Tags suggestions/fixes

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#1701 by lywzc
2019-05-30 at 16:01
For after all, designers may choose to implement the jump like how the voice replay is, by making one click the very line (due to being a larger target).
This will be a very bad idea since click the line itself usually play the voice, I myself haven't seen any games that implement the jump this way.

My description will be: A mechanic where you can click a part of the backlog (usually an icon adjacent to the voice replay button) to jump to the scene which the line corresponds.Last modified on 2019-05-30 at 16:04
#1702 by kiru
2019-05-30 at 17:36
^Pretty sure I've seen that before. Voice repeat is a symbol in front of the line in that case. There's no standards with VNs. Unfortunately. To this day I think the Giga engine STILL doesn't skip unread text with ctrl, while almost every other dev allows that, because it is as close to standard as it can be. It's kinda funny.

But really, there's no need for a separate tag for this. Backlog jumps, flowchart jumps.. all the same, really. Flowchart jumps are just less precise but more powerful, and actually useful. (I don't think I ever utilized the backlog jumps..)
#1703 by namingmegently
2019-06-01 at 20:53
Should a new tag for it be put in the queue, or will a conclusive answer be given from a tagmod in this thread?
#1704 by rampaa
2019-06-02 at 06:17
Personally, I am still hoping for works to be tagged with either "Keep Voice on Click" or "No Keep Voice on Click"
Same here.
#1705 by warfoki
2019-06-04 at 10:26
There, Backlog Jump added.
#1706 by otaku1234567891
2019-06-05 at 10:30
I wanted to add a pedophilia tag but had to make Minor Attraction instead because it was already taken as an alias for Sexual Child Abuse. I think it would be more fitting to have child molestation be an alias for it instead of pedophilia as the definition of pedophilia is just the attraction, not acting on it.

Edit: I'd like more of a reason than the one given for why the tag was rejected please. "Just no..." being the only reason makes it seem like it was only rejected for being disgusting, which I'm sure isn't the only reason it wasn't accepted. I agree that it's a very disturbing topic, but there are games that deal with it like Bernd und das Rätsel um Unteralterbach , Paraphore , and I ordered a cute child robot! (I don't like that term. I'm a household android.). I don't understand why it shouldn't be a tag. Tags like Sexual Child Abuse and Pedophile Protagonist exist, but games with those tags don't necessarily have pedophilia as a plot element, and there is no tag that covers that.Last modified on 2019-06-10 at 21:43
#1707 by warfoki
2019-06-14 at 13:57
*sigh* It has nothing to do with whether it's disturbing or not, we have some really fucked up shit tagged in here, that was never the problem. It's just that I've been denying "pedophile" as a tag or a trait for years. (I've only now noticed that one of my fellow colleagues let Pedophile Protagonist through, which I'm actually considering deleting, and just leaving its current child tags.)

This was a discussion years ago on the topic of making lolicon / pedophile traits: t6225

As you can see it went nowhere fast and in the end what happened is that we got Sexual Child Abuse, Sexual Child Abuse and Sex with Children instead, while the idea of adding "lolicon" or "pedophile" traits were dropped altogether. While this was a trait discussion, it also applies to tags.

Here's the main point of mine from all those years ago, that didn't change an iota: lolicon / shotacon and pedophile may have similar meanings, but have entirely different connotations. Yes, technically, on a by the book level, both mean sexual attraction to underage looking characters. But "pedophile" is a "dirty" word, it's been the boogeyman for decades dor every single new legislation, debate, etc that was about ramping up governmental surveillance. Basically, if the topic comes up and you are not immediately proclaiming that pedophiles are worse than Hitler or something, you are immediately accused of being one or enabling child abuse.

There's also the issue that hentai lolis =/= real life children. Real life children are not sexual before their puberty. As in, they have no sexual desire or knowledge of sexuality, hence the reason why they can't legally consent: they simply are incapable to really know what they are consenting to. While we have hentai lolis like Yuna and VNs like Onsen no Otokoyu de Otoko o Asaru Loli Bitch. So basically they have the bodily features of a child, but the sexuality of an adult / late teen, which makes the main reason while pedophilia irl is such a taboo entirely moot.

Because of this there's a fucking world of difference between a VN depicting actual pedophilia as it pertains to the real world and something like Loli Bitch ~Houkago no Yagai Play~. Different genres, target audiences, connotations, the whole nine yard. Hence why I've always been adamant not conflicting the two terms.

The problem is that while irl, in the western world we can easily make a difference (lolicon = otaku fawning over 2D drawings of underage girls, pedophile = sexually attracted to actual underage girls), in game, technically the lolicon character isn't fawning over a drawn character, but an in-universe actual child, making him / her technically a pedophile.

So while the two terms should, in theory, be separated, they simply cannot be, because it's hard to make a clear cut, yet easy to follow distinction, and even we'd make one, my personal experience is that people don't bother reading the description for traits they THINK they know, so the relevant tags would be just misused. Hence the reason why I've never let any of these tags through.

So that "just no..." was basically the written version of an exasperated sigh and me muttering "not this shit again".

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On a completely unrelated note: I'm unsure what to do with Cuckold. On one hand, the name needs to be changed to something like Chastity Cuckold or something, because as is, people are gonna misuse it. Initially I wanted to delete this, saying that netorase covers it but... well, it doesn't really, as the tag has this in the description:
The heroine wouldn't willingly cheat on the protagonist

Cuckolding (and the version with the female submissive, can't remember the name right now) is definitely a dominant - submissive powerplay, where the submissive partner is on the receiving end of a long-term Orgasm Denial, usually complete with the long-term use of a Chastity Belt, while the dominant partner has sex with others, often right in front of the submissive partner, as part of their Orgasm Denial and Consensual Erotic Humiliation. In fact I wouldn't even list it under Netorare, since that implies the lack of consent, while cuckolding is a legit fetish from both parties and the dominant partner has sex with others with the knowledge and consent of the submissive partner. We don't have any tags or traits for this, so on that note, I should let it through. On the other, I have a sneaking suspicion that people will confuse this with Netorare and will use the two tags as interchangeable, which they really are not. I don't really have any idea how could I prevent that though...Last modified on 2019-06-14 at 14:01
#1708 by beliar
2019-06-14 at 15:30
Cuckold something something something
I personally would delete the trait posthaste, unless we want to step into some nasty mess due to the people never reading descriptions.

First of all, Cuckold is a husband, whose wife cheats on him. That is the actual definition of the word. Period. Now if we go by that definition, the term would apply to any NTR VN, where pretty much any character that is subject of NTR would be tagged with this trait, which is redundant as hell.

Now, the term as it is employed in the fetish community has evolved to the point where it is now mostly used exactly as Warfoki has said. It denotes a male partner (female variant is called a Cuckqueen FYI) in a submissive-dominant relationship, where cheating, denial and humiliation is the norm. It's not a dictionary definition though, which would require an extensive description and the trait will still be used incorrectly most of the time.

I personally think that Netorase does cover most of the bases without being nearly as misleading. And while in netorase the female doesn't usually initiate the proceedings as per description, frequently she does take the reins as the relationship proceeds. Moreover, the tag is actually broader and thus more usable, as it can be used in three different cases:
a) humiliation/femdom exists, as per Warfoki's description
b) husband simply enjoys giving his significant other a free pass, while their actual relationship remains pretty vanilla
c) husband is tricked/manipulated by a third party to share his wife and is or eventually becomes submissive to this third party

Moreover, we already have tags Orgasm Denial, Consensual Erotic Humiliation, Penis Cage, which in conjunction with Netorase pretty much cover all the bases as far as the more hardcore forms of cuckolding are concerned.

Hence, my suggestion to Warfoki - the suggestion should be rejected, unless we want to delete the tag 2 years in the future, because everyone and their dog got tagged with it.Last modified on 2019-06-14 at 15:32
#1709 by warfoki
2019-06-14 at 15:48
Yeah, you got a point with that. I still think that it separate fetish from netorare, but there's simply no way to phrase it or name it that wouldn't cause mass mistagging, confusion and massive headache to me some time down the line.Last modified on 2019-06-14 at 15:49
#1710 by rampaa
2019-06-14 at 16:58
"No Keep Voice on Click Option" has been denied with the following reasoning:

Denied. Really now? We are not adding every single niche option as a tag.

I would like to point out that "keep voice on click" option is not niche. It's a pretty common option that most visual novels have these days. That's actually why I created a tag for the non-existence of this option.

As for the tag's merit: Hearing characters' voices is a very important part of the experience and if you read faster than VAs speak (which I assume most people do) than you either have to bear with not hearing the voices after you proceed to the next line or you will have to wait for VA to finish her line. So I reckon the existence (or lack thereof) of this option deserves a tag. Some might want to avoid VNs that lack this option. (Just like how some people may want to avoid VNs with No Auto Function and just like how some people may want to seek out VNs with Backlog Jump)Last modified on 2019-06-14 at 17:00
#1711 by minah
2019-06-15 at 00:31
Can Non-binary Protagonist Option be tweaked? Since it only covers Protagonist Gender Choice scenarios, there's no tag for a non-customizable non-binary protagonist.
#1712 by warfoki
2019-06-15 at 01:06
Should I just change it to Non-binary Protagonist (without the Option part) and remove it from under Protagonist Gender Choice or is this a common enough thing that we'd better off with creating a new Non-binary Protagonist tag and putting Non-binary Protagonist Option under it?

@rampaa: So this is basically Voice Replay in that VNs after a certain cut-off point mostly have it, older ones don't. The issue with this is that pretty much nobody will consistently remember tagging it, since most people won't even bother to check if the option is there at all. We are not going to tag every single inconsequential option that are somewhat common among VNs. It's just pointless and based on my experience so far, hardly anyone ever will bother to actually use them.Last modified on 2019-06-15 at 01:09
#1713 by minah
2019-06-15 at 01:21
Should I just change it to Non-binary Protagonist (without the Option part) and remove it from under Protagonist Gender Choice

Yes, that was my thought. I don't think it's common enough to need two separate tags, but in any case I think having both the Non-Binary Protagonist and Protagonist Gender Choice tags would imply that non-binary is an available gender choice.
#1714 by warfoki
2019-06-15 at 01:34
Hmm, it's actually used more than I thought. I'll just do the child tag thing instead. Tomorrow though, I'm dead tired right now.
#1715 by donkeyskin
2019-06-15 at 08:31
there's a typo in NEET Potagonist
#1716 by warfoki
2019-06-15 at 10:38
Huh, I just realized that I actually deleted non-binary protagonist and trait like 4 years ago based on how vaguely defined and prone to misuse it is. That one was actually submitted by you. Well, whatever, I'll add it and we'll see. If it remains in use for mostly OELVNs dealing with LGBTQ issues (those are pretty much the only stories utilizing dedicated non-binary characters), then it stays. If traps / futas / genderless characters get tagged en-masse instead, I'll purge it.

Edit: There, reenabled your old tag.

@Donkeyskin: If you meant the extra comma before "or", I fixed it. Can't see anything else wrong with it. To make my life easier, next time please copy the typo itself in your post as well.Last modified on 2019-06-15 at 11:41
#1717 by donkeyskin
2019-06-15 at 11:14
@warfoki I apologise, I meant to say that the typo is literally in the name "NEET Potagonist" (it's missing a r) and not in the description.
#1718 by warfoki
2019-06-15 at 11:36
And now I feel like an absolute moron... -.-" Fixed it.Last modified on 2019-06-15 at 11:36
#1719 by skorpiondeath
2019-06-15 at 12:17
I warfoki the tag Breast Press was denied because:
DENIED: Judging by the amount of trait entries, this appears to not be common enough to warrant its own tag.

I don't think the motivation is still valid, what about restoring the tag?Last modified on 2019-06-15 at 12:17
#1720 by warfoki
2019-06-15 at 12:23
Agreed, restored it.

Generally, since a HUGE chunk of the database has sexual content and a lot of people are using the site to find fetishistic content, sexual tags should have trait counterparts, traits tag counterparts. Reason being is that you currently cannot do a mixed search. You cannot search for VNs that feature characters with a specific trait.

When it comes to character traits, clothes, personality traits, etc. then sure, most of those should be fine as trait-only, but pretty much everything under Engages in (Sexual) and Subject of (Sexual) should have a tag counterpart, and everything under Sexual Content should have trait counterparts. I know that's not the case currently and one of these days I'll spend a couple hours fixing that.Last modified on 2019-06-15 at 12:24
#1721 by skorpiondeath
2019-06-15 at 12:30
Thank you.

The same thing happend to Eating Stray Pubic Hairs. What about restoring that too and align it to his trait counterpart: Sexual Hair Eating
#1722 by warfoki
2019-06-15 at 12:33
Done.
#1723 by minah
2019-06-15 at 13:13
Huh, I just realized that I actually deleted non-binary protagonist and trait like 4 years ago based on how vaguely defined and prone to misuse it is. That one was actually submitted by you. Well, whatever, I'll add it and we'll see. If it remains in use for mostly OELVNs dealing with LGBTQ issues (those are pretty much the only stories utilizing dedicated non-binary characters), then it stays. If traps / futas / genderless characters get tagged en-masse instead, I'll purge it.

Huh, I forgot about that. Thanks.
#1724 by rampaa
2019-06-15 at 20:39
@warfoki: I don't think it's inconsequential. It affects my VN reading experience more than No Auto Function or Backlog Jump ever could and those are tags already.

Of course there's a chance that people may not bother using it, as you've said, but that's just the worst case scenario. I hardly see the downside of having the tag. If it's not used at all, it can simply be removed in the future. I implore you to reconsider.
#1725 by warfoki
2019-06-15 at 21:12
*sigh* Whatever, it's not like it'll cause too much trouble, at worst I'll end up purging later on. Reinstated now.

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