Misc. site updates

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#51 by yorhel
2015-11-27 at 00:06
< report >Meh, UI design is hard. I'll try to keep the information compact and organized so there's less scrolling to do. I very much like to explore other layouts before bloating the site with complex customization options.

I remember Yorhel talking about my code contribution as should pay attention to database load.
Performance is critical, but not the only thing that matters. Thanks to the recent database rework, this update has barely any effect on the performance. For the record, I wouldn't have put the staff info on the main VN pages before the database rework.

I could easily find other ways to benefit more from increased database load.
Feel free to suggest improvements!

and that is that notes on staff entry can be spoiler's but are forced in view now
There should not be any spoilery information in the staff data, so feel free to edit the "true" part out.
#52 by isellpc
2015-11-27 at 01:27
< report >ネタバレは立派な犯罪だぞ!Last modified on 2015-11-27 at 23:31
#53 by eacil
2015-11-27 at 02:09
< report >What about loading all the tabs and use JS to make them appear instantly?

What I dislike with the new staff design (besides the fact I tried to complete staffs already filled) is that the note fields are not on the same level, what makes some staff unreadable.
I have nothing against a collapse mode with the old design (i.e. one column), which is the same as using JS on tabs (now that I am thinking about it, that's why AniDB uses and it's fine).

Not sure displaying seiyuu on main page is that important but I seriously don't want to see thumbnails with pictures of the cast (or even a single trait) as it can be a serious spoiler for my kind.
#54 by wakaranai
2015-11-27 at 02:55
< report >^wow, that entry was a mess. fixed it. please stick to guidelines and don't add so many minor roles.
#55 by eacil
2015-11-27 at 03:12
Ok, if that what it is, fearing to be edited by the local douche each time you take the time to add data, I will stop adding staff for good. Fuck, he even edited the difference between Original Character-designer and Character-designer.
#56 by wakaranai
2015-11-27 at 03:39
< report >you're welcome ^_^
#57 by yorhel
2015-11-27 at 04:34
< report >Sometimes I wonder why I'm still working on this site... In fact quite a bit more often than "sometimes".
#58 by warfoki
2015-11-27 at 05:40
< report >@Wakaranai: So your answer to "well, this much data can't fit here with this layout" is the removal of data. In a database. Instead of trying to fix the layout. I don't even...Last modified on 2015-11-27 at 05:41
#59 by wakaranai
2015-11-27 at 06:24
< report >"fixing part" was a tease, i like provoking eacil, his nerdrage is so funny. the serious part is that it was agreed in the very beginning that staff is limited to a certain roles, and animators simply don't fit there. and their role IS minor, key, and especially in-between animators are nameless monkeys, their job is non-creative, monotonous and technical by the most part, and, just for the record, it's the most underpaid job in anime industry.Last modified on 2015-11-27 at 06:27
#60 by eacil
2015-11-27 at 08:33
< report >
and animators simply don't fit there. and their role IS minor, key, and especially in-between animators are nameless monkeys, their job is non-creative, monotonous and technical by the most part, and, just for the record, it's the most underpaid job in anime industry
God, how can it be possible to be so retarded? So who drew the pictures in Sisters, jackass? *SIGH*
Oh, I understand, you faked idiocy again, to make me boil... well well well, you faked so well in each of your comments that I didn't see anything. You got me all the way. haha ha
#61 by warfoki
2015-11-27 at 08:34
< report >@Wakaranai:
True, but that's beside the point. The point is that such a clusterfuck CAN happen, when it really shouldn't. With the old layout this wasn't a problem. If we have a separate tab, then there's enough space to add long notes, minor staff under "staff" (I agree that animators shouldn't be under "artist", but if we have separate tabs, then I see no problem with listing them under misc staff), thumbnails and whatever else turns out to be useful later on. All of that without making the main page overly lenghty and busy.Last modified on 2015-11-27 at 10:24
#62 by silence
2015-11-27 at 12:57
< report >Hello! Slowpoke is here xD
Sorry, but I can't say I'm glad there are no tabs anymore. Most of the time I'd like to see the screenshots without scrolling down the page. And sometimes there is so much staff_&_cast, that it looks terrible.
#63 by warfoki
2015-11-27 at 14:49
< report >@Yorhel: Aw, come on, I've been around since 2010-ish and this is the first time I've ever seen an actual backlash against an update. I think everybody here appreciates your work, considering that the site has only become faster and better in the past years. I do consider this current update a mistake, but that's pretty much a first.
#64 by isellpc
2015-11-27 at 18:48
< report >良い子は見ちゃダメ!Last modified on 2015-11-27 at 23:31
#65 by venomg3
2015-11-27 at 19:31
< report >d16#1
Staff entries represent individuals and groups that play significant roles in visual novels production, such as script writers, character designers, artists, voice actors, composers and singers.

that's all the staff entries were ever supposed to be and if it had been kept that way rather then people taking liberties to include any role they thought had merit the staff being on the main page wouldn't be such a clusterF***

this is why im glad the staff is one the main page as its now subject to being streamlined to every casual passing by a page
where as when it was its own page its quite clear liberties were being taking to include any role that a user thought had merit

it can be
either staff on main page with primary staff only
a staff tab with a near 1:1 ratio of a games actual credits

but not both as it simply wont work it be to much bloat for the main tab

these random ramblings brought to you by waiting for euphoria to download.Last modified on 2015-11-29 at 06:15
#66 by eacil
2015-11-27 at 21:52
< report >@isellpc: I was going to tell you that background artists are not considered minor roles on vndb but you are right, I didn't see that doucheman even removed the background artist along with the "color design", the original character design and a lot of other things. You know, that guy have NO IDEA of what is he doing and I suspect that most people here too don't really know what the job of an animator is on a fully animated VN (like animation is about loop, right?). venomg3 is pointing the guidelines but it never took in consideration fully animated VN because those VN are in a minority.
So you should start from the very beginning: what's an animator, what is he doing and apply that to a VN like Sisters. Of course, you could explain why a storyboards is important too and some other stuff like that.

You know, it's not the first time I see dudes like wakaranai. I often see them at the head of associations, clubs, political parties, etc. By nature, they are douche and like every douche, nobody love them. Seriously, who want to love an asshole? They know they are all alone in their shit (reality is hard even if they feel so valuable) but like human is a social animal, they need to be special. So, what they do? They seek _influence_. They acquire skills for that and use them to became indispensable in the organisation they chose. Like that, even if they are douche, you can't just push them out of your car. By intensely licking asses of "superiors" in the social organisation, those superiors can't really say anything because that would mean they will lose a useful asset. So, they have what they want and you will see them in their mighty doucheness doing ridiculous silly things for the sake of feeling their influence, thinking that submission is love, that thing they wanted.
How you can notice that kind of douche? Well, you can start by reading their private section and see how in every answer they don't think much about those bugs who dare to question their authority, because it's all about that, a douche will never seek the truth with objective arguments, he is too stupid for that, he will just try to be right and securing its authority. So, don't be surprised if the dude say a joke each time he open is mouth but be ready to have him on your back if you laugh and that will be really annoying. You will be tempted to quit because you don't really care about your position but that's how they win.

Oh, once last thing, isellpc, it's pointless to explain what is the duty of a database because when yorhel is talking about completeness as the duty of a db, he is talking about trashy MT but not """""""minor roles""""""" for I don't know what reason. It's the first time I see a DB that forbid some staff data and users that are all about removing those data without values. Haha, now yorhel will once again ask himself why he is still working on this website when he sees so many ingrates like myself.
#67 by skorpiondeath
2015-11-27 at 22:11
< report >I stand by eacil side. I politely ask for some hidden tab where is possible to add minor roles. I liked the idea of having major roles on first page and minor roles on a separate tab. We can try to take 2 birds with 1 stone...everyone is happy and Yorhel loves us again :D.Last modified on 2015-11-27 at 22:11
#68 by jazz957
2015-11-27 at 22:12
< report >What's the point of "Staff" as one the choices for credit, if it's not for minor roles? :P
#69 by venomg3
2015-11-27 at 22:22
< report >interesting
while that info would be unimportant info on most,
Ex. for who implemented emote or who did the animated H-scene,
for fully animated games like Sisters ~Natsu no Saigo no Hi~ staff probably needs to include animators <I hate exceptions>Last modified on 2015-11-27 at 22:30
#70 by warfoki
2015-11-27 at 22:43
< report >@Eacil:
Dude. Chill. The. Fuck. Out.

Seriously, while I agree you on the matter of allowing the "minor roles" to be noted as "misc staff", throwing a temper tantrum is not the way to convince anyone. Do you really think that Wakaranai will reconsider anything if you fling a barrage of ad hominems in his general direction? I know I wouldn't. I would just get pissed. And then you go out to antagonise Yorhel as well. Are you out of your mind? This entire place wouldn't exist without his enthusiasm for fuck's sake. Would you prefer not having VNDB over not being able to add animators? If yes, then congratulations, you've just antagonised pretty much the entire userbase here. And if not, then please don't fling shit all over the place. Calm down and discuss things in a collected, reasonable fashion instead of starting a flamewar. This angry bullshitting is uncalled for, and frankly, unwanted here.
#71 by isellpc
2015-11-27 at 23:47
< report >良い子は見ちゃダメ!Last modified on 2015-11-28 at 02:01
#72 by eacil
2015-11-28 at 00:10
< report >@warfoki:
I had not the slightest intention to convince anybody. wakaneri because I know what kind of insulting people he is, the kind I described (no bullshiting, that what I think from experience) that will never hear any argument without a good lick, what I am not ready to do how deviant I could be. The only solution is to erase him... or me.
Well, yorhel, I didn't have the will to insult him or anything hence the lucidity of my final sentence and the fact I called myself an ingrate but I already tried to convince him and that didn't work (I was too late, my bad) so I was merely pointing out the incoherence because that's how I work, with sarcasm, otherwise it's just falling in dead ears. I am just a bug that bugs. If we add key animator, then I will need to fight for in-between animators then storyboarders, then color designer, chief animation supervisor and other director/supervisor post, etc. No thank you. The staff db will be fine without me because minor role is not the editorial line I can agree with anymore if that how hours of hard work checking every fucking single job in the credits of Sisters is rewarded for the sake of appreciating my "nerdrage" by someone who has no knowledge on the matter he judges besides the fact he called monkey men that built the entire anime industry. Yeah, Tezuka is such a monkey! He obviously took the edit and remove the more he could for his egoistic purpose but like he added a little sorry at the end and he coded the staff sheet, he is a good guy. I am so tired...

If I really didn't value the work of yorhel, why would I came with suggestions, report bugs, or test every single new feature he did and give my opinion like... before doucheman came in the thread?

Note: I am pretty sure the tag system applied to the staff would have been so much simpler and you could have flagged major an minor roles for the sake of the UI.
Note2: we have no idea, for example, what is truly a major and a minor role for every PC98 game because credits weren't fixed at that time, could cover a wide range of jobs. It was up to every maker. Go go wakaranai, go butchering every single PC98 VN I linked staff to it.Last modified on 2015-11-28 at 00:19
#73 by yorhel
2015-11-28 at 00:24
< report >Eacil, seriously, just shut up if you can't stay calm. I'm perfectly willing to listen to reason, but not to rage. Also keep in mind that wakaranai is not a moderator, he does not have authority over the staff DB just because he coded it.

That said, when we designed the staff DB (in public, mind you) we did agree to list only very specific major roles. I'm absolutely not against listing other roles, but it's good to think about the implications that this has; Do we need to expand on the list of possible roles to choose from? Or do we just need a "minor" flag so that it's easier to organize the information? Clearly I didn't realize that we had this scope issue in the first place when I moved the staff info to the main page.

I'm, however, not convinced that the old staff tab was the way to go. It's important to keep information organized and all, but discoverability is also an issue, and the old staff tab was terrible in that aspect (to the point that some people only realized VNDB had staff info at all since the recent update). I think a more compact view with "expand"/"collapse"-like functionality might work better here.
#74 by yorhel
2015-11-28 at 01:29
< report >Another minor update that'll cause outrage: Restyled the seiyuu info on the VN pages.
#75 by abyssaleros
2015-11-28 at 01:50
< report >Hey, hey I was not raging, I just have asked if there is a way to disable this feature as I still find staff related information unimportant. The only staff that possible really matters imho is the scenario writer, maybe. Everything else is just a sack of rice somewhere in china.

BTW could someone be so nice to reveal to me what I have to enter as CSS to disable the character summary?Last modified on 2015-11-28 at 02:03