Tags suggestions/fixes

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#1726 by skorpiondeath
2019-06-16 at 01:24
I'm proposing some changes to existing tags:
- Move Body Writing under BDSM like his counterpart trait Body Writing
- tag Clamps should be also under BDSM like Clamps (BDSM)Last modified on 2019-06-16 at 01:25
#1727 by warfoki
2019-06-16 at 11:38
Done.
#1728 by skorpiondeath
2019-06-20 at 12:19
@warfoki: some other changes to align tags to their counterpart traits:
- Armbinder should be also under Sexual Devices like his trait counterpart Armbinder
- Breast Press should be also under Sexual Devices like his trait counterpart Breast Press
- Cock and Ball Torture Devices should be also under Sexual Devices like his trait counterpart Cock and Ball Torture Devices
- Spreader Bar should be also under Sexual Devices like his trait counterpart Spreader Bar
- X-Cross should be also under Sexual Devices like his trait counterpart X-Cross

One last thing, I got doubts about Erotic Electrostimulation since the tag is about the sexual activity while the trait Electrostimulator (Sexual) is about the device...probably if would be better to align in a way or another
#1729 by warfoki
2019-06-23 at 12:14
Right, I put all of those things under Sexual Devices.

I was wondering about the discrepancy between Erotic Electrostimulation and Electrostimulator (Sexual) as well. Electrostimulator (Sexual) specifically is for those electrostimulator devices with applicable pads. Erotic Electrostimulation is for anything that involves the eroticized application of electric shocks. Now my initial idea was to make the trait less specific and instead of it being there as a sexual device trait, it would go under BDSM for any and all erotic electric play, regardless of what device (if any at all) is used.

The problem is Electric Shock. While it's technically not a sexual trait and is under Injury, in practice it's been used as the trait counterpart of Erotic Electrostimulation for years. So, if I make a new trait counterpart for that, Electric Shock is going to be either very redundant (the trait version of Erotic Electrostimulation definitely should be under Subject of (Sexual), and if I put it under Electric Shock, it would probably appear next to the non-sexual subject of traits because of how the database works, so I cannot really make it a child trait like that, which would mean that technically tagging both wouldn't be redundant, except practically it very much would) or very mistagged (if I turned the current Electric Shock into a non-sexual trait).

There's the option to turn Electric Shock into a generic counterpart for Erotic Electrostimulation, move it under BDSM and make Electrostimulator (Sexual) its child trait, but that could potentially mistag characters in retrospect, since there are some (a small minority that is) characters in there who suffer a non-eroticized electric shock. I could just turn Electrostimulator (Sexual) into a more generic counterpart of Erotic Electrostimulation, like I originally wanted, but then we are back to the issue of essentially using two separate traits for the same damn thing.Last modified on 2019-06-23 at 12:16
#1730 by skorpiondeath
2019-06-23 at 17:05
Vaginal + Anal Fisting is a meta-trait now and cannot be added.

Electric shock is a messy subject like the spanking, erotic spanking, erotic beating traits....
Probably like "Fire Torture" and "Piercing Torture" an "Electric Torture" could exist.
The fact torture in VN is most of the time connected to a sexual scene doesn't help at all.
#1731 by skorpiondeath
2019-06-23 at 17:30
Anal Birth was denied because:
DENIED: Deemed not frequent enough to warrant its own tag

maybe it can be brought back from the dead since his counterpart trait Anal Birth has some uses.
#1732 by warfoki
2019-06-23 at 18:02
Done.
#1733 by skorpiondeath
2019-06-24 at 20:56
Is it possible to align tags sexual position like the counterpart trait tree Sex Positions?
Also is it too much to propose a Anal + Vaginal Object Penetration and Anal + Vaginal Tentacle Penetration on line with the newly approved Vaginal + Anal Fisting and the recent introduction of the single hole multiple (object,tentacle) penetration?
#1734 by warfoki
2019-06-24 at 23:55
See t12504, I intend to align the entire tag / trait system a bit down the line. If you have specific tags you need aligned right the hell now, I do them once posted here, otherwise I'll go through everything systematically once I get there.

...I have a feeling this is getting out of hand, but at the same time those tags DO make sense I suppose, so sure, add them.
#1735 by skorpiondeath
2019-06-25 at 00:22
Sorry warfoki no need to haste it then... just make it your way at your own pace. I was trying to help so I'm gonna post my suggestions on the new thread.

...I have a feeling this is getting out of hand
I bet it won't since I will stop after that...
#1736 by namingmegently
2019-06-25 at 16:08
Since this isn't limited to just a few users but is instead a widespread issue, thought I'd ask this burning question here: Why is the Female Protagonist tag still being methodically added right alongside the Otome Game tag (and often with the exact same weight) when Otome Game has been a child tag of Female Protagonist for more than 8 years now as evidenced by t1302.6?

While on the subject of the Otome Game tag, why is its definition limited to it having a CENTRAL FOCUS on developing a relationship with one or more male characters. That emphasis right there is the reason why I'm reluctant to apply this tag since most otome games I've played don't have any such "focus". That aspect of it is often sidelined in favor of the plot. Why can't the definition just say: "A game with a female protagonist who is able to develop a relationship with one or more male characters, oftentimes through their own exclusive routes." and leave "sole focus" out of it?

----

I really think we need a clear "Route Selection" tag as opposed to the ambiguity of choosing between the Scenario Selection tag (which I've been using maybe incorrectly for explicit route selection menus) and Hero(ine) Selection (which I've been using for "choose who to spend 1 in-game day with" menus which often overlap with Map Movement).

---

The last sentence in Twin Bodyjob's description, six words in, seems faulty to me.
#1737 by warfoki
2019-06-25 at 16:38
Dunno, people double tagging things is nothing new and since it's mostly harmless, I don't much care either.

As for the Otome game: without that bit, the only real qualifier differentiating the tag from just Female Protagonist would be the "aimed at a female audience" bit, which is subjective as hell. And while I'm admittedly not the most biggest fan of genre, to my understanding Otome games all have dedicated routes to romance separate heroes, so going after guys romantically IS an unifying theme among them. So I don't see any issue here.

Ehh, yeah, those tags could use some (a lot of clarification), unfortunately since their use is all over the damn place, I have no idea how to salvage them without just deleting both and making clearer versions on them.

Err, yeah, the moron (aka. me) making that copied most of the description from twin blowjob and forgot to edit that bit out, oops. Fixed now.
#1738 by dk382
2019-06-25 at 19:22
A category of games possessing a unifying theme does not necessarily they all have that theme as a central focus. By this, I mean all (or almost all?) otome games have male romantic interests, but that doesn't mean those romantic interests have to be the primary focus of the game. This is similar to how many male-demographic games with female romantic interests have story elements that are of greater or equal importance to the romances. I agree the otome tag's description could use some work. The rewording suggestion in #1736 seems valid.Last modified on 2019-06-25 at 22:33
#1739 by lunaterra
2019-06-25 at 20:14
The problem is, there's not really an agreement as to what an otome game is, especially in the West. Is a game with only a single love interest an otome game? (eg Aloners) Is a game which allows you to pick the MC's gender an otome game? (eg Hustle Cat) Is a game which has mostly female love interests but also has male love interests an otome game? (eg Ghosts of Miami) Is a game which only has female love interests but is aimed at women an otome game? (eg Scrambled: Syd City) Is a game which doesn't have explicit romance but features a female protagonist and a lot of attractive guys and subtext between them an otome game? (eg UtaPri Shining Live)

For what it's worth, this is the definition that r/otomegames has settled on ( link )

What are the requirements?

* It needs visuals (ie. character sprites, CGs, backgrounds, etc).
* The protagonist or MC (Main Character) needs to be female (including trans MtF). There are some games where you can choose to change the gender of the MC and it's fine as long as there is an option to be female with mostly male RIs/LIs.
* There has to be choices where it will affect the ending (for stat raising games, this would work too - meaning that stat-raising can push the story towards the appropriate ending).
* There has to be mostly male love interests. (There can be a few (1-2) female LI/RIs, but if it totals to 50%, then discussions can take place in a designated thread we will have every Saturday starting the next week).

The male RIs must at least be greater or of equal amount in total to the other genders if there are more than 3 total RIs. For games with 3 and below total RIs/LIs, there has to be more or have all of them be male RIs.

Examples :

2 male RIs, 1 female RI and 1 non binary RI.

3 male RIs, 2 female RI (including trans MtF, to match the MC rule we’ve set) and 1 genderfluid RI.

5 male RIs and 2 genderfluid RIs.

2 male RIs and 1 female RI.

* Story progression and romance need to be just as important or that romancing the LI/RI is just as important as the story itself.
* There can be some friendship routes too, but too many and it will fall out of the otome games category again.
* a Story (and of course, a lot of reading).
* Music/BGMs/SEs are optional but deemed extremely important to set the mood of the scenes
* Character sprites (especially for the RIs/LIs, Protagonist/MC is optional) that change expressions

-

...though this would exclude kinetic novels. (There aren't many tagged with both "Otome Game" and "Kinetic Novel" though: link )Last modified on 2019-06-25 at 20:21
#1740 by dk382
2019-06-25 at 22:26
Yeah, that strikes me as overly strict. vndb tags by design are written simply and are meant to be interpreted with a degree of common sense. There's a "you'll know it when you see it" aspect to our tagging (hence the voting system to ensure that the community perception prevails..... in theory). The point isn't to classify the games in our database as one genre or the other, but to give you ideas of what to expect from them. So quibbling over the precise terms of a definition doesn't seem very productive.

To rephrase namingmegently's recommendation to be a bit more inclusive: "A game with a female protagonist where most or all of the love interests are male characters, oftentimes possessing their own exclusive routes."

Perhaps you can add a note to account for games with selectable protagonist gender. "Games where the protagonist's gender is selectable can be considered otome games so long as the male love interests are the most numerous and prominent."

This covers a lot of ground, including kinetic novels (which I don't see any reason to specifically exclude. is this something the otome community is against?). Beyond this, the debate of what exactly is or isn't an otome game can be conducted through the tag voting system, imo.Last modified on 2019-06-26 at 01:08
#1741 by kiru
2019-06-26 at 09:07
Unfortunately we still have too many tags misused. And worse: Traits. Those are simply settable and have the same issues.

It seems like a major amount of users here don't know what Twin Tails are. Including vndb itself, because it gives this style child-traits. (Honestly, it's already implied by the name of the traits in question, that they can't be children of it) The tag description Twin Tail Heroine is actually correct. The trait description could work, because it's actually important that it's two TAILS (like pony tails) and not anything else. Yet it's also a child of Ponytail Heroine , which also doesn't make sense. These two hairstyles are completely and utterly different. Why the heck would someone searching for ponytails want twin tail styles as well?

It's complicated. Though in this case a start would be to fix this mess with hairstyles. You can't make them children from each other. Ever. They are different styles. You never want another style if you are searching for a specific one. Doesn't solve when it's used wrong like with for example Agatsu Nayu though. The most commonly wrong use of this trait is that there simply are two "tails" of sorts, without the other requirement to be fulfilled. Only two tails. The entire hair needs to be bundled into two tails.
#1742 by lywzc
2019-06-26 at 14:38
Usagimimi Heroine should be named "Usamimi Heroine" and change its description to

For games featuring heroines with rabbitlike ears or anything that would remind it as their signature part or appearance, such as a hairband with rabbit ears or her hair being shaped exactly like one.

Please do not mix with bunnygirl tag; almost every bunnygirl has usamimi, but not every usamimi is a bunnygirl... And bunnygirl is a child tag of Non-human Heroine, so it's not suitable for human girls with usamimi.

Bunnygirl Heroine should remove its NOTE.

These are done to parallel Nekomimi Heroine, Catgirl Heroine and Inumimi Heroine, Doggirl Heroine as I don't see any particular reason to treat these two specially.Last modified on 2019-06-26 at 14:40
#1743 by warfoki
2019-06-26 at 20:13
Well, the problem is that unlike cat- and dog-girl, which are pretty much anime-only, bunnygirls have a real life versions, which is the exact opposite of our tag, so I'm sure it'll get misused. Also, why remove the note? From what I understand it still applies.
#1744 by eacil
2019-06-26 at 20:46
Why not use Rabbit Heroine or Bunny Heroine and delete Bunnygirl Heroine as there is no way it won't be abused to tag, you know... (human) bunnygirls?
#1745 by warfoki
2019-06-26 at 21:51
Hmm, renaming it as Rabbit Girl, with bunnygirl as an alias could help. It's not as mistagged as a I expected it to be, here are the first 10 results when you filter by the tag.

Bukatsu Kikaku - All I see is human heroines, like 2 with a bunnygirl-headband. Mistagged.

Bunny Trap ~Usagi wa Ecchi Shinai to Shinjaun Desu~ - Clearly visible bunny-headband. Mistagged.

Gachi de Itsudemo Hatsujouchuu ~Mannen Hatsujouki de Sakarippanashi na Usamimi Musume no Mendou o Miru Koto ni Narimashita~ - Seems to be actual ears from the image. Correctly tagged.

Hani x Bani - Correctly tagged.

Koushin Houjuu ~Usamimi Choukyou Shiroku Nureru Nyotai-tachi~ - Looks like real ears, but all of the relevant heroines are tagged with Bunny Dress and none of them are tagged with Kemonomimi, so unsure.

Koutei Heika ni Narou! - No idea, based on the images, this can go both way. Probably correct though.

Maid in Bunny - Seems correct.

Maternity Monsters! ~Junjou na Inma to Seijun na Fujun Isei Kouyuu!~ - Seems correct.

No 3 Usagigari -R18- - Obviously a bunnygirl costume, mistagged.

Reijou Club ~Dajoku no Ryoshuu-tachi~ - Seems like real ears from the pictures alone, but looking at the character pages, nobody is tagged with Kemonomimi, but some of them are tagged with Kemonomimi Headband. Either Bunnygirl Heroine is wrong, or the character pages are, could go both ways based on the screenshots on the page. Still, more character pages vs one VN page, so probably mistagged.

Results:
3 surely mistagged
1 probably mistagged
1 unsure
1 probably correct
4 surely correct

Not a great ratio, but could be worse and since only 90+ VNs are tagged, maybe this can be salvaged by a manual checkup.Last modified on 2019-06-26 at 22:12
#1746 by eacil
2019-06-26 at 22:18
Looks bad. Also, it could reflect the actual ratio of bunnygirl human/kemono, meaning it would clearly be mistagged. Not sure if I made myself clear.
Also I want to fix my suggestion, it should not be renamed Rabbit/Bunny Heroine but Rabbitgirl Heroine. Rabbit Heroine could be a Bambi nukige with a Thumper route.
#1747 by warfoki
2019-06-26 at 22:29
Rabbit Heroine could be a Bambi nukige with a Thumper route.

Thanks for that mental image... -.-
#1748 by eacil
2019-06-26 at 23:03
If you liked it, I know a very disturbing set of two Winnie the Pooh doujinshi. Worth reading imo.
#1749 by mysterycorgi
2019-06-27 at 02:49
I'm having trouble with a tag, I'm not sure if it exists and I'm looking in the wrong places or what. Specifically for Tasokare Hotel, there is a character who is a rapist and murderer. And I'd like to tag the character for that (violent criminal? or something?) or at least tag the story as including past crimes of this character that is gone over in-depth (as a part of the puzzle/mystery solving aspect) but not necessarily explicit. And also because it's in the past I don't feel that Rape is applicable. Would love input/thoughts.
#1750 by warfoki
2019-06-27 at 03:35
Hmm, as far as I can see this game doesn't have heroines / heroes in the traditional sense. since we only have detailed tags for those, I'm afraid you can't tag this. The one thing you can do, is to find this character on the list of characters and add the relevant traits there (make sure you set the proper spoiler setting).

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