Is the current beta patch good?

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#1 by fonmaster
2014-01-22 at 17:26
< report >I really wanna read this now but I don't want to ruin the experience with crappy editing like the Clannad After Story translation. Should I wait for an official release?
#2 by gerardlonewolf
2014-01-22 at 17:48
< report >Why would they call it a beta if it's perfect?
#3 by fonmaster
2014-01-22 at 17:58
< report >I don't expect it to be perfect, that's not what I'm asking. I just want to know if its good enough to play (No random Japanese lines and Horrible Engrish)
#4 by faranielle
2014-03-29 at 01:08
< report >I just finished it, there are some sentences that are a bit strange to read, but all in all it´s acceptable.
#5 by rubytyr
2014-05-25 at 16:32
< report >Winter Confetti's is "ok" - it gets the job done at the very least. Though it's a fairly lazy translation tbh - alot of what's said is either turned into extreme shorthand, or completely different altogether.

Still, I'm not looking a gift-horse in the mouth (as a finished translation is better then nothing) but if you have a firm grasp of verbal japanese, then you can easily tell what is and is not being said.
#6 by ffthewinner
2014-05-25 at 20:52
< report >what about the other translation,the one still in beta?
#7 by yirba
2014-05-26 at 19:52
< report >To be honest, I think Sheeta and Ixrec were favouring readability over accuracy with this translation. There are a lot of parts in the original Japanese that are fairly redundant. Redundancy is more common in Japanese, but in English it can be a tad annoying to be frank, so the translation tends not to bother with that. So I wouldn't say you're exactly missing anything with this translation.

As for the other translation, yes, it's still in beta.
#8 by ffthewinner
2014-05-26 at 20:52
< report >i know it is in beta,i was asking about its quality lol. reread what i said.
#9 by yirba
2014-05-27 at 07:57
< report >Whoops, I misunderstood. (>_<) I haven't tried it myself, but I hear it's a good translation. Sadly I can't say I'm happy with how they've handled and how they're handling the project, so it's something I really can't support.
#10 by ffthewinner
2014-05-27 at 19:14
< report >" I can't say I'm happy with how they've handled and how they're handling the project, so it's something I really can't support."

what did they do?i am curious lol
#11 by yirba
2014-05-27 at 21:24
< report >I might as well be completely open about some of the things that occurred between the two translation projects. As full disclosure though, I was on the Winter Confetti translation team, but these are my own personal thoughts:

Winter Confetti's project was announced in August 2012. Four months later, in December, Gao Gao announced that they too would be translating AIR. Starting a project while an existing project is in the works is already a daring thing to do, but the worst thing was that they decided to steal Enter The Wired's abandoned translation and build upon that. It's generally pretty bad form to steal other people's translations without their permission. Just to be clear: The Winter Confetti translation is based on Edger's existing translation. The difference is that we didn't steal it. Edger handed over his translation to us.

In January 2013, Gao Gao contacted Winter Confetti asking if we could work together. We said we'd be "more than happy" to work with them, and didn't hear anything from them afterwards. Gao Gao would later go on to antagonise us and lie about how we apparently refused to cooperate. And to be honest, even if we did refuse, I don't think it would have been such an evil thing.

Then in February, perhaps due to all the complaints that their translation quality was awful (apparently they've improved a lot, though), Gao Gao announced they were cancelling the project. In fact, they continued to work on the project "from the shadows". Which I personally find rather childish. I mean, if you have any faith at all in your project, there's really no need to hide away like that.

While they were working "from the shadows", they made a certain well-known member of the VN community contact other people in the community and say the project was ongoing after all, in the hopes that rumours of the project's existence would spread. This was really suspicious, but unluckily for them, nobody cared about the project and the rumours never spread far.

Finally in July, Gao Gao came out from "the shadows" and released their first beta patch, along with their official statement on the matter, rife with errors and lies.

One last thing that I'm certainly not keen on is that Gao Gao's patch only works on a certain pirate copy. It doesn't work on official releases. They even link to the torrent for this pirate copy on their website, which really irks me.

Still, it's not all bad. Gao Gao did help us out with a few technical problems we had with our patch, and I'm sure they never meant to do any harm. But it is for these reasons that I can't support their project.
#12 by cowteats
2014-05-28 at 08:29
< report >I think we should stop harping on this topic. But I just feel the need to correct the misunderstanding. I'm the main translator for Gao Gao translation's AIr.

In response to Yirba:
"hey decided to steal Enter The Wired's abandoned translation and build upon that. It's generally pretty bad form to steal other people's translations without their permission."

There are three reasons why this can't be true.
1) I am friends with ex-Leader of EnterTheWired, Aeka. You can verify that by asking at Tengu Translations website.
2) I was once part of EnterTheWired for a few months, but due to work and real life I had to quit. So, I'd be practically stealing from myself if I were stealing.
3) Kenn, the translator of the Summer arc from EnterTheWired, came to me to offer his old translation. (Unknowing to him we already inherited most of his scripts)

"We said we'd be "more than happy" to work with them"
I was told by Aozaki that he approached Sheeta and got refused. Ixrec also came into the #vnsociety channel to indirectly say why group collaboration is a bad idea. I can offer the full log if you want.

"perhaps due to all the complaints that their translation quality was awful"
I'm a JPLT1 holder who had lived in Japan for a year. I was also an anime fansubber on-and-off from 2007 to 2011. I had worked with Moogy before when he was still doing anime fansubbing.

"there's really no need to hide away like that."
We don't like to attention whore.
"in the hopes that rumours of the project's existence would spread."
But we don't like to attention whore.
In fact, almost nobody knows about our project until we released the first beta patch.

"Gao Gao's patch only works on a certain pirate copy. "
The piracy issue has been argued to hell and back. We do not support or condone piracy. It is just a tool for us. If you feel you're on higher moral ground by slapping hacked ps2 voice files on an official copy, feel free to do so.Last modified on 2014-05-28 at 08:45
#13 by kaku
2014-05-28 at 08:52
< report >
I can offer the full log if you want.

Might as well just do it at this point.
#14 by warfoki
2014-05-28 at 08:55
< report >Hmm... This looks interesting.

*prepares popcorn*
#15 by gerardlonewolf
2014-05-28 at 08:59
< report >Sit back and enjoy the thread.
#16 by ffthewinner
2014-05-28 at 09:25
< report >...i was hoping someone will appear,but never ever expected it will actually happen lol. this is amazing!

a question to cow,can you please tell me what is the translation method you used?how much"translating freedom"was used?i am curious :)

also,amazing that you have JPLT1! how hard was the exam lol?

also,when do you guys expect to release the full final version of the translation?Last modified on 2014-05-28 at 09:41
#17 by yirba
2014-05-28 at 15:53
< report >Thanks for sharing your thoughts, cowteats. That does clear some things up, which is what I wanted.

In terms of using the existing scripts, I guess everything worked out okay in terms of everyone giving their permission in the end, but it certainly seemed like, at least at first, that Aozaki was using your scripts with none of your permissions, which would be slightly questionable. Still, I digress…

Straight from Twitter:

@QuizMasterDelux: "@Sheeta_Su @ooki95 Would be nice if we could somehow work together. But judging from what I've heard about you I doubt you will. Offers Up!"

@Sheeta_Su: "@QuizMasterDelux I've got translation and editing covered already, but if you guys want to help with something else I'm more than happy..."

@Sheeta_Su: "@QuizMasterDelux team up. I've got 28% of the game tled already. If you want to talk in more detail, PM me on IRC (I'm Sheeta on Rizon)"

Sheeta and Ixrec didn't want to use your existing scripts, but it was far from an outright refusal to work together. Sheeta offered to discuss the situation with Aozaki, but never heard anything from him and so assumed he wasn't interested. I suppose there could have been a bit of a misunderstanding, but it wasn't meant to be taken as a refusal. Whatever Ixrec said on IRC is a separate matter, really. Even so, it is true that group collaboration can cause issues.

Honestly, even though people have complained about translation quality, I'm sure it was and is fine. This community has proved themselves to be terrible judges of translation quality, so I wouldn't pay the people who were making those comments any attention. I'm sure Gao Gao has taken a great amount of care with the translation and that it is of a good quality. Still, those complaints did occur, no matter how erroneously.

I can understand some of the reasons why you may have wanted to hide in "the shadows", but the fact is no matter how you look at it, doing so seems mighty suspicious.

"In fact, almost nobody knows about our project until we released the first beta patch."

And even so, I and other people on Twitter were sent DMs from someone as instructed by Gao Gao, saying that the project was still ongoing and that the group wanted to secretly drum up interest. And yes, as far as I can tell, this information didn't spread very far, and so "almost nobody" knew about it. But messaging random members of the community to say that the project is not dead after all is even more suspicious and weird than keeping it hidden.

"We do not support or condone piracy."
Yet to be able to use your patch, one must pirate the game. You also link to a torrent of the game from your website. Something about that doesn't ring true to not condoning piracy.

At the end of the day though, I know you put a lot of effort into this good quality translation. Although I personally take issue with some things (as well as probably making mountains out of molehills), I'm just glad to see AIR get the attention it deserves. So good luck with your future releases! ^^
#18 by cross
2014-05-28 at 16:53
< report >It's still sad to see another case of "two translations for one game" after Cross Channel.
Also, what is it with fan translators and anti-piracy? Everybody and their mothers just download and don't give further fucks about it. On the other hand translators shit their pants (Insani), get angry at people uploading their patches to different hosts (Rusanon) and generally act like they didn't just pissed on copyrights themselves...
#19 by warfoki
2014-05-28 at 17:19
< report >@Cross:

Visibility. Pretty much no one give a flying fuck about you if you're just one of the small fishes in the ocean of torrents, downloading random shit. Sure, there's always an extremely low chance of getting singled out and caught, but generally copyright mooks are going for the distributors. Which would be the translator group in our case. Also, doing so makes it iffy for companies to actually use your stuff for possible official releases in the future and increases the chance for C&D notices.

Practical reasons really. More or less the same ones why piracy is not allowed on VNDB.

Of course it's also possible that the translators genuinely oppose piracy and want people to buy the stuff they translate and help the companies, but my guess is that it's mainly a practical issue, not a moral one.Last modified on 2014-05-28 at 17:21
#20 by encrypted12345
2014-05-28 at 18:42
< report >@cross It's mostly just in case they get noticed by the original game company though admittedly, it doesn't completely stop a C&D. While I think a good amount of translators do want people to support the original makers, it's not so much that they are firmly against all people pirating, they just want the people who can actually afford the game to buy it.
#21 by cross
2014-05-28 at 19:03
< report >I see. They might as well just write "Please don't sue us, nyan~~".
#22 by yirba
2014-05-28 at 20:30
< report >The "not getting C&D'd" thing is certainly part of it, though I am genuinely opposed to piracy in a lot of cases.

To sum up my view: If something is easily purchasable, if the creators will profit from sales, if the creators have made the effort to get it to you, and if you can afford it, then piracy is no excuse.

I do very much care about supporting the creators. The reason I'm in the translation scene is because these works mean a lot to me and I appreciate the creators bringing them to us. So I'd definitely like to see creators gain revenue from their products.

I'm not so blind that I think it's possible to stop piracy outright. But what I would like to see is translation groups taking the initiative to encourage the purchase of legal copies. If someone wants to pirate the game, they'll know where to find it, so don't link to torrents — link to websites where you can buy the game instead. Give people the option to buy the game if they want to. If you make your patch incompatible with official releases, you're shutting out the people who want to support the creators.

I do own a copy of AIR myself, and it was a very worthwhile purchase. I don't expect everyone to do the same, but if you love visual novels half as much as I do, I'd strongly suggest showing support to the people who made them.
#23 by cross
2014-05-28 at 20:45
< report >Well, I would probably buy VNs if they were available in my country as hardcopies, for collecting purposes. I would never buy download versions though, as they are the same as warez, just bought with money (and maybe even DRM on top, so a WORSE product compared to FREE warez). Also, paying over 100$ for an imported japanese copy is ridiculous.Last modified on 2014-05-28 at 20:45
#24 by pendelhaven
2014-05-28 at 20:59
< report >This thread feels really similar to a topic once discussed more than 3 years ago. Damn I really hate how the thread board has no search box.

anyways, fan TLs won't make VNs easier to purchase anytime soon simply because cyberspace is too fast while "real world" is not only extremely slow, there are morals and politics to consider as well. to wit:

1. international waters
2. shipping costs
3. age rating
4. customs (or whatever similar gov't branch)

All of this which hinders to a sale. And no one in their right mind would choose slow transaction over fast cyberspace.

Sure, there's the option to buy VNs in download edition only, but honestly I have no idea why credit card transactions are "slow". Until there's a way for a legit purchase to be as fast as, well, piracy, people will always prefer fast and free (even if its wrong) than the slow one.Last modified on 2014-05-28 at 21:03
#25 by rusanon
2014-05-29 at 05:56
< report >@18
If people don't buy stuff, creators will not have funds to make new games. Unlike mainstream games with millions sales, in VN market every sale matters, so if you enjoyed game, there's no excuse for not paying creators for it.

What are you talking about? DLsite sales are instant, for example. You click "buy" and it presents you with direct-download link immediately.
Even for hardcopies, nothing stops you from getting one and using torrents for actually playing it.
I didn't even open any hardcopy I own, because in all cases I've finished playing game before my copy arrived.