full outfit? This is how we already use the tag system for many other features that aren't binary.Last modified on 2019-05-25 at 23:38
#1686 by sakurakoi
2019-05-26 at 00:38
What would be wrong with a single tag where you could just vote 1 on if they have only one or two items of an ensemble and vote higher if they have a full outfit?
It's really simple:

It's not cosplay.

Tags have stricter requirements for what qualifies for inclusion
Like having enough characters with the trait?

Kemonomimi Hairstyle (337)
Kemonomimi Hat (234)
Kemonomimi Hood (95)
Kemonomimi Headband (939) of which many are not cosplay (the above are rarely if not never cosplay)

Check.

And being a major fetish/preference/selling point/often searched for?

Ultra Check.
#1687 by kiru
2019-05-26 at 07:49
Yeah, the problem is, that a simple accessory is not cosplay. Removing some of these tags is one thing, but you'd not merge them. You'd merge the respective tag with their parent tag. With Usagimimi Heroine it'd be Kemonomimi Heroine . For Bunnygirl Cosplay it'd be Animal Cosplay .

To understand a tag's idea, you can also just check parent tags. When things actually work as intended, they hint to what this is supposed to be about. Obviously this isn't always the case. In this case the understanding of what cosplay is, seems to be an issue though. Which admittedly has a bit of a loose definition. But in my opinion it's more loose towards things like "can you even cosplay as a bunnygirl?", given how cosplay is normally defined as "become a different character". A bunnygirl is no.. character. It's just a specific style. Perhaps as such calling these things "cosplay" goes too far.
The term means "costume" and "play", so it's not completely wrong to consider an entire bunny-suit something like that. But yeah, a costume is at the very least needed. Accessories are not enough. No matter how many.Last modified on 2019-05-26 at 07:51
#1688 by lunaterra
2019-05-26 at 21:03
More of a question than a suggestion. Can/should Body of Water be used for VNs which primarily/wholly take place underwater?
#1689 by warfoki
2019-05-26 at 21:20
I don't see why not.
#1690 by sakurakoi
2019-05-26 at 21:43
For a second I thought that Submarine might mean Underwater but well, if there is no tag for that... but why is its alias "Sub"?!
#1691 by [deleted]
2019-05-26 at 21:53
^ Not sure if trolling or just ESL...
#1692 by namingmegently
2019-05-27 at 01:28
FW:t3617.1678

"Could the 'Backlog Jump' tag that was discussed from t3617.1073 up to t3617.1089 be implemented?"
#1693 by warfoki
2019-05-27 at 11:39
Backlog jump would be pretty much skipping to a point in the backlog of your choice, which is usually limited to a x hundred lines to "everything that was before" but never everything you have seen (let alone featuring any way to find the right thing easily as it's literally just a backlog, as huge as it may be able to be). Backlog jump is NOT INTENDED FOR BIG JUMPS. This is solely a feature to go back a few lines, nothing more nothing less. Having backlog jump does in no way give you a fast way to reach a specific point in the VN, you will need normal skipping or actual scene skip/jump for that, so making it the same as scene skip would already be very bad. The problem here is simply: It's only backwards.

Just to be clear, we are talking about this definition of it, right?
#1694 by sakurakoi
2019-05-27 at 13:20
To my understanding, the database only wants to accept the most basic features- or the lack thereof, depending on the feature itself- and do not want to create a trend of making tags for feature minutiae. I'm inclined to agree with this.
Incidentally, the Technical Section is or rather has by far the least tags which are applied, especially since many are mutually exclusive and many do not make an Action-RPG-Tower Defense-Puzzle Game. Documenting technical features should actually be a mission of vndb as reference for creators to make at least technically high quality works.

While it may be arguable to allow tags for Custom Cursors (+Selection), for being to "minute" (similarly to which sound sliders exist, including master one), Backlog Jump is by no means to "minute". Otherwise something like the semi-recently added No Auto Function work in a different way, by implying how it is a standard, similar to saves, gallery mode &c. Those may be arguable because they tend to be simply forgotten to be added, due to the fact that their existence is too unknown.

Personally, I am still hoping for works to be tagged with either "Keep Voice on Click" or "No Keep Voice on Click"... oh, and "Dramatic mode" should spread more (text box disappears when voiced). Similarly to Backlog Jump, which is indeed featured like this when implemented, i.e one uses the Backlog to Jump, back of course.

^ Not sure if trolling or just ESL...
Considering what Submarine literary means and the lack of an "Underwater" tag, ya can't fault me for considering that someone else was trolling instead. And yes, the alias is pointless~
#1695 by [deleted]
2019-05-27 at 13:59
Are you seriously doubling down on this? "No I'm honestly confused about what 'submarine' means or that 'sub' is short for it even though that's literally the first sentence of the Wikipedia article the tag links to, clearly the person who submitted the tag was the troll and not me" is ridiculous even considering the usual quality of your comments.
#1696 by sakurakoi
2019-05-27 at 14:30
I see now. You just want to make me look bad by putting words into my mouth, or well, text I did not write when obviously the jab at that was so light that it could not even hurt a fly.

Now a question which has been so often thought on the internet and so rarely asked: "Have you no shame?"~
#1697 by kiru
2019-05-27 at 16:12
@1693: That seems faulty, as there are games with backlogs reaching the very beginning of the novel, and some of those also allow you to jump to any point in the backlog. A lot of Yuzusoft games come to mind. (though you have to go to the "top" for it to load more... and more and more)

Obviously, the question is, as always: Do we need to separate this from normal "jumps"? Would anyone ever search for that? Would people care about such a tag at all? I personally would rather combine this with Skip to Choices and change it, so that it's not just bound to choices. Would be useful for those games offering flowchart jumps or simple scene jumps as well. Those exist as well. Having a tag for all of these goes too far in my opinion. And they all more or less serve the same purpose. (minimize the need of normal skipping)Last modified on 2019-05-27 at 16:15
#1698 by namingmegently
2019-05-27 at 20:27
@1693:

No, I'd define the Backlog Jump function as follows:

In an uninterrupted playthrough (i.e. not loaded from a saved file), any line retained by the backlog will have a button to the side of the line (right next to the voice replay button if there is one) that will allow you to jump back with pinpointed accuracy to the part of the vn where that line was given and then play the vn from that point onward.

t3617.1082 provided a screenshot for reference: link

I specified "uninterrupted playthrough" for 2 reasons:

1. In lots of vns, loading from a saved file removes all the lines that were in the backlog, ergo, there are no lines *to* jump back to.

2. In some vns, if you load from a saved file, the backlog may have retained lines from before the loaded point, but both the jump back function and the voice replay function are disabled for those particular lines; only the lines that will be recorded in the backlog from the loaded point onward will have those functions enabled.

------------------

Hope I explained it well enough. I consider a rewind function like this to be invaluable for reimmersion into the visual novel when once sidetracked, so I'd substantially appreciate a distinct tag for it so that I can list and keep track of the visual novels I know with this functionality and so that others are able to do the same.
#1699 by namingmegently
2019-05-29 at 12:02
What if the tag looked something like this?


Tag Name: Backlog Jump


Tag Description:

This visual novel's backlog has jump buttons adjacent to the transcribed lines that allow you to jump back to any line's corresponding scene and play the visual novel from that scene onward.

The jump buttons are usually adjacent to any existing voice replay buttons.

Example: link


Aliases: Jump Back Function, Quick RewindLast modified on 2019-05-29 at 12:03
#1700 by sakurakoi
2019-05-29 at 12:31
This visual novel's backlog has jump buttons adjacent to the transcribed lines that allow you to jump back
No need to be overly specific
This visual novel's backlog has a feature which allows you
For after all, designers may choose to implement the jump like how the voice replay is, by making one click the very line (due to being a larger target).

And they all more or less serve the same purpose. (minimize the need of normal skipping)
...wait, wut?
While that is true for Skip to Choices, obviously, it is as obvious that Scene/Episode Selection ain't for that but to minimize manual saves, like a book having a ToC. While a flow chart serves as that (when interactive) as well as visual aid which reduces trial&error.

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