Tag Overhaul #3

Posted in

#1 by warfoki
2013-06-08 at 17:54
This is Part 3 of the Tag Overhaul topic. Here are the other parts:

Part 1: t4187
Part 2: t4188

For more information, check t4187.
Please refrain from going off-topic and flamewars in these threads.

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161
g1478
Bonus Episodes

Description:
Remove: "These sometimes appear as choices that signify a detour and sometimes are unlocked by certain conditions being fulfilled during the playthrough to access later from the main menu."
Replace it with: "These appear as choices that signify a detour and sometimes are unlocked by certain conditions being fulfilled (making certain decision earlier in the game or playing through it for in a New Game+ mode, etc.)."

---

162
g661
Archery Club

Description:
School archery club and the activities related to it takes an important role in this story.

---

163
g686
Baseball Club

Description:
School baseball club and the activities related to it takes an important role in this story.

---

164
g583
Swimming Club

Description:
School swimming club and the activities related to it takes an important role in this story.

---

165
g566
School Sports Club Member Heroine

Child tag of:
g1212 (Student Club Member Heroine)
Remove: g1491 (Athlete Heroine)

---

166
g590
Newspaper Club

Description:
Newspaper club and the activities related to it takes an important role in this story.

---

167
g1327
Elementary School Student Heroine

Child tag of:
Remove: g1326 (Elementary School)
(Reason: Just because a heroine is an elementary school student, the setting is not necessarily an elementary school.)

---

168
g1184
High School Student Protagonist

Child tag of:
Remove: g48 (High School)
(Reason: Just because the protagonist is a high student, the setting is not necessarily a high school.)

---

169
g671
Haunted House

Child tag of:
g308 (House)
Remove: g309 (Western-style Mansion)

---

170
g318
Church

Description:
Game has many scenes set in a church.

---

171
g319
Shinto Shrine

Description:
The game has many scenes set in a Shinto shrine.

---

172
g317
Temple

Description:
Game has many scenes set in a temple.

For Christian temples, please use the Church tag.

---

173
g306
Palace

Description:
The game has many scenes set in a royal palace.

---

174
g315
Amusement Park

Description:
Game has many scenes set in an amusement park or a theme park.

---

175
g517
Cafe

Alias:
Café

---

176
g519
Forest

Description:
A significant part of the game is set in a forest.

Alias:
Woods
Woodland

---

177
g270
Hospital

Description:
The game has a lot of scenes set in a hospital.

---

178
g424
Island

Description:
A significant part of the game is set on a small(ish) island.

Alias:
Isle

---

179
g1006
Ship

Description:
Game has many scenes set inside a sea-ship.

---

180
g484
Submarine

Description:
Game has many scenes set inside a submarine.

---

181
g611
Cupid Heroine

Child tag of:
Remove: g898 (Christian Mythology)

---

182
g166
Set in the Sengoku Jidai

Name:
Sengoku Period

Description:
These games are set in (or at least based upon) the Warring States Period of Japan.

Alias:
Set in the Sengoku Jidai
Warring States Period of Japan

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183
g60
Modern Day Earth

Description:
The visual novel is set on modern day Earth.
Note: "Modern day" refers to an unspecified time period between the late 20th century and today.

Alias:
Contemporary Earth

---

184
g62
Future Earth

Description:
This story is set on a fictional rendition of future Earth.

---

185
g222
Fictional Modern Day Japanese Town

Description:
This visual novel is set in a fictional town within contemporary Japan.

Alias:
Fictional Modern Day Japanese City
Fictional Contemporary Japanese City
Fictional Contemporary Japanese Town

---

186
g550
Fictional Modern Day Japanese Countryside

Description:
This story is set in a fictional coutryside area of contemporary Japan.

Alias:
Fictional Modern Day Japanese Rural Area
Fictional Contemporary Japanese Countryside
Fictional Contemporary Japanese Rural Area
Remove: Fictional Modern Day Japanese rural town

Child tag of:
g221 (Modern Day Japan)
Remove: g222 (Fictional Modern Day Japanese Town)

---

187
g1299
Fictional Modern Day Japanese Island

Description:
This story is set on a fictional island near the shores of contemporary Japan.

Alias:
Fictional Modern Day Japanese Isle
Fictional Contemporary Japanese Island
Fictional Contemporary Japanese Isle

---

188
g301
Middle Ages Europe

Description:
This game has scenes that are set in the Middle Ages Europe.

Alias:
Medieval Europe

---

189
g758
Seasons

Description:
This meta-tag is to gather the four season tags for games that take place in a specific one (or more), capture that season's mood, etc.

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190
g1642
Choices with 4 or More Options

Description:
Game contains choices that offer 4 or more options to select from (as opposed to more commonplace 2- or 3-option choices). There is no upper limit for this tag.

This tag does not apply to Map Movement or battle action selections for games with RPG elements; it only applies to actual choices which influence route selection.

Alias:
Choices with Lots of Options
Choices with a Lot of Options
Choices with Many Options

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191
g1643
Multi-Selection Choices

Description:
Remove: Do not use this tag for Map Movement, or member selection in games with RPG elements.
Replace it with: Do not use this tag for Map Movement, or member selection in games with RPG elements.

---

192
g372
Mahjong as gameplay element

Name:
Mahjong as Gameplay Element

Description:
Mahjong is a game for four players that originated in China. In the game, each player is dealt either thirteen or sixteen tiles in a hand (depending on the variation being played). On their turn, players draw a tile and discard one, with the goal of making four or five melds (also depending on the variation) and one pair, or "head". Winning comes "on the draw", by drawing a new or discarded tile that completes the hand. Thus a winning hand actually contains fourteen (or seventeen) tiles.

Only use this if there is an actual mahjong minigame in the VN. If it is only used as a plot-element, please use Mahjong as Story Element.

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193
g1290
Mahjong as story element

Name:
Mahjong as Story Element

Description:
Add: "If Mahjong is present in the visual novel as a playable game, use Mahjong as Gameplay Element instead."

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194
g1316
Armpit Sex

Description:
These games contain at least one scene of armpit sex. This is a form of non-penetrative sex where the penis is inserted in a person's armpit.

---

195
g516
Sex Involving Drugs

Description:
Remove: "This tag is about intoxication, don't use it for games that has rape by drugging."
(Reason: with the child tag, this note is obsolete)

---

196
g1581
Cowgirl

Description:
Cowgirl is the name of a group of sex positions in which the man lies on his back or sits, the woman straddles him and they face each other, and the vagina or anus of the receiving partner is aligned with the phallus of the inserting partner to achieve penetration.

NSFW example

Note: If the participants face away from its each other, then use the Reverse Cowgirl tag instead.

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197
g1582
Reverse Cowgirl

Description:
Reverse cowgirl is a variation of the Cowgirl position in which the woman faces away from the man. She can either be in a kneeling or squatting position and can have her torso upright, or she can have it aligned with the inserting man's body.

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198
g1297
Doggy

Description:
Doggy style or doggie style is sexual intercourse usually involving a receiving partner crouching on all fours while a penetrative partner sexually penetrates the vagina or the anus from behind or performs other sex acts.

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199
g718
Female Domination

The visual novel features at least one sex-scene involving female domination.


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200
g897
Scat

Scat is a fetish involving the act of defecation or the feces itself in a sexual context.

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201
g1710
Swinging

Description:
Add: "Note: Do not confuse swinging with Adultery."

Child tag of:
g381 (Sexual Content by Participants)

---

202
g92
Blood-related Brother/Sister Incest

Child tag of:
g88 (Blood-related Incest)

---

203
g391
Blood-related Father/Daughter Incest

Child tag of:
g88 (Blood-related Incest)

---

204
g947
Blood-related Mother/Daughter Incest

Child tag of:
g88 (Blood-related Incest)

---

205
g532
Blood-related Mother/Son Incest

Child tag of:
g88 (Blood-related Incest)

---

206
g91
Blood-related Sister/Sister Incest

Child tag of:
g88 (Blood-related Incest)

---

207
g1341
Blood-related Aunt/Nephew Incest

Child tag of:
g88 (Blood-related Incest)

---

208
g1698
Blood-related Brother/Brother Incest

Child tag of:
g88 (Blood-related Incest)

---

209
g1697
Blood-related Father/Son Incest

Child tag of:
g88 (Blood-related Incest)

---

210
g1421
Blood-related Grandmother/Grandson Incest

Child tag of:
g88 (Blood-related Incest)

---

211
g1522
Blood-related Uncle/Niece Incest

Child tag of:
g88 (Blood-related Incest)

---

212
g95
Non-blood-related Brother/Sister Incest

Child tag of:
g93 (Non-blood-related Incest)

---

213
g1318
Non-blood-related Father/Daughter Incest

Child tag of:
g93 (Non-blood-related Incest)

---

214
g1693
Non-blood-related Mother/Daughter Incest

Child tag of:
g93 (Non-blood-related Incest)

---

215
g652
Non-blood-related Mother/Son Incest

Child tag of:
g93 (Non-blood-related Incest)

---

216
g94
Non-blood-related Sister/Sister Incest

Child tag of:
g93 (Non-blood-related Incest)

---

217
g1084
Multiple Penetration

Child tag of:
g835 (Sexual Content by Activity)
Remove: g358 (Group Sex of One Female and Several Males)

---

218
g1627
Yuri NTR

Child tag of:
g82 (Yuri)

---

219
g1640
Monster Rape

Description:
This game contains one or more scenes of rape involving monsters.

Examples may include werewolves, dragons (not in human form), chimeras and other fantastic beasts.

Demonic animals that don't look significantly different from their normal counterparts, generally should be covered by Bestiality.

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220
g738
Yaoi Rape

Description:
This tag is used on stories where one or more male characters sexually assault another male.

---

221
g183
Bestiality

Description:
This game involves sex with animals.

For details please check the relevant Wikipedia article: link

Note: Please only use this tag in case of real animals, for fantastic creatures use Sex with Monsters and its child tags.

Alias:
Zoophilia

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222
g1578
Geriatric Sex

Name:
Elderly Sex

Alias:
Geriatric Sex
Remove: Elderly Sex
(Reason: The most commonplace alternative should be the main name, everything else can go under alias.)
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223
g1667
Monogamous sex

Name:
Unavoidable Sexual Encounters with Multiple partners

Description:
The protagonist in this story engages in sexual activities with several partners without getting into a relationship with them.

It is also possible for the protagonist to be in a relationship while having these sexual encounters with other characters, yet they do not change his main relationship in any meaningful way.

(Reason: Monogamous Sex is currently useless, as its original goal was to filter out VNs where the protagonist would have sexual encounters with different characters in one playthrough beside their chosen heroine. However, this is such a broad description that it could be applied to at least 90% romance-eroges in the databse, making it nigh useless.

As such, we propose a backwards-approach: Instead of pointing out the myriad of games where the protagonist only has sex with one partner during a playthrough, this new tag would filter out the opposite: VNs where the protagonist has multiple sexual partners during a single walkthrough no matter what.
Another tag for optional encounters can be added later on demand.)

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224
g396
Pregnant Sex

Description:
This visual novel involves sex with pregnant women.

---

225
g582
Only Avoidable Sexual Content

Child tag of:
g378 (Implementation of Sexual Content)
Remove: g236 (Low Sexual Content)

---

226
g407
Sex Under the Necessity

Child tag of:
g378 (Implementation of Sexual Content)
Remove: g208 (Random Sex Scenes)

---

227
g906
Internal Exhibition of Sex

Description:
During sex-scenes there are internal view of penis (or the penetrating object in case of sex-toys) in the partner's intestines, vagina, womb, throat, etc.

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228
g1122
Sexual Scenes with Gameplay

Child tag of:
g21 (Other Gameplay Elements)

---

229
g1561
Grotesque Body Modification

Description:
This game contains erotic grotesque scenes featuring extreme body modification, bizarre mutations and/or extremely disfigured characters. Only use for non-gory scenes, for bloody amputations and such use Guro instead.

Alias:
Extreme Body Modification

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230
g261
Rape by Female

Name:
Reverse Rape

Alias:
Rape of Male by Female
Remove: Reverse Rape
(Reason: Just going by the name, Rape by Female could include Yuri Rape, Reverse Rape is less misunderstanable.)

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231
g1402
Pornography

Child tag of:
g835 (Sexual Content by Activity)
Remove: g23 (Sexual Content)

---

232
g1274
Sexual Innuendo

Child tag of:
g378 (Implementation of Sexual Content)

---

233
g689
Urolagnia

Name:
Urination Fetish

Descriptip:
This game features one of more sexual scenes involving urination.
(Reason: The current tag is highly misused, so instead of going through every single one to check it, I rather retrofit the tag. Specific Urolagnia (aka people pissiong on each other) can be added later.)

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234
g219
Sexual Slavery:

Description:
Sexual slavery is either a type of brainwashing process, where character(s) are conditioned to enjoy performing sexual acts by their own will in service of their 'masters'; or actual slaves performing sexual acts either under obligation or threats.
(Reason: the current tag is overlapping with mindbreak too much, does not adress the legal system of sexual slavery in nukiges or voluntary sexual slavery.)

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235
g156
Lolicon

Description:
This game features sexual scenes with loli characters and related lolicon themes.

In Japan, lolicon describes an attraction to underage girls (whether prepubescent, pubescent, or post-pubescent).

Note: Do NOT use this tag for lolicon characters, use the relevant character tags for that purpose.Last modified on 2013-07-09 at 01:18
#2 by nekoyasha
2013-06-09 at 09:24
(Sorry if this has already been discussed/decided in some other thread.)

I really have to protest the phrase "reverse rape" (with the definition of a woman raping a man) as one of the most asinine I've ever seen. The "opposite" of rape is not a woman raping a man; rape is one person sexually assaulting another.

There are already tags for g738 and g623 - why not just complete the square with 'Rape of Male by Female' and 'Rape of Female by Male'? I agree the existing 'Rape by Female' tag is ambiguous, but there has to be a better solution than that nonsense phrase...

Of course, 'Rape of Female by Male' might be difficult because it would have to be retroactively thrown into a million games that currently just use the 'Rape' tag, and it may be about as useful as the 'Male Protagonist' tag... We could probably just continue to let 'Rape' mean 'Rape of Female by Male' and just change 'Rape by Female' to 'Rape of Male by Female,' resulting in no annoying manual changes.

(Congratulations, I think this is the most times I've ever written the word 'rape' in one place...)Last modified on 2013-06-09 at 09:25
#3 by pendelhaven
2013-06-09 at 09:28
asinine or not, its the generally accepted definition. It was invented as such even before the dictionary could.
#4 by gabezhul
2013-06-09 at 10:22
^Exactly. Even if it is not the "politically correct" name of the act, it is the generally accepted one, so people are going to search for and/or exclude it far more naturally than the overly specific tags you just suggested.
#5 by warfoki
2013-06-09 at 13:27
^This.
#6 by barfboy
2013-06-09 at 16:19
Hey I didn't know we had a pornography tag.

Question about it's use. Obviously a game that involves a pornographic photo shoot is included, what about games where the protagonist secretly films girls in sexual situations to blackmail them like Shusaku v1130 or how about someone making an eroge like Shiiko Love v7432 but it's the protagonist just drawing cg art?

Also how about a game where pornography plays a significant roll like Angel Ring v3860 but nobody is actually in the act of making it, they're all just consuming it?
#7 by abyssaleros
2013-06-09 at 16:25
The pornography tag hails from me barfboy and actually I have hold the description broad as I personally see no need for splitting it down to every imaginable variant.
So I would tag all your examples with it.
But as warfoki is overhauling the tags maybe if the community is seeing more need then me, why not...
#8 by barfboy
2013-06-09 at 16:43
Oh. I made a request for a change to the bloomers trait because the description disallowed actual bloomers to be added to the database.

I notice now that the bloomers tag g1079 is also broken. I'm not sure which type of bloomers, western or japanese, the tag is referring to.

Guess we should add it to the list for overhaul
#9 by warfoki
2013-06-09 at 18:09
@Abyssaleros
Now that I think about it, maybe it is a bit too vague as is. Currently it covers the following if I get it right:

- making amateur photos/videos for fun or for blackmail material
- making professional porn movies is a part of the plot and explicitly shown
- watching porn (this isn't included based on the description as of now)
- drawing any form of hentai

These are vastly different things, serving vastly different needs, both fetish- and plotwise. So my guess is to make sufficient child tags, since if this tag catches on as is, it'll be nigh useless in the long run.

Proposed child tags:

Name: Production of Pornography (Amateur)
Description: This visual novel features the makings of non-professional pornographic material. Reasons and circumstances may vary. The act of the recording can be legal (a couple recording their fun time) or illegal (recording of a rape to use it as blackmail material).

Note: Do NOT use this tag for professional pornography, where actor(s) and/or actress(es) are hired through legal ways for the purpose of making pornographic videos and/or pictures. For that, use the Professional Pornography tag.

Alias: Home Sex Video
Amateur Sex Tape
Underground Pornography

------
------

Name: Production of Pornography (Professional)
Description: This visual novel features the makings of professionally produced pornography.

Note: Do NOT use this tag for amateur pornographic content, use Amateur Sex Videos and Photography insted.

------
------

Name: Consumption of Pornography
Description: This visual novel features at least one scene where a character or characters consume(s) any form of pornography. Be it a porn movie, a hentai manga or an amateur sex tape, it doesn't matter, the only important thing is that someone is shown reading/watching it.

------
------

Name: Production of Pornography (Drawn)
Description: This visual novel features the makings of drawn pornographic content, be it animated or not. This includes, but not limited to hentai.

Note: Most visual novels use drawn artwork for visual presentation. Thus only use this tag if it's clearly stated that the featured pornographic content is drawn in-universe. Do not use this tag, if the produced pornographic content is live action movie or photographs, and only appears to be drawn because of the visual presentation of the visual novel.

Note: This tag can be used both for professional (e.g. an eroge company) and amateur (e.g. a doujin circle) production.

------
------

Aside of these child tags, the current pornography tag would remain as a placeholder for cases when the tagger cannot decide which childtag should be used. And I'll manually remove it from VNs where its child tags are used.

Opinions?

@Barfboy:
Please go over to t3314 and tell me what was the problem exactly so we can solve it. What is the problem? What should be changed? Even if you mentioned before, with the lack of a forum search function, I would have to wade through lots of posts to find it, which I really don't want to do.Last modified on 2013-07-09 at 01:04
#10 by abyssaleros
2013-06-09 at 18:46
@warfoki
Seems fine at cross reading.
I am in short time, so when I get a few moments I look over it.
But add Underground pornography or so to Producing Amateur Sex Videos and Photography to cover the rape flicks.
#11 by immlff
2013-07-08 at 00:08
Reminder/bookmark post.
Don't have time to go through this list atm, but will certainly do so within next 24 hours. Will edit this post then.

Edit:
176
g519
Forest

Description:
A significant part of the game is set in a forest.

Alias:
Wood
Woods
Woodland
"Wood" is too ambiguous. It is also not needed/useful because "Woods" alias will cover both search queries.

182
g166
Set in the Sengoku Jidai

Description:
These games are set in (or at least based upon) the Warring States Period of Japan.

Alias:
Warring States Period of Japan
Sengoku Period
Perhaps we can even swap the tag name and "Sengoku Period" alias. Sengoku Period is a more common name AFAIK and it is also shorter.

186
g550
Fictional Modern Day Japanese Countryside

Description:
This story is set in a fictional coutryside area of contemporary Japan.

Alias:
Fictional Modern Day Japanese Rural Area
Fictional Contemporary Japanese Countryside
Fictional Modern Day Japanese Rural Area
Remove: Fictional Modern Day Japanese rural town

Child tag of:
Remove: g222 (Fictional Modern Day Japanese Town)
Why would you add the same alias twice? Typo?
Also, like in all other similar cases, I assume you are going to move this tag one level higher.

223
g1667
Monogamous sex

Name:
Unavoidable Sexual Encounters with Multiple partners

Description:
The protagonist in this story engages in sexual activities with several partners without getting into a relationship with them.

It is also possible for the protagonist to be in a relationship while having these sexual encounters with other characters, yet they do not change his main relationship in any meaningful way.

(Reason: Monogamous Sex is currently useless, as its original goal was to filter out VNs where the protagonist would have sexual encounters with different characters in one playthrough beside their chosen heroine. However, this is such a broad description that it could be applied to at least 90% romance-eroges in the databse, making it nigh useless.

As such, we propose a backwards-approach: Instead of pointing out the myriad of games where the protagonist only has sex with one partner during a playthrough, this new tag would filter out the opposite: VNs where the protagonist has multiple sexual partners during a single walkthrough no matter what.
Another tag for optional encounters can be added later on demand.)
Your idea is ok but implementation should be different. We can't simply rename and repurpose already established tag, it was used differently and linked to VNs according to that previous use.
The most simple and practical solution here would be to delete this tag completely and make a new one with the name and description you are suggesting.

232
g1274
Sexual Innuendo

Child tag of:
g378 (Implementation of Sexual Content)
Actually this tag should not be under the Sexual Content (g23) or any of its child tags. The whole point of g1274 is to mark scenes that hint, joke or mention sex in some way, but do not show anything explicit.
If some vn has both g1274 and regular sex scenes, then appropriate tags should just be added separately.Last modified on 2013-07-08 at 19:32
#12 by takata
2013-07-08 at 07:03
#165 g566
Remove parent tag "athlete heroine". Not every heroine in a sports club is an athlete.

#223 g1667
I'm not sure the reverse approach will be much better, but you can try it. o.o

#230 g261
I suggest rewording the alias to "Rape of Male by Female", since "Rape by Female" would include yuri rape, but that might be a bit long. O.o? Either way, users should let the description overrule any ambiguity in a tag's name or aliases.

I think the main name is fine. Makes sense to me since the more typical or common direction of rape is male->female. o.o


#202-216
I suggest making "Blood-related incest" and "non-blood related incest" meta tags, although that would result in about 50 VN links being deleted.

@t4189.9 warfoki
How about these names for the child-tags? I think they're a bit less wordy.
-Production of Pornography (Amateur)
-Production of Pornography (Professional)
-Production of Pornography (Drawn)
-Consumtion of Pornography

Note that the amateur and professional tags exclude any drawn pornography, and the drawn tag should be used for both amateur (like doujin) and professional (like in an eroge development company) drawings.Last modified on 2013-07-08 at 07:03
#13 by immlff
2013-07-08 at 19:45
I have added feedback on the proposed changes to my previous post.
In all three parts of this tag overhaul I've only commented on the the points where I have something to add. If I didn't comment on something, then I have no issues with that change.

#165 g566
Remove parent tag "athlete heroine". Not every heroine in a sports club is an athlete.
Agree.
It also feels like there is something wrong with this (#165) change, or to be more precise with tag structure after this change, but I can't quite understand what exactly is bothering me.

As for the Pornography (g1402) tag, I would prefer to keep it broad and avoid adding multiple child tags. Otherwise we may end up with several tags that are hardly used or even not used at all.
Also, I think that this issue can be moved to a separate thread.Last modified on 2013-07-08 at 19:50
#14 by warfoki
2013-07-09 at 01:13
@Immlff:
176
g519
Forest

"Wood" is too ambiguous. It is also not needed/useful because "Woods" alias will cover both search queries.

OK.

182
g166
Set in the Sengoku Jidai

Perhaps we can even swap the tag name and "Sengoku Period" alias. Sengoku Period is a more common name AFAIK and it is also shorter.

OK.

186
g550
Fictional Modern Day Japanese Countryside

Why would you add the same alias twice? Typo?
Also, like in all other similar cases, I assume you are going to move this tag one level higher.

Yep. That wanted to be Fictional Contemporary Japanese Rural Area originally. Fix'd now. Also, yeah, I'm moving it one level higher, just forgot to note it. Also fix'd now.

223
g1667
Monogamous sex

Your idea is ok but implementation should be different. We can't simply rename and repurpose already established tag, it was used differently and linked to VNs according to that previous use.
The most simple and practical solution here would be to delete this tag completely and make a new one with the name and description you are suggesting.

Well, essentially that's exactly how I want to do it. Originally I wanted to save the tag in its current form, but after numerous edits I realised that there's no point in that, so we just reversed it. I just forgot to make a new entrance for it on the list.

232
g1274
Sexual Innuendo

Actually this tag should not be under the Sexual Content (g23) or any of its child tags. The whole point of g1274 is to mark scenes that hint, joke or mention sex in some way, but do not show anything explicit.
If some vn has both g1274 and regular sex scenes, then appropriate tags should just be added separately.

"Sexual content in this VN is implemented through jokes and hints, without directly showing anything explicit."

There, fits perfectly. I could move this from "sexual content" to "content" on the VN pages, since the lack of explicit content is the point of the tag, but I think it fits perfectly well under g378.

-------------------------
-------------------------
-------------------------

@Takata:
#165 g566
Remove parent tag "athlete heroine". Not every heroine in a sports club is an athlete.

OK.

#223 g1667
I'm not sure the reverse approach will be much better, but you can try it. o.o

Will do. :P If a tag can be used for like most of the visual novels, then it is probably too broad and should be reversed to make things easier to search.

#230 g261
I suggest rewording the alias to "Rape of Male by Female", since "Rape by Female" would include yuri rape, but that might be a bit long. O.o? Either way, users should let the description overrule any ambiguity in a tag's name or aliases.

OK. Also, ideally you're right of course, but cases of serious mistaggings obviously shows that lot of people don't actually read the descriptions, so I try to make the names themselves as foolproof as possible.

#202-216
I suggest making "Blood-related incest" and "non-blood related incest" meta tags, although that would result in about 50 VN links being deleted.

No. Just a theoratical example: two futanaris make each other pregnant, then have sex with their offsprings. Who is the mother and the father? And if the offsprings are also futanaris then are they daugthers or sons? Also, there are people out there for whom non-blood related incest is okay, but wouldn't touch VNs with blood related incest with a 10 foot pole. It's easier to include/exclude stuff this way.

Bottom line: making these meta tags would create a lot of problems and solve none. And if it ain't broke', don't fix it.

@t4189.9 warfoki
How about these names for the child-tags? I think they're a bit less wordy.
-Production of Pornography (Amateur)
-Production of Pornography (Professional)
-Production of Pornography (Drawn)
-Consumtion of Pornography

Much better than my lengthy, overcomplicated titles, thanks! Also added the note to the drawn one.

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@Immlff
As for the Pornography (g1402) tag, I would prefer to keep it broad and avoid adding multiple child tags. Otherwise we may end up with several tags that are hardly used or even not used at all.

First of all, the current tag is useless as is. It's way too broad and if every VN where it is relevant would get tagged with it, pretty much nobody would find what they were looking for.

And secondly, this worry is a non-issue. I've seen examples for all four already, so by the time I get to the end of my loooooooooooong list of "VNs to be tagged" just me alone will probably use all of them.

Also, I think that this issue can be moved to a separate thread.

Nope, these threads were made EXACTLY for the purpose of dealing with any upcoming issues regarding the planned changes. It's not my fault or problem if hardly anyone voiced their opinions.Last modified on 2013-07-09 at 09:45
#15 by takata
2013-07-09 at 02:55
About the pornography tags:
I'm against making more tags and traits than are really neccesary, so maybe child tags for "production" and "comsumption" would be enough. Also, I never thought the original tag would include consumption anyway. o.o

I'm not saying -this- tag is bad, but I wish people would put more effort in when submitting new tags for moderation. They only have to look at their one or two (or more) tags, but the moderator has to look at them all. >.>Last modified on 2013-07-09 at 02:55
#16 by immlff
2013-07-09 at 16:31
232
g1274
Sexual Innuendo

"Sexual content in this VN is implemented through jokes and hints, without directly showing anything explicit."

There, fits perfectly. I could move this from "sexual content" to "content" on the VN pages, since the lack of explicit content is the point of the tag, but I think it fits perfectly well under g378.
It does not fit under g378 because of how the tag system works. If an entry is tagged with a child tag, then it will also turn up in searches for parent tags linked to that child. This is also true for negation.
So if someone does not want to see any explicit sexual scenes in a VN, he will negate Sexual Content (g23) from his search (this is the sole reason why g23 is not a meta tag, because you can't negate meta tags). But this will also remove from his search all VNs tagged with g1274, even though they frequently don't feature any real sex scenes at all.

About the pornography tags:
I'm against making more tags and traits than are really neccesary, so maybe child tags for "production" and "comsumption" would be enough. Also, I never thought the original tag would include consumption anyway. o.o
I agree with this approach.

And I'll answer one related question that was asked here earlier.
Question about it's use. Obviously a game that involves a pornographic photo shoot is included, what about games where the protagonist secretly films girls in sexual situations to blackmail them like Shusaku v1130 or how about someone making an eroge like Shiiko Love v7432 but it's the protagonist just drawing cg art?
Regarding Shusaku (v1130), pornography is not a real theme here, it's just Rape with Blackmail (g663). In other words, it's just a minor element, a tool, the story wouldn't change all that much if he used some other way to blackmail them.
I didn't play this game, so I may be wrong about this particular example, but you should get the general idea.
#17 by warfoki
2013-07-09 at 21:00
1. Sexual innuendo:
I still don't see any problem with putting it there. There are quite a few tags out there under Sexual Content, that does not require explicit sexual content on-screen. Just to name one, you can have a rapist protagonist, without showing any of the rape. So excluding sexual content is a stupid move as is, we have a "No Sexual Content" tag for a reason. I'll also plan to do something with the Sexual Content tag, but that's for later.

2. Pornography:

I'll stick with my tag-system here. Reasons:
a) If I just add "production" and "consumption" then the exact same problem remains: production is too broad and covers several, completely different things.
b) If add professional pornography, then why not the amateur one? No real reason there.
c) And I refuse to draw the line at "legal amateur pornography", since consensuality, and with that legality, is an ambiguous enough issue IRL, even without hentai type mindbreaks, mind controls, insane aphrodisiac and the like. That'd just overcomplicate things and create a shitton of borderline cases.

And I really see problem with my proposal here:
1) It has clear cut, mutually exclusive definitions on the production tags.
2) They will be used, since I've seen examples for all of them.
3) They are obvious and easy to search.

Also, Immlff, these are not theme tags, these are sexual content tags, don't mix the two. I've yet to see a VN where Missionary Position is a _theme_, yet I myself tagged a lot of VNs with it, since it's present.
#18 by immlff
2013-07-10 at 19:38
1. Sexual innuendo:
I still don't see any problem with putting it there. There are quite a few tags out there under Sexual Content, that does not require explicit sexual content on-screen. Just to name one, you can have a rapist protagonist, without showing any of the rape. So excluding sexual content is a stupid move as is, we have a "No Sexual Content" tag for a reason. I'll also plan to do something with the Sexual Content tag, but that's for later.
I've already explained why it should not be there. Other tags under Sexual Content are all used for thing that almost always involve explicit H-scenes. Sexual Innuendo (g1274), on the other hand, is used exclusively (so far) for games without it. And in stray cases user can always tag innuendo and H-content separately.
Sexual Content tag group is for tags that assume explicit sex scenes, Sexual innuendo is precisely for scenes where no explicit ero was shown.

You are forgetting that the real purpose of tags is to allow people to search what they want. Everything in the tag system should serve this purpose, so cases like this are not even arguable. If it hinders the ability to search for things, then it should be fixed.
This is an objective improvement, so I'll just change it myself after we finish this discussion.

2. Pornography:

I'll stick with my tag-system here. Reasons:
a) If I just add "production" and "consumption" then the exact same problem remains: production is too broad and covers several, completely different things.
b) If add professional pornography, then why not the amateur one? No real reason there.
c) And I refuse to draw the line at "legal amateur pornography", since consensuality, and with that legality, is an ambiguous enough issue IRL, even without hentai type mindbreaks, mind controls, insane aphrodisiac and the like. That'd just overcomplicate things and create a shitton of borderline cases.

And I really see problem with my proposal here:
1) It has clear cut, mutually exclusive definitions on the production tags.
2) They will be used, since I've seen examples for all of them.
3) They are obvious and easy to search.
You are saying this like you are the only one who decides such things. I don't consider such division to be necessary or useful, you do. This means that we need more opinions and proper discussion, which apparently won't happen in this thread. So either you or I should open new thread for this issue.
Oh, and Pornography should not be used for minor separate cases, like what I have described before. Otherwise it won't be useful, no one cares how exactly Girl X was blackmailed into things in your average nukige. It is much more useful to apply it to games where it is real theme, something that matters.

Also, Immlff, these are not theme tags, these are sexual content tags, don't mix the two. I've yet to see a VN where Missionary Position is a _theme_, yet I myself tagged a lot of VNs with it, since it's present.
You are generalizing too much. Many Sexual Content tags are not themes, but not all. Things like Sexual Slavery, Chikan or "Rape with Blackmail" are used as theme tags because extremely large number of VNs revolve around these concepts as their main theme. Similar approach should be also used for Pornography tag.
#19 by yorhel
2013-07-10 at 19:52
Sexual Content tag group is for tags that assume explicit sex scenes, Sexual innuendo is precisely for scenes where no explicit ero was shown.
Kinda agreeing with immlff here. The parent-child relatioship can be taken less strict for meta tags, but g23 has specifically not been made a meta tag in order to make filtering on explicit sexual scenes easier.
#20 by warfoki
2013-07-31 at 14:16
#167-168:
If I move those, then logically I should also move other student tags from under the other school tags, and that's a massive change, so I'll put that up for discussion later. Skipping these now.

#231:
I've brought up a number of reasons why do I think this restructuring a good idea and why would leaving the tag alone make it useless in the long. Nobody bothered to actually give any objective reasons why my recommendation would be counter-productive of to refute my arguments. Also, this was up to discussion here for almost two months at this point.
Also, yes, we have theme-related tags under Sexual Content. BUT tags here don't have to be themes. In fact most of the child tags of Sexual Content are NOT themes. And I didn't make the Pornography tag into a meta-tag exactly so it can be used as a theme. Hell, I've even added an extra line to description exactly for this.

With all that said, I see no point in dragging this out any further, so changes are implemented.

#232
I still believe that Sexual Innuendo should go under Implementation of Sexual Content. To exclude Sexual Content, we have a way better method: simply search for the No Sexual Content tag. There. Much easier and better than excluding Sexual Content. To name one reason: LOTS of VNs aren't tagged at all. A lot of these obviously have sexual content in them. If you just exclude sexual content, these will pop-up in the search results. If you search for No Sexual Content, they won't.

Also, this tag was created as a child tag of Sexual Content in the first place and nobody had problems with that until now. So I am completely against changing my recommendation here.

With that being said, I'm still going to move Sexual Innuendo under g360 instead of g378. Yorhel disapproved of my idea, and since this is his site, if he thinks this is for the best, then I oblige, regardless of my opinion in the matter.

And with that the entire tag overhaul is now complete.

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