Rather higher quality than what I've tasted

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#1 by flare
2014-09-26 at 18:00
Sure, the translation is shit, but that's the translator's fault, and sure, there's only one bitch to play with this time at the start of the game, but I can't complain about the sex scenes when you have an honorable ninja warrior reduced to a pig-fucking whore. The best part is... it's animated. Holy cow. Didn't see that coming.

Not bad, Black Lilith. Not bad at all. You don't see many translated nukige with animated h-scenes, let alone translated non-nukige VNs (Key's works, Grisaia, etc.).Last modified on 2014-09-26 at 18:01
#2 by overmage
2014-09-27 at 13:39
Asagi has always been one of the better fetish nukige series out there.Last modified on 2014-09-27 at 13:39
#3 by tyr
2014-09-28 at 09:03
Maybe, if you consider only English translated nukige. If you compare the game to all the actually good fetish nukige out there, it's simply trash like every other game from Black Lilith too. Entertaining trash, I'll give you that, but nevertheless trash.

I never understood why people hype Black Lilith so much ... or wait, I exactly know why! Because people don't care about good erotic prose describing good erotic situation, they only care about shiny and pretty animated ahegaos and over-the-top retarded dirty talk in their porn fest.

On the other hand, the Asagi live action adaption is actually one of the finer JAVs out there. Highly recommended.
#4 by magic9mushroom
2014-09-28 at 09:23
@OP: Your use of the term "bitch" to refer to female PCs reveals much. But yes, if all you want to see is women being abused, Taimanin Asagi certainly delivers.

School Days isn't a nukige, though, and it's fully animated (including H-scenes).

@#2 (overmage): Degradation of women can be fetishised, but that's pretty much the only fetish in Taimanin Asagi (there's that ending with the tentacles in hell, but that's not very long) - the term "fetish nukige" has to be stretched a bit to fit and even then there are way better ones around like MGQ and Marunomi. And the writing in TA is just awful; some of the AMATEUR erotic lit I read is better-quality.Last modified on 2014-09-28 at 09:28
#5 by overmage
2014-09-28 at 13:50
they only care about shiny and pretty animated ahegaos and over-the-top retarded dirty talk in their porn fest.

Er yeah, that's actually what I read asagi for. Your point...? Yeah, I don't care for high quality prose in my fap material. And some people can't even get off to words at all. Why police people's choices? I think it's funnier that you're trying to introduce elitism into something like this. "you plebs fap to low quality material!" Now I've seen it all!

@#2 (overmage): Degradation of women can be fetishised, but that's pretty much the only fetish in Taimanin Asagi

You'll note I said "nukige series", the other asagi vns excepting the first have a lot of fetish fuel. No real stretching needed. By the way, I believe the more accurate term is mindbreak.

And the writing in TA is just awful

That's mostly the fault of the translator. The original Japanese is no Murakami, but it's not quite fanfic-tier.Last modified on 2014-09-28 at 13:56
#6 by tyr
2014-09-28 at 14:46
Is it elitism if I want my visual NOVEL to have good writing?
#7 by sevenbar
2014-09-28 at 14:46
#3 Could you list some nukige that has good erotic prose? I just want to know what I have missed.
#8 by tyr
2014-09-28 at 15:41
#7:
Everything by DotenMeikai is amazing: v12034 v8731 v2433 v2432
His non-nukige are even better although they still have a high hentai-ratio and essential pron-scenes. Why he's so good, I explained here: t5395.15
We also shouldn't forget some of his older games under his real name: v1130 v1131 (brilliant blackmail simulations) (I wrote something about them here: t5229.7)

I'm also a fan of Banya Izumi:
MinDead BlooD: v1060 (my all time favorite nukige. every single hentai scene in this game is perfectly executed on every level (writing, art, music, voice acting))
Extravaganza: v324 (and all his other games under the Black Cyc label)
Mugen Renkan: v8311 (this game illustrates perfectly why it's important for porn scenes to have a good build-up and well-developed characters)
I especially like how he can describe a woman defiled and humiliated as still something beautiful and fascinating because the narrative never loses the necessary respect for the characters.

Some other great, well-written and unique nukige in my opinion:
Yabai!: v12130 (this I how you make a revenge nukige. breaking a slut was never this satisfying. also, the comments-feature is just brilliant.)
Mugen Kairou 1 and 2: v1333 v1458 (probably the best sophisticated nukige ever made. The writing is extremely deep and multi-layered.)
Princess Sacrifice: v13987 (best written sluttification of an innocent little girl, I have read)
Pigeon Blood: v752 (in my opinion without a doubt the best "slave training" simulation and also the best BDSM game out there. If you really like SM (not only on a superficial level), this is the fucking holy grail. This writer knew what he was writing about.)

If we speak only of English translated nukiges, I found the hentai scenes in Marunomi to be well written.
On a side-note: Saya no Uta has in my opinion the best-written and well-integrated highly erotically hentai scenes in any English available visual novel. But of course, it's not a nukige.
#9 by overmage
2014-09-28 at 16:41
Is it elitism if I want my visual NOVEL to have good writing?

^this nigga

idk brah, I tend to consider my visual NOVELs to be things like MLA and sharin. I read those for the story. I don't read Asagi for the story, the plot is secondary to the porn.

though at the end of the day you are still jerking off to chinese girl cartoons, at least you're doing it to NOVELS with tightly-woven intricate plotting eh. A pox on those poor fools, how DARE they get off what I deem inferior! How DARE they not demand NOVELS for their fap material! How DARE their tastes differ from my superior self! The outrage! :^)

edit: I don't care that you want good writing in your fap material, but why talk shit about those who don't? how about you fap to what you like and we fap to what we like and we can all be at peace.Last modified on 2014-09-28 at 17:54
#10 by gabezhul
2014-09-28 at 16:57
@Overmage: Please calm down, will you? You accuse Tyr of "policing others' decisions", but the only confrontational person in this discussion is you. Please go out, get yourself a nice cup of coffee/tea/whatever and just cool your head a little, okay?
#11 by overmage
2014-09-28 at 16:58
I never denied being confrontational, but I don't try telling others what they should or should not care about in their "erotic prose" i.e. post #3. I think you missed that key distinction there.

Therefore I fail to see how he is not policing others' decisions, and in that same vein fail to see how I am policing anyone's decisions. Just calling him out for the elitist pretentious prick he is. If you disagree, feel free to explain how I am policing anything. I don't begrudge anyone their choices, I just think it's hilarious (in a sad way) that someone has to try to assert superiority in this most assed of fields by putting others down. "I don't understand why other people can like masturbating to something so I shall assert that it is due to its objective inferiority to my own refined tastes"Last modified on 2014-09-28 at 17:09
#12 by gabezhul
2014-09-28 at 17:09
All I see is him stating an opinion. If he considers Black Lilith nukiges trash, let him. You say he is an elitist, and he might be, but it is his damn business. I just don't see how him preferring what he considers good writing quality could in any way impact you, and as far as disagreeing with him goes, you already did that. At this point you two are just devolving into a simple squabble.

Also, it's not like he is wrong to be honest. People *generally* really don't care about "erotic prose" in their nukiges. Case in point, your actual rebuttal. If he cares, again, it's his call. You could argue that there was some value judgment in #3 beside the raw opinion, but I don't see how that can be construed to trying to policy anything...
#13 by overmage
2014-09-28 at 17:11
Also, it's not like he is wrong either. People generally really don't care about "erotic prose" in their nukiges.

Uh, are we reading the same thing here? That is actually my point, that people don't care about "erotic prose" in their nukiges. His point is that there is something wrong with that, that people SHOULD "care about good erotic prose describing good erotic situation".

You could argue that there was some value judgment in #3 beside the raw opinion

Again: are we reading the same thing? The entire post is nothing but a passive-aggressive stab, especially aimed at OP with the "animated" bit. Yes, he cares. Yes, it's his call. Why does he have to care what others think, then? Let us like our shitty ahegaos in peace. If he "never understood why people hype Black Lilith", maybe it's just not his thing?Last modified on 2014-09-28 at 17:18
#14 by gabezhul
2014-09-28 at 17:19
You said the Asagi series is one of the better fetish nukiges. He said that they are not, because he puts more emphasis on "erotic prose" or whatever.

He was the one who first claimed that people generally don't care about prose, something that you apparently agree with. What you apparently don't agree with is whether or not said prose is necessary for a good nukige. That, I think, is a nice topic to discuss.

However, I still don't see how his posts in any way try to tell people how they should enjoy said nukiges beyond simple personal opinions, and thus I still find your reaction completely overblown. Please get that coffee/tea/milk/whatever and chill out for a while, okay?

<edit>: So, according to you, the best way to react to what you perceive as passive-aggressiveness is overt aggressiveness?
#15 by overmage
2014-09-28 at 17:20
You said the Asagi series is one of the better fetish nukiges. He said that they are not, because he puts more emphasis on "erotic prose" or whatever.

We are not reading the same post then.

So, according to you, the best way to react to what you perceive as passive-aggressiveness is overt aggressiveness?

OP: "the best part is, it's ANIMATED"

his reply: "they only care about shiny and pretty ANIMATED ahegaos and over-the-top RETARDED dirty talk in their porn fest."

This is as far as I'm willing to explain it one last time, if you still don't get it I give up.

edit: the best way to react to a "muh superior tastes" guy is always overt aggressiveness.Last modified on 2014-09-28 at 17:26
#16 by gabezhul
2014-09-28 at 17:25
You
Asagi has always been one of the better fetish nukige series out there.

Tyr
Maybe, if you consider only English translated nukige. If you compare the game to all the actually good fetish nukige out there, it's simply trash like every other game from Black Lilith too. Entertaining trash, I'll give you that, but nevertheless trash.
I never understood why people hype Black Lilith so much ... or wait, I exactly know why! Because people don't care about good erotic prose describing good erotic situation, they only care about shiny and pretty animated ahegaos and over-the-top retarded dirty talk in their porn fest.

Are you arguing that this exchange is passive aggressive and not at all just personal opinion but trying to policy other people, but this:

Tyr
Is it elitism if I want my visual NOVEL to have good writing?
You
though at the end of the day you are still jerking off to chinese girl cartoons, at least you're doing it to NOVELS with tightly-woven intricate plotting eh. A pox on those poor fools, how DARE they get off what I deem inferior! How DARE they not demand NOVELS for their fap material! How DARE their tastes differ from my superior self! The outrage! :^)

Is perfectly okay, even though it is a straw-man based on your own interpretation of reading between the lines filled with personal attacks?Last modified on 2014-09-28 at 17:28
#17 by overmage
2014-09-28 at 17:27
okay, I said I wasn't going to explain it further, but let me make it a bit more obvious so you can get it.

The second part of Tyr's original reply is not aimed at me, it is aimed at OP. That is where the barb comes from. Get it now?

Are you arguing that this exchange is passive aggressive and not at all just personal opinion but trying to policy other people, but this:

Tyr
Is it elitism if I want my visual NOVEL to have good writing?
You
though at the end of the day you are still jerking off to chinese girl cartoons, at least you're doing it to NOVELS with tightly-woven intricate plotting eh. A pox on those poor fools, how DARE they get off what I deem inferior! How DARE they not demand NOVELS for their fap material! How DARE their tastes differ from my superior self! The outrage! :^)

Is perfectly okay?

Is it okay or not? That's not up to me to decide (different things are okay to different people). But it's not "policing" in any sense of the word, because I'm just being sarcastic/rude.

it is a straw-man based on your own interpretation of reading between the lines filled with personal attacks?

The personal attack is completely intentional. :xLast modified on 2014-09-28 at 17:31
#18 by gabezhul
2014-09-28 at 17:28
Well, it *IS* Flare, so I cannot really find fault in that either...

[Edit]: I am not complaining because you are policing, I am complaining because you are unecessarily sarcastic and rude. At least we agree on that. :P
#19 by overmage
2014-09-28 at 17:31
I am not complaining because you are policing, I am complaining because you are sarcastic and rude. At least we agree on that. :P

Fair enough. :x (I'll go have that tea now)Last modified on 2014-09-28 at 17:32
#20 by pabloc
2014-09-28 at 18:11
@8
You have mixed quite a few non-nukiges there (Black Cyc stuff, Princess Sacrifice and Marunomi from those that I know) - of course those have more complex storylines, better characterization and superior writing than your average porn-oriented eroge. That's one of the reasons why they are NOT labelled as nukiges to begin with.

Not that I'd say that entirely H-oriented titles can't be decently written. There are quite a few pornfests that don't entirely neglect story and characterization (some titles from Valkyria, Cyclet, Magical Girl, Atelier Sakura).

@"Writing in nukiges" topic
My main problem with Asagi, many other Black Lilith titles, and plenty of nukiges in general, is the LACK of actual dark themes (rape, mindbreak, etc.), even though the title was dressed up as dark and hardcore. All I see there is a total slut getting banged by generic fat dudes (sometimes green-skinned) and enjoying every second of it. In many such nukiges, "mindbreak" looks like this: heroine gets raped (1 scene), instantly turns into a whore and starts enjoying it (20 scenes with 10 orgasms per minute, obligatory ahegao, etc.). Now, I came here to see suffering, humiliation, gradual corruption, hopelessness and such, not pretty much consensual stuff that's about as dull as vanilla scenes in your average, uninspired moege...

For any darker stuff to really work, some foundation is absolutely essential. Without at least basic story and characterization, rape, NTR, mindbreak, etc. are in name only. And wrong characterization can completely destroy the scene. There's no impact in breaking someone who was a whore to begin with. When the protagonist is an annoying retard, you are rooting for villains to NTR his girlfriend, which kinda defeats the purpose of NTR. And so on.
Those few specific fetishes highly rely on various psychological aspects (of both characters and the reader) and simply can't be done well with pictures alone (any good NTR picture-only sets out there?). That's why writing is quite vital even in nukiges, especially darker ones. Not necessarily good writing mind you - just good enough.

But hey, to each his own. I find such pseudo-dark hentai boring, but that's just my opinion. There's obviously nothing wrong with fapping to that (those animated scenes in Asagi would have been quite nice if the girls and art in general weren't such a huge turn-offs for me).
#21 by tyr
2014-09-28 at 19:32
Well, that escalated quickly.

I just want to correct some things.

Firstly, I didn't intend to attack flare. In fact, we had some nice discussions the last days about nukige, porn writing and the art of rape lol. (t2156, t2180)
No reason for me to attack him.

I didn't mean anyone specifically. I meant the audience in general. You know, those guys who wanted Mangagamer to translate Black Lilith games and now are complaining that the Black Lilith games Mangagamer is translating are so bad lol.

Secondly, I never said that trashy nukige didn't have some value. Actually, just the other day I said "Everyone should fap how he likes. " (t2156.15)
But I think it's kind of like with bad movies. We like to watch bad movies because they're so bad and it's entertaining because of it. It's the same with Asagi. Like I said: "Entertaining trash, I'll give you that" (t5784.3)

If you want to call me an elitist, I'm fine with that. But I'm not on this board just to post "I like this vn.", "I don't like this vn." or "I fapped so hard to this ahegao."
I want to have in-depth discussion about my favorite hobby. Discussing art, music, and of course writing. Even if it's a nukige. Or especially because it's a nukige. The art of erotic writing is a very fascinating topic, I think.

(Funfact: I like ahegaos and I also like animated scenes. Why shouldn't I? But you know what; I like my animated silly face even more, if it's happening in an arousing and well-written situation. I'm such an elitist.)

What you apparently don't agree with is whether or not said prose is necessary for a good nukige. That, I think, is a nice topic to discuss.
We kind of discussed this last week in the first topic I just linked.

You have mixed quite a few non-nukiges there (Black Cyc stuff, Princess Sacrifice and Marunomi from those that I know) - of course those have more complex storylines, better characterization and superior writing than your average porn-oriented eroge. That's one of the reasons why they are NOT labeled as nukiges to begin with.
Well, I think it's dependent on how you want to define nukige. If it's really JUST pron, I think every well-written nukige wouldn't be a nukige anymore, would it?
With that said, I think every game I linked can be played as a nukige, if one wants to play it like this (which is perfectly fine because the h-scenes are so well-written). Even the Black Cyc games. MinDeaD BlooD is definitely a nukige as long as you don't trigger one of the three main routes where the genre shift happens. And the fourth route in the fandisc IS a nukige-route. Extravaganza also offers you a continuous stream of something to fap.
For Princess Sacrifice, I once played it nukige-style and it was awesome! But of course, you don't have to play it this way.

I think a good nukige is like a pink movie. You can fap to it, but you can also have fun without the fapping.
#22 by pabloc
2014-09-28 at 21:26
Well, I think it's dependent on how you want to define nukige.
Err, no - nukiges are already defined (as eroge that put main focus on sexual content). They still can have decently written storylines, but those should be only used as (good) excuses for sex. In the end, their only purpose is providing fap material.

From what I have seen, Black Cyc titles are all quite heavily focused on the story. They just happen to have plenty of hardcore sex scenes alongside the plot. Princess Sacrifice can offer a constant stream of rape, but even then it remains at least equally focused on gameplay (that features sex as it's element) and story (that doesn't disappear anywhere, even when you play whore-style). Plus, you can avoid almost all H-scenes, and that won't defeat the purpose of the game (would be a bit of a waste though, those scenes are incredibly faptastic indeed). v4767 is another good example - it's pretty much 90% sex, but all those scenes serve a completely purpose than providing fap material.

On the other hand, v10636 has a very interesting storyline (personally, I found it more entertaining than the H). But, it's still just a damn good excuse for sex, not the main point of the entire VN. Titles from the SonoHana series would kinda work as romantic comedies even if you cut out all H-scenes, but still, their main focus is showing girls banging each other. Story only provides nice background for sex, that's all.

The main point of that whole differentiation between nukiges and not-entirely-ero-oriented-titles-with-high-sexual-content was to separate eroge that provides only fap material and those that offer both that and a decent story. Precisely because some elitists like their porn spiced up with plot. :P
Sure, the differences can be kinda vague sometimes, but generally when it's possible to play/read something as a non-nukige, it's safe to assume it's not a nukige to begin with. :P
#23 by tyr
2014-09-28 at 21:45
I think your arguments are highly subjective and the line your drawing is quite arbitrary.
I know someone who played v10636 for the story. And I also know someone who played all the Black Cyc games I mentioned just to fap to them.

In the end this means every really good eroge is not a nukige, because nukige implies that it's "just" pron material. Like I said: "Every well-written nukige wouldn't be a nukige anymore, would it?"
Because "well-written" means it got additional value.

I get the feeling the more we talk about good writing in an eroge, the more we should try to omit the "nukige"-classification and just discuss "erotic fiction".
#24 by pabloc
2014-09-28 at 22:47
I think your arguments are highly subjective and the line your drawing is quite arbitrary.
Well yes, this classification is quite subjective. But, while there are some borderline titles, it actually works just fine most of the time.
Also, how or why someone plays/reads something is completely irrelevant. Somebody can read moeges solely for H, does that magically turn them into nukiges? No. And I have read v10636 mainly for the story myself, but it's still a nukige in my eyes (although rather borderline one).
because nukige implies that it's "just" pron material
Umm... Yes? That's kinda, you know, their definition. Literally - "masturbation games". When they offer a storyline that's something more than just an excuse for sex, those are no longer merely "fap games". Like I said, that's the entire point of differentiating between those and story-oriented titles with crapton of H. The former are pure fap material, while the latter have more to offer.

And like I said, that doesn't automatically mean nukiges must have poor writing. Their writing serves a different purpose (provides foundations for the sex-scenes), but that doesn't make it completely insignificant.

But yeah, we can omit the nukige-or-not classification and just talk about VNs with high sexual content in general.
#25 by rusanon
2014-09-29 at 00:44
Yes? That's kinda, you know, their definition. Literally - "masturbation games". When they offer a storyline that's something more than just an excuse for sex, those are no longer merely "fap games".
No. "Game for fapping" doesn't exclude story or writing. It defines some qualities game has, not some qualities it lacks.
All games you tried to label as "non-nukige" here have more text in h-scenes than in non-h parts, thats obviously as nukige as it can be. Story is just an extra that happened to be there.

By the way, EGS clearly labels such games as nukige: link "18禁等 18禁/抜きゲー/陵辱もの "; link "18禁等 18禁/抜きゲー/和姦もの" and so on.Last modified on 2014-09-29 at 01:59

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