Tags suggestions/fixes

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#2276 by usagi
2020-04-29 at 23:39
Seems like a good idea overall, approved.
Good. Still, my question stands - should it be child tag of Unlockable Sexual Content as well? IMO it should since the whole idea of detached sex scenes implying NOTnukige genre - and thus there is zero sense in allowing sex scenes be unlocked BY DEFAULT from the beginning. I know that in Maitetsu you can unlock them immediately by activating special button - but it still unlocking nevertheless. The only reason I hesitated to make it child tag as well is that I don't know very many titles with such approach yet.. but now, after some consideration I can see that I should did just that. Else we will have such games with cluttered tags cloud with similar tags such as Detached Sexual Content, Unlockable Sexual Content and Only Avoidable Sexual Content (as with Maitetsu now) - while in theory child tags should reduce number of tags (Detached Sexual Content should imply both of the other two and render them unneeded )- not increase them. I hope the situation will fix themselves with time on its own (by downvoting parent tags which very few people is doing unfortunately) but for this certain steps should be made now (including adding words about unlocking in description). Of course I can be wrong here if there is a game with extra menu h-scenes unlocked from the start even before reader can famirialize himself with characters yet - but I really, really, really doubt about it.
I think you are pointlessly nitpicking here. There are entire porn genres that have little to no actual intercourse. Usually the kinky variety. Like, jerk-off instructions (JOI) type videos. Most of them have a single woman sitting on a bed, doing a domina routine giving your instructions. Then the niche fetish channels: there are porn companies specialized on making videos about whipping, tickling and so on. Some of these work without even fully undressing their models. No penetration or anything is sight, yet you see these videos on PornHub and not YouTube. Because, well, it's CLEARLY sexual content. Or the games produced by 4H: they literally have some titles that have no sex scenes, and the entire game is basically like this: link As in teenage girls forced into public nudity and the entire thing focuses on erotic humiliation and exhibitionism. How is that not sexual content? Well, it is. Just because no actual intercourse happens, the content can be easily sexual. That's how we always used the term.
I know what are you talking about. And no, it's not what I meant at all. It seems you are not very familiar with 3DCG genre to understand me immediately. What I meant is more similar to constant kinky paper dolls such as this link for example - which doesn't make that exact moment a h-scene BUT (coupled with corresponding porno-plot as well) makes the game a nukige without doubt. The thing is that in many modern 3DCG titles standart mechanic of backgrounds and paper dolls does not exist. Instead, they use CGs to tell the story. Which in turn transforms even casual dialogs to very impactful ecchi scenes. However you can't say it some specific fetishistic scene as well since within the story it's not even considered as something abnormal by its participants.
And from that perspective, I cannot even imagine a porn game with low sexual content. It's just not feasible. But even if you manage find one single example (which I doubt), that's still one example
Easy. Halfway House - just a few h-scenes but huge amount of casual slice of life scenes and dialogs happening when live with couple of hot girls under the same roof such as this link
Dual Family - link the same
Double Homework - link the same
Shattered - it's clearly a fetishistic nukige but amount of h-scenes can't be classified as high - it's moderate at best
Where the Heart Is - it's corruption nukige with huge amount of fan service CGs - but given the game's length the actual number of h-scenes is not different from long modern moege
and many more - most of them are not even registered in vndb though
But even if you manage find one single example (which I doubt), that's still one example where separating the two tags makes sense versus literally thousands where all it achieves is cluttering the tag cloud with redundant tags even further. And as such, I see pretty much no reason for decoupling these tags and plenty against.
But it does not work like that with current system at all! If you are so concerned about redandancy. On the contrary many games gets BOTH tags anyway now or eventually in future. Like Babysitter which in fact is corruption incest nukige - but someone considered it as a romance with high sexual conent. In the end there will be both tags as more people with different opinions will play it. Or like Starless being 100% pure nukige with so many h-scenes that it inevitably earns high sexual content tag as well. From reducing tag cloud cluttering perspective current system just does not work at all. And principally different nature of those both tags is not helping here too.Last modified on 2020-04-29 at 23:54
#2277 by fuukanou
2020-04-29 at 23:44
The description of Detached Sexual Content probably should have himself -> themself & he -> they (and corresponding conjugations) for gender neutrality but tbh probably not a big problemLast modified on 2020-04-29 at 23:45
#2278 by wildberry
2020-05-04 at 04:07
Wanted to ask... the closest tag we have to a "forced to watch" sexual situation (a character that may or may not be the protagonist being forced to watch a love interest get raped) is Netorare Type C?

Could this tag still apply to an otome game, despite the gender description clearly having male protagonist games in mind? Speaking of, a handful of the NTR tags aren't gender neutral so I wanted to be sure.
#2279 by anonymous
2020-05-06 at 08:10
So after yet another reminder why I stopped buying English releases of any Japanese media and started to learn the language, I think it's time to do what I've seen suggested in various parts of the internet, and add tags which reflect what is being done:

"Ideological(Removal of) Content in Official Release" and "Ideological(Removal of) Content in Unofficial Release"

"Ideological" because I want this tag to be future-proof. While describing current attacks on Japanese media could be done more precisely with the word "Pseudoliberal", I still remember what would've been my first convention being cancelled because of an angry phone call from a religious figure. Another consideration is potential influence of other countries with strong ideologically-backed hatred of Japan. Most people will(correctly) think about China, but I also need to point out a custom key cap group buy a few years ago on Massdrop where a mob of angry Koreans caused the Japanese flag to be removed. Japanese media has been, is, and will be attacked. It's always easier to make people work for someone else's goal when there's an apparent "enemy" that "must" be conquered. The freedom and variety of Japanese media, which is necessary for all our beloved works to be as good as they are(or even exist for some of them) unfortunately also means that you'll always find something someone dislikes, making it an easy target. Creators and fans, both Japanese and foreign, need to work towards building an ecosystem of no influence from bad actors, but that's a topic for another thread, let's get back to VNDB tags.

"(Removal of)" is intentionally not a separate tag because it's essentially the same. I originally had "Language" as the next word, then I realized that changes or removals of graphics and such have already happened, so I added a separate tag for "Content". But I decided to merge them because again, it's essentially the same.

"Official/Unofficial Release" was originally "Western Release" but censorship can happen anywhere in the world. Also, many scanlators nowadays translate primarily for the money. This is especially evident every time a scanlator decides to censor something to stay on their current platform. If you were a fan, you'd take pride in effort ensuring that the work is relayed as-is instead of "not wanting to rock the boat". Another issue is that money will make some people defend their work being mutilated. You may have seen Sapkowski's defence of the Netflix Witcher, which is in direct opposition of what I've seen and heard myself from him on a convention a few years ago. We're seeing Novectacle's response now. And unfortunately we'll probably see more of this in the future. Moreover, because of what we've seen with original releases of PS4 games(and unfortunately will probably also happen on PC if it hasn't already), we can't put the divide in "Licenced/Unlicenced Release" either. However in case of multiple official or unofficial releases, it's extremely important to show which ones are affected, so this tag should probably also require an appropriate note in the description.
#2280 by warfoki
2020-05-06 at 10:45
Ugh... no. For a whole plethora of reasons, just no. Just to list a few:

1. "Ideological" is vague and underdefined as fuck. Looking through the right lenses, pretty much anything can be labeled as such.

2. We are not adding release specific tags. Haven't ever done so, won't start now.

3. In a LOT of cases whether something is a case of censorship or liberal translation is up for debate.

4. We do not tag author / publisher intention. Ever. That's so up for subjective judgement and wild guesses that it's not even funny.
#2281 by butterflygrrl
2020-05-06 at 12:15
I think wading into the "ideological" quagmire would be a huge mess because that's extremely subjective, but there is something to be said about release-specific notes. Yes, they're probably better done AS notes, but it is awkward figuring out whether or not to tag something if that element was entirely removed (or added) to/from certain releases.

For example, if a game has exactly two releases and one contains bestiality and the other doesn't, tagging it feels a little awkward, doesn't it? It's half wrong either way.
#2282 by anonymous
2020-05-06 at 14:19
1. "Ideological" is vague and underdefined as fuck. Looking through the right lenses, pretty much anything can be labeled as such.
Well then, I have two solutions:
A)Make separate pair of tags for every type of envirnoment/group of people that pushes for such behavior. So "Feminism-driven(Removal of) Content in Official/Unofficial Release", "Religion-driven(Removal of) Content in Official/Unofficial Release", "Nationalism-driven(Removal of) Content in Official/Unofficial Release" et cetera.
B)Come up with a better wording. A friend suggested "Culturally Colonialist", but I'm open for other ideas.

2. We are not adding release specific tags. Haven't ever done so, won't start now.
Yes, you don't do that, despite many situations that call for it. For example, there are many games with both R-18 and All Ages releases(especially PC/console multiplatform ones), tagging both either with or without as having sexual content doesn't reflect them acurately. And the whole point of a tagging site is to do exactly that.

3. In a LOT of cases whether something is a case of censorship or liberal translation is up for debate.
Actually, almost every time you can tell by who translated it. By now every translator accused of this has a history of multiple cases. Once is chance, twice is coincidence, third time is a pattern.
(I wanted to post here the "thank God I can fix it" image about some translator, working for Nintendo America Treehouse if I recall correctly, but I seem to have lost it. Does anyone have it?)

4. We do not tag author / publisher intention. Ever. That's so up for subjective judgement and wild guesses that it's not even funny.
I did not at any point ask to do so. I pointed out that there are known cases of people defending mutilation of their work and going back on their previous words in multiple media. Then I pointed out the PS4 censorship, as seen here(link) causing the original release to clearly not be as developer intended.

I would also appreciate if you(or someone else) told me why I had to reset my password before posting this. I use a password manager, so I didn't forget it.
#2283 by beliar
2020-05-06 at 14:54
We absolutely won't be adding such tags. Warfoki already explained why it's an absolutely horrible idea, and his 3rd and 4th points are especially important. Majority of time it's impossible to tell what was changed in order to flow better or because of some sort of bias. Hint: most of the time it's not a bias, but a publisher's desire to sell more copies to a wider audience that results in changes to the script.
Also, shit is always subjective and what some Youtube-based card-carying nazi thinks is a SJW plot, might actually be just a simple change to make the text read better.

Moreover, this whole "suggestion" of yours just feels like a poor attempt at flaming, rather than a serious suggestion. Especially with using boisterous words like "ideological". Seems like you jumped here straight from Youtube or from the reddit thread about Fata Morgana and wanted to add your too cents to the fire.
#2284 by warfoki
2020-05-06 at 15:35
Also, aside of everything else mentioned above, VNDB is apolitical. Political topics are very, VERY rarely tolerated for discussion here (unless they are directly related to VNs, but even those threads tend to get nasty real fast and thus end up being locked). This is relevant, because your whole suggestion reeks of a heavy anti-SJW sentiment and we, as a site, are NOT going to make such a statement, implied or direct.

On a personal level I absolutely loathe SJWs and their tendency of labeling things for easy dismissal and their love for heavy-handed thought policing and censorship. But that's one thing, site policy and rules are another. I don't necessary like all the rules, but I accept them and will help upholding them, because they work and kept VNDB out of the whole sociopolitical quagmire for about a decade now. And I prefer to keep it that way.

Now, onto the actual suggestion:

A)Make separate pair of tags for every type of envirnoment/group of people that pushes for such behavior. So "Feminism-driven(Removal of) Content in Official/Unofficial Release", "Religion-driven(Removal of) Content in Official/Unofficial Release", "Nationalism-driven(Removal of) Content in Official/Unofficial Release" et cetera.
B)Come up with a better wording. A friend suggested "Culturally Colonialist", but I'm open for other ideas.

Right, so instead of one ill-defined buzzword-laden tag, let's add a whole slew of them. No. Hell no. Absolutely not.

Yes, you don't do that, despite many situations that call for it. For example, there are many games with both R-18 and All Ages releases(especially PC/console multiplatform ones), tagging both either with or without as having sexual content doesn't reflect them acurately.

And now you are being intentionally pedantic. If a VN has an all ages and a 18+ edition, sexual traits fucking OBVIOUSLY apply to the 18+ version, since if the all ages version had sexual content, it wouldn't be all ages. Duh. And I don't particularly care about catering for anybody who is too... dense, to realize something this bloody obvious on their own.

Actually, almost every time you can tell by who translated it. By now every translator accused of this has a history of multiple cases.

In a lot of cases the translators are unknown. Sure, some high profile ones are known, as they jumped ship from the fan-tl scene, but we have a lot of cases where we simply don't know the translator. And even if we do, what are you going to with first-time translators? Are you seriously thinking that people will go on a wild goose chase across the net to figure out if they had previous cases of "problematic translations"? Hint: nobody will do that. What will happen happen, is that people will come in for the sole purpose of mass flagging VNs translated by anyone they don't like. You have one suspicious buzzword in a 30 hour VN? Mass flag that shit, that'll show those SJWs what for! And then said SJWs will come in and flag everything they deem problematic and we have the entire shitstorm on our hands, achieving nothing of value whatsoever.

I did not at any point ask to do so.

Except you absolutely did. "Ideologically driven" is a statement of intention. You can assume what the author want, but in most cases that's all you can do. And we are not basing supposedly objective tags on wild assumption that came around after a small issue got overblown to hell and back by drama-queen youtubers and reddit fans.

So, no, none of these tags will ever, in any shape or form, see the light of day on this site as long as I have any say in it. And that's final. Period.Last modified on 2020-05-06 at 15:41
#2285 by usagi
2020-05-06 at 18:07
My Daz3D Engine and Honey Select Engine tags were denied with
Just use the engine field on the release page
Could you explain me what it has to do with engine field of releases? Both Daz3D and HoneySelect/StudioNeo rendering software are used to create character models and backgrounds. However results of that work is used by RenPy engine. In fact almost all games with Daz3D or HoneySelect models are RenPy engine games. Denying them as engine tags is like deny Photoshop or Paint if it used to create vns in any engine. Whether it's useful to have such tags or not - is another question but no one can argue that DazD/HoneySelect models have very particular look to them. Maybe the name of the tag should be changed to Daz3D Software or Daz3D Models instead of Engine though - to avoid such confusion. Instead of just denying it.Last modified on 2020-05-06 at 18:10
#2286 by warfoki
2020-05-06 at 18:10
Well, they were named engines, so I figured they were VN game engines, my bad I guess. They are still denied though, but in this case, see the reasoning at Live2d.
#2287 by usagi
2020-05-06 at 19:09
I'm fearful ignorant users will add it to every game with animation. Not everyone can tell how Live2d looks, after all.
Is it really a reason? 0_0 Well, even if you can mix Live2d with anything else in theory (it's impossible IMO - but let's assume it's not) - you can't say the same about HoneySelect models and Daz3D ones. They are as different as photographic and hand-drawn sprites - you can't mix them. ...Bah, whatever. Just say you don't want to bother with it - no big deal.
Also, I strongly believe that Exhibitionism should be divided to male and female category - since they are very, very different fetishes. That, or Clothed Male Naked Female, Clothed Female Naked Male and Clothed Male Naked Male should be made Exhibitionism subtags - as alternative solution. I am not 100% sure about that though - since exhibitionism is more related to exposure before strangers IMO - and CxNx tags are not exactly about strangers.. but in practice such tags are not used for known intimate partners vanilla sex too. That and Clothed Male Naked Female is especially useless since 99% of typical Japanese men are never getting naked during sex.
So, one suggestion is to make Male Exhibitionism and Female Exhibitionism tags and other - make CxNx tags more about strangers (add line to not use such tags for h-scenes between partners in relationship, for example - and move them under Exhibitionism).Last modified on 2020-05-06 at 19:09
#2288 by anonymous
2020-05-07 at 10:07
First off I'm going to point out that I needed yet another pasword reset to log in.

You insist on not providing information on which releases have been modified to the point of limiting other release-specific information just to justify it(as weak of a justification as consistency with other lack of information is). You claim that my requests are aimed at one specific group, while I made it abundantly clear multiple times that they are meant to be used to describe any and all attacks on Japanese art. And finally, you promote not responding in any way other than a bit of internet rambling to those attacks and make presenting alternative actions difficult by aforementioned password resets.

I'm leaving this website, and anyone who doesn't automatically proclaims to the public that they are in support of limiting and destroying Japanese media and promoting inaction. "Turning the other cheek" only works in books. But it's even worse than nothing, because in real life it makes you mere filler that makes the amount of percieved acceptance to these attacks bigger. My posts will be up until Monday to give people time to make screenshots and pass them around as a warning against joining, and then I'll delete this account.Last modified on 2020-05-07 at 10:09
#2289 by yorhel
2020-05-07 at 12:12
First off I'm going to point out that I needed yet another pasword reset to log in.
Which password manager are you using? I suspect autofill is broken on the login form, I can look into that.

As for the rest: Suggesting release info as a tag is a sure-fire way to get it rejected, as already mentioned. It should have been suggested as a new release field instead. And here's an alternative wording that has a much higher chance of getting accepted: "Removal of content". Or "Removal of sexual content", "Removal of violent content", "Removal of religious content" if you want to be specific. The intention behind the removal isn't the tiniest bit relevant, even if we could somehow figure that out.
#2290 by warfoki
2020-05-07 at 12:46
Don't let the door hit you on the back. We are not interested in staving off "attacks on the Japanese media", the hell-ever that even means. Also, you egoism in thinking that the Japanese media needs our gaijin protection is in and of itself hilarious. We are cataloging VNs and helping people find them. That's it, nothing more, nothing less. As for your "warning" for others: go ahead. We won't miss anyone who would only come here to aggressively push an agenda, I can promise you that much.Last modified on 2020-05-07 at 12:47
#2291 by shining17
2020-05-22 at 06:48
Death Note

Make this tag non applicable please. Maybe one of the mods should even delete it, since the relation system already took care of that.Last modified on 2020-05-22 at 11:19
#2292 by funnerific
2020-05-23 at 18:39
Why is Different Love Interest(s) Per Protagonist a child of Protagonist Selection? The description of the tag doesn't suggest being forced to choose a protagonist since there are games like ef and Aster where you read each protagonist's story in turn and everyone has their own heroines.
#2293 by drjones
2020-06-04 at 10:29
- Skin Option.
Shouldn't this one be a technical tag?Last modified on 2020-06-04 at 10:30
#2294 by usagi
2020-06-04 at 14:48
School Life Comedy should be child tag of School too.
Why is Different Love Interest(s) Per Protagonist a child of Protagonist Selection?
Why, I wonder, indeed? 0_0 There are vns such as Stekliannaya Shesterionka where you have Protagonist Gender Choice And depending on the chosen gender - different love interests becomes available. Still, it' not Multiple Protagonists case.
#2295 by beliar
2020-06-04 at 16:08
Death Note
Make this tag non applicable please.
What's the reasoning? Is it only because there are only two games attributed to it? I don't know, seems comparatively harmless.

Why is Different Love Interest(s) Per Protagonist a child of Protagonist Selection?
Good question... Though I wonder where I should put it. Maybe under "Multiple Protagonists"?

Skin Option.
Shouldn't this one be a technical tag?
It probably should.

School Life Comedy should be child tag of School too.
Done.
#2296 by naiohoras
2020-06-05 at 06:54
I'd like to revamp Protagonist's Sister-in-Law as a Heroine's description a little. currently, sister-in-law defined as "a woman who is married to his brother." it's too narrow in my opinion since it doesn't include wife's sister. therefore, wife's sister currently doesn't have any affiliated tag in the DB theoretically, but already tagged as Protagonist's Sister-in-Law as a Heroine practically.

making Wikipedia as reference, I'd like to change the description into something like this:

One or more of the heroines is the protagonist's sister-in-law.

Sister-in-law refers to the sister of protagonist's wife, or the wife of protagonist's brother, or less frequently the sister of protagonist's wife's sibling (co-sister-in-law).

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