Tags suggestions/fixes

Posted in

#2226 by rampaa
2020-03-15 at 02:48
@Eacil, my understanding of the matter is as follows:
Unavoidable Death of Heroine: No matter what you do, at least one heroine will die in all "routes".
Only Avoidable Death of Heroine: You can prevent all heroine deaths with the correct choices for all "routes".
Avoidable Death of Heroine: For anything in-between.

I think you are wrong because the heroine is alive in the true ending so the VN should be tagged as Only Avoidable Death of Heroine
If the game had only one route and if that route had at least one good ending where all of those heroines are alive, I would agree. But if there are several routes, and if all of those heroines cannot stay alive in all of those routes, then I'm inclined to disagree.Last modified on 2020-03-15 at 03:09
#2227 by eacil
2020-03-15 at 03:48
You are saying that Unavoidable Death of Heroine could apply to a VN with two heroines and two routes, if one heroine dies in her own route but is alive in the other one, even if the choice that makes the routes branching is the decision that will lead to the heroine's death in her route.Last modified on 2020-03-15 at 03:48
#2228 by rampaa
2020-03-15 at 04:02
If what you are saying is:
Heroine A dies in Route A but Heroine B survives.
Heroine B dies in Route B but Heroine A survives.

then yes, I think Unavoidable Death of Heroine would apply.Last modified on 2020-03-15 at 05:15
#2229 by krko
2020-03-15 at 17:54
Would tag for corrupted magical girl costumes be acceptable? Specifically, the corrupted costumes magical girls get after Corruption of Characters happens to them. Examples of games with it are Gedou Mahou Shoujo Rinne ~Akuin Akka~ and TS Mahou Shoujo Nao!. Alternatively, it could be generalized to Evil Costume (Uniform?) Switch and cover all cases where the Hero(ine) changes to a lewder outfit when they change sides to evil. This would include Venus Blood -Frontier-'s Freya
#2230 by fuukanou
2020-03-18 at 06:00
For Non-explicit Nudity Only can it be clarified in the tag description as how far you have to go for it to count as nudity?
#2231 by beliar
2020-03-18 at 17:05
What do you mean by saying "how far"?
Do you mean the lower baseline, where non-nudity becomes nudity? In that case, I meant the display of naked breasts and or genitals. Skimpy clothing shouldn't be considered nudity for the purposes of the tag.
If you meant the upper baseline, then I think it's pretty clear where simple nudity transitions into sexual acts.
#2232 by fuukanou
2020-03-18 at 19:56
#2231, I get that but the problem is you can "kinda-sorta" show nudity. Is it still nudity if it's censored/obscured (e.g. by the magical opaque rays of light you occasionally see)Last modified on 2020-03-18 at 19:57
#2233 by beliar
2020-03-18 at 20:01
I personally wouldn't consider cases where we don't actually see nudity to belong under this tag. Not sure how Skorpion feels about that, but I would rather not include sexually suggestive material as this tag's definition.
#2234 by rampaa
2020-03-22 at 00:49
Lolicon Protagonist's description should be changed and it should not be a child tag of Pedophile Protagonist. VNDB does NOT (and should not) describe a loli character as a child, it's only about their body type, see Loli Heroine's description. If the term loli denotes a body type and not an age interval, then it also follows that a "lolicon" character is a character who's into that body type and not necessarily into children.
#2235 by ginseigou
2020-03-22 at 13:21
Since we all agreed that Ojousama is a wealthy heiress, I don't understand why mods still not made it a child tag/trait of rich protagonist and wealthy.

@2234 Isn't lolicon a Japanese term for pedophile? Pretty sure the eponymous novel's protagonist was a pedophile.
#2236 by rampaa
2020-03-22 at 23:40
#2235 You don't even bother reading other people's arguments, do you?

Pedophile: An individual who is sexually attracted to prepubescent children aged 13 or younger.
Lolicon: An individual who is sexually attracted to lolis.
Loli: A girl with a childlike appearance. Age matters not one bit when it comes to classification of a loli. This is only about appearance.

Kuki Monshiro:
Is this character a loli? Yes, because she has a childlike figure.
Is she a child? No, she's 18 years old.
Would the protagonist be a lolicon for sexually liking her? Yes. Because she's a loli.
Would the protagonist be a pedophile for sexually liking her? No. Sexually liking her doesn't fit the description of pedophilia.

Miketa Mako:
Is this character a loli? Yes, because she has a childlike figure.
Is she a child? Yes, she's 9 years old.
Would the protagonist be a lolicon for sexually liking her? Yes. Because she's a loli.
Would the protagonist be a pedophile for sexually liking her? Yes. Because she's 9 years old.

Catharsia Zugonysera:
Is this character a loli? No, she does not have a childlike figure.
Is she a child? Yes, she's 12 years old.
Would the protagonist be a lolicon for sexually liking her? No. Because she's not a loli.
Would the protagonist be a pedophile for sexually liking her? Yes. Because she's 12 years old.

So, no, those terms are not one and the same. Also this difference is the is the entire reason why we have a separate tag like Sex Involving Children. If there was no such difference, we would not need Sex Involving Children when we had a tag like Lolicon.
#2237 by rampaa
2020-03-24 at 04:50
Rape should be made non-applicable.
#2238 by rampaa
2020-03-28 at 22:23
Protagonist's Daughter as a Heroine and Protagonist's Mother as a Heroine should be made searchable.Last modified on 2020-03-28 at 22:42
#2239 by hshe
2020-04-03 at 04:32
Heya, would it be possible for someone to add this image as an example image for the anal vore tag?

Image: link

Source: link
#2240 by skorpiondeath
2020-04-03 at 06:55
@2239: done
#2241 by hshe
2020-04-03 at 13:38
Ty!
#2242 by usagi
2020-04-03 at 15:26
#2234
Did you read the tag's description, did you? Here it is - important bit for you again:
While there is some difference between these definitions in real life - there isn't inside visual novels (or in Japanese culture).
It's perfectly sensible tag- I don't see a problem with it. Readers will know perfectly well in what cases they should apply this tag after all. And this is what only matters. VNDB isn't for us here to provide cure for someone's wounded self-esteem. It's to provide accurate and neutral information - and that is exactly what it is doing - unless you can find an example of vn with "lolicon" protagonist with aversion to children.

Kuki Monshiro:
Is this character a loli? Yes, because she has a childlike figure.
Is she a child? No, she's 18 years old.
Would the protagonist be a lolicon for sexually liking her? Yes. Because she's a loli.
Would the protagonist be a pedophile for sexually liking her? No. Sexually liking her doesn't fit the description of pedophilia.
Again, by tag's description
Do not use this tag for protagonist's behavior in some occasional loli heroine's route.
it won't make Naoe Yamato a pedophile. Again, did you read the tag's description carefully? You can say in case there were multiple "18 y.o." loli characters like that with its own routes - it would be another matter. But having a gall to defend such a character in that case is extremely hypocritical, IMO.

Catharsia Zugonysera:
Is this character a loli? No, she does not have a childlike figure.
Is she a child? Yes, she's 12 years old.
Would the protagonist be a lolicon for sexually liking her? No. Because she's not a loli.
Would the protagonist be a pedophile for sexually liking her? Yes. Because she's 12 years old.
Well, that's an interesting example. Here you go - special tag for such cases exists Oppai Loli Heroine, tuturuu )) That, and in real life medical research of pedophilia it's a known fact that attraction to females with developed secondary sexual characteristics is perfectly normal. Such cases are being determined as ephebophilia and they considered as variation of norm. From medical point of view it's natural reaction of males when they see a body ready to reproduce physically - irrelevant whether they know about actual age or not. The last is differs from law's point of view - but medical and juridical definitions of pedophilia are vastly different. Still, only medical concepts should matter for us since juridical ones varies from country to country and they are not about normalcy or deviations - they are about law only. In fact you can't label anyone as pedophile from juridical point of view at all - it's not their field of expertise. You can label someone as criminal - and that's it. Labeling anybody attracted to 17y.o. as pedophile, for example - from medical point of view is a nonsense. You, on other hand, are conveniently using juridical definitions when talking about 18 y.o. border - and instantly forgetting about juridical concepts when talking about attraction to 2d (despite that in many countries lolicon is considered a form of child porn by the law). Hypocrisy at its best.
Therefore, what you said above is simply wrong. Because:
"Would the protagonist be a lolicon for sexually liking her? Yes. Because she is oppai loli"
"Would the protagonist be a pedophile for sexually liking her? No. Because she is not having a child-like, flatchested body attractive to pedophiles"

Also this difference is the is the entire reason why we have a separate tag like Sex Involving Children. If there was no such difference, we would not need Sex Involving Children when we had a tag like Lolicon.
This tag is superfluous and is not needed IMO. It tries too much to please artificial definitions of western law and culture instead of being completely neutral and just showing what is inside a vn. That said I can see it as the tag for determining vns with characters who states their age directly - for those very niche crowd with numbers fetish. So you can't say it's not without its uses after all.Last modified on 2020-04-03 at 16:25
#2243 by rampaa
2020-04-03 at 15:54
Did you read the tag's description
I did. It's bull crap all in all. I believe the bit you've quoted is talking about 2D vs 3D distinction that exist in Western culture but I am not talking about that distinction anyway. Did you bother reading what I've written at t3617.2236? Can you enlighten me why we have a different tag like Sex Involving Children when we have tags like Shotacon and Lolicon, if they are one and the same? Did you ever bother to read Sex Involving Children's description?

It's to provide accurate and neutral information
Your utterly worthless jabs aside, that's exactly what I am going for.

unless you can find an example of vn with "lolicon" protagonist with aversion to children
Re-read what I wrote a few more times and maybe you will understand a lolicon does not *need* to have aversion to children, I never claimed that. The point is not all lolis are children and not all children are lolis. So the term lolicon and pedophile *are* different concepts, even though they have a huge overlap. Is this so hard to comprehend?

The status quo cannot be maintained, because it makes zero sense. Lolicon has been denied, because it says "lolicons = peadophiles". But Lolicon Protagonist is under Pedophile Protagonist, how the hell should I make a sense out of this? Add to that we have Sex Involving Children, which clearly indicates we do make the distinction between children and loli(con)/shota(con) concepts.
#2244 by skorpiondeath
2020-04-03 at 16:17
@2243: we will figure out how to deal with this, beside warfoki is back I guess he will answer to this too.

Everything else has already been submitted to him like promised (didn't forget :P) you will hear from him soon, just be patient guysLast modified on 2020-04-03 at 16:18
#2245 by usagi
2020-04-03 at 16:23
#2243
See my post above again - I edited it and added answers to your questions, I hope.
#2246 by naiohoras
2020-04-03 at 16:26
#2244 that will be hell of a work for him... oh well.
#2247 by rampaa
2020-04-03 at 17:02
You can say in case there were multiple "18 y.o." loli characters like that with its own routes - it would be another matter. But having a gall to defend such a character in that case is extremely hypocritical, IMO.
I was obviously not talking about Naoe Yamato himself. I thought anyone would be able to understand what I was getting at but I guess I will have to spell it out: Imagine a game where you have a harem of legal lolis, or a game with Only a Single Heroine who happens to be a legal loli. Now, would the protagonist be a pedophile in either of those cases? The "accurate and neutral" answer is no. Would he be a lolicon? The "accurate and neutral" answer is yes.

Also I find it funny that you think not calling a character a pedophile is about "defending" them. lol

Here you go - special tag for such cases exists Oppai Loli Heroine
You can extract her breasts and implant a flat board as a replacement but she still would not be a loli. I wasn't saying her boobs are too big to be a loli, I was saying she does not look like a loli overall. If you disagree, I am sure you can find some examples you would agree yourself.

Such cases are being determined as ephebophilia
Ephebophilia is used for teen bodies that is in the age range of 15 to 19.

You, on other hand, are conveniently using juridical definitions when talking about 18 y.o. border
No, I am not. I could have given a 409 year-old (Toudou Chitose) as an example or 17-year-old as an example (Kobayashi Ran) and my point would still stand. I just gave a 18-year-old example to avoid nitpick but here I am.

Therefore, what you said above is simply wrong.
Nope. Read this: link
I will quote some related bits for you:

with the diagnostic criteria for the disorder extending the cut-off point for prepubescence to age 13

The criteria also indicate that the subject should be 16 or older and that the child or children they fantasize about are at least five years younger than them

I will give you a hint: Inoue Jun (who you gleefully call a pedophile) is not 5 years older than Amakasu Mayo, but he is still a lolicon for being into her.

Anyway, I will be waiting for Warfoki's answer for this matter because a discussion between us is not likely to result in anything anyway, so meh.Last modified on 2020-04-03 at 17:05
#2248 by skorpiondeath
2020-04-03 at 17:07
Actually keep the discussion guys I'm here with popcorns :D It's nice to watch from the outside.
Beside jokes I guess that discussing is never bad or "meh" even if you don't reach an agreement, it will help mods to take into account every opinion an that's not bad per se.Last modified on 2020-04-03 at 17:08
#2249 by warfoki
2020-04-03 at 18:44
Oh boy, this will be a long one... So, I went back a skimmed over everything since the 1st of March. I'm not going to address every single bit since then, otherwise I'll be here all day. If I don't address something, that's most likely because I either don't find it that important or because Beliar or Skorpiondeath have already handled it in a way that I find perfectly agreeable. It's also possible that I missed it, if you think that to be the case, please make a post pointing out the issue. Again, I skimmed over everything, haven't read every single comment in detail, that would ne over 200 comments people, let's be reasonable here. When I'm responding I list the post number and the user who mostly brought the topic in focus. I'm not necessarily replying to the quoted post alone, rather the whole discussion. Now then, let's crack on, shall we?

@2022 Ginseigou

I agree that No Common Sense Heroine is far from the best. Problem is, it's 10 years old, the tags back there were a whole lot less organised or precise. Changing it will retroactively mistag a whole lot of things, and unlike ero tags, checking the correctness of these requires more effort than quickly clicking through the related exhentai gallery. As such significant changes to it is not really feasible. if that is REALLY necessary, then the safe option is nuking it and making new, better described tags. HOWEVER, considering that this tag hasn't been complain about before and usually works, I really don't see the point in putting in the effort to do that. Not when we have a lot more widely used and underdefined tags from this early era of VNDB that need attention a lot more.
____________________

@2026 Naiohoras

Not a fan of long tag names either, but sometimes they are needed. Shortening Protagonist's Full Sister as a Heroine like you proposed would lead to misuse and practical functionality > aesthetics. So no, it stays as is.
____________________

@2046 Rampaa

I think one aspect that pretty much all of you have missed is that Imouto-type Heroine is NOT an actual sister of the protagonist. This tag was initially made for characters who ACT like little sisters, but are definitely NOT actual sisters. So little sisters were never meant to be tagged with this, even if they acted like a little sister (the hell that was even supposed to mean). This tag is yet again a fundamentally flawed one from the early days of the database. Flawed in two ways exactly: the tag does not define what it means by "acts and gets treated like a little sister". Thanks to that if a heroine calls the protagonist Onii-chan semi regularly, this tag will eventually get slapped on the VN. And two, this tag gets used on ACTUAL sisters, despite never being meant for that. This is where the Golden Rule of "nobody reads the descriptions if they think they know what's the tag for based on its name alone" comes in. Conclusion: this is unsalvageable. Delete. Make replacement trait with a better name and description if necessary (of which I have some serious doubts).
____________________

@2094 Ginseigou

About the Ojousama Protagonist... First of all, I can't believe that this discussion went on for about 100 posts, like what the hell? This discussion also gives me a headache, fucking hell. -.-" Anyway, let's try to tackle this beast here...

We are not going to make a difference between rich and wealthy. Unless you are writing a paper on economics or something, absolutely nobody is making this distinction in colloquial English and the two words are treated as synonyms. It's like poisonous and venomous. In specialist lingo there is a difference, in colloquial use there isn't and we are not going to be so elitist as to expect everyone to know the distinction, especially considering that a sizable portion of our userbase uses English as a second language (myself included).

*sigh* It's hard to make decisions like this when I'm not all that familiar with Japenese culture and don't speak the language. So i did what I could in this situation and googled the damn thing. Spent about an hour reading description on all sort of sites and generally came away with this: most sites focusing on real-life Japanese culture and etiquette describe the term as the formal way to address the daughter of a wealthy and influential person. No mention of any attitudes. However quite literally every site that was approaching the term from the manga / anime, well generally the otaku side put importance on character traits. In fact majority of the sites basically used the TV Tropes definition pretty much verbatim or with slight modifications. And since we aren't looking at this from the perspective of real life culture, I don't see the point of breaking the consensus on this one. As such I think we should use a similar definition as TV Tropes.
____________________

@2115 Tahu157

This kinda got lost in the midst of all the heated arguments at the time, but I think it's a decent idea. Splitting hairs like that would be unnecessary, but a No Cover Art could be useful maybe. This is kinda for everyone though: if you think a tag would be useful, don't just toss the idea in the thread, that can get easily overlooked. Use the "create new tag" function to submit it, that way we cannot ignore it and it will be addressed... eventually.
____________________

@2187 Funnerific

Yeah, the child tags of Death of Heroine (and its hero counterpart) were always somewhat headache inducing. Now, I KNOW that this is STILL not clearly codified in the descriptions and that's mostly my fault (though I inherited these tags) but this is how I always interpreted it:

Unavoidable Death of Heroine - At least one of the heroines will die in their own route. You cannot reach a real (non game-over style) endign on their route without them dying. Before someone asks, no this doesn't necessarily imply a tragic ending. magic can be involved so that she is brought back. Maybe she is not human and can be reborn like a phoenix. Protagonist can die too and the story continues in some form of afterlife. And so on.

Avoidable Death of Heroine - At least one of the heroines can die, but this is avoidable on her own route. Think of something like Divinity: Original Sin 2. You have a whole lot of characters in the prologue to pick from as companions, whoever you don't pick won't leave with you and as a direct result will die. This tag is the equivalent of that.

Only Avoidable Death of Heroine - Heroine deaths are entirely avoidable, both on their own routes and outside of it. Mostly this means that heroine death only happens in a game over scenario after you fuck up.

We probably should codify this. But thanks to the lax description so far, this might cause a serious case of mistagging in retrospect. Ugh, what a pain...

____________________

@2234 Rampaa

This, EXACTLY this is why I have always been staunchly against having a lolicon trait or character related tags. It's a mess. No matter how we do it, it will ALWAYS be a mess. My take? Get rid of Lolicon Protagonist, Lolicon Heroine and Lolicon Hero. Deny Lolicon.. The tags aren't all that used anyway, seems to me that people don't care or want them. We have 1384 applications of Lolicon. Lolicon Protagonist in comparison has been used 26 times over 1.5 years, Lolicon Heroine has 6 uses, while Lolicon Hero has seen absolutely no use, both over 10 months. Considering how underused they are, I don't see a point in dealing with all the headaches they come with. That's my two cents on that, though I guess that won't make me any more popular.

____________________

This should be all. Now to do something similar in the traits thread... fuck this is tedious...Last modified on 2020-04-03 at 18:53
#2250 by rampaa
2020-04-03 at 20:13
I think one aspect that pretty much all of you have missed is that Imouto-type Heroine is NOT an actual sister of the protagonist.
We didn't miss that aspect but there was a disagreement about it. @Skorpiondeath argued that the tag should actually include protagonist's sisters and I disagreed. Anyway, I do agree the tag is pretty much useless as is. I think the trait I've proposed (Imouto Act) is doing an okay job and is not being misused. So please spare the trait! I would personally welcome a tag version of it.

My take? Get rid of E̶V̶E̶R̶Y̶T̶H̶I̶N̶G̶.
Well, cutting the Gordian knot is a solution, I guess.

though I guess that won't make me any more popular.
Well, this is (mostly!) not a popularity contest, so it should be fine! Just like cats. A cat is fine too...
(I am aware this is a rather unfunny joke but I can't bring myself to delete it. I need some Tsukihime memes in my life. ._.)

EDIT:
It's also possible that I missed it, if you think that to be the case, please make a post pointing out the issue.
t3617.2237Last modified on 2020-04-03 at 20:19