Staff & Seiyuu Database Testing

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#76 by sidvanhalen
2015-01-04 at 04:12
< report >Great News. Congrats on the progress.
#77 by silence
2015-01-06 at 15:03
< report >"Import cast" button doesn't work. Are you still coding it?Last modified on 2015-01-06 at 15:03
#78 by wakaranai
2015-01-06 at 15:59
< report >works fine for me. what are you expecting it to do?
#79 by silence
2015-01-06 at 18:36
< report >My apologies. Just figured out how it works.
Another question. If the character is voiced by different VAs and presented in a different VNs, then which VN will be chosen for the import? Is there some kind of hierarchy between Sequel/Side story/Fandisc/Shares characters, etc?
#80 by wakaranai
2015-01-06 at 19:14
< report >nah it's random ^_^ it's a pain to program such priorities into a single database query.
#81 by PabloC
2015-01-06 at 23:40
< report >Damn, such an important feature is being implemented and I'm far too busy to help out. :(

I only skimmed through the thread, so sorry if it was mentioned already, but I'd suggest splitting scenario writers into 2 categories: main-writer and sub-writer(s). That's how EGS handles things if I remember right.

Other than that, thanks for your hard work. ^^
#82 by silence
2015-01-07 at 04:59
< report >#80 Well, it's not so important, anyway ))
How long are you planning to keep beta testing?
#83 by wakaranai
2015-01-07 at 08:41
< report >it's not like i'm in charge. answering your question, as long as yorhel finds it suitable for live deployment.
#84 by overmage
2015-01-07 at 14:03
< report >wow, great work.
#85 by desann
2015-01-09 at 09:35
< report >What if there will be two staff entries for one person? For example, link and link is the same seiyu added with different names. Since Mizuhashi Kaori (and many other seiyus) has many aliases, it's possible that someone will add new entry without checking for other aliases. Is there any way to merge or link those entries or it should be done by hand?

Also, in link there are some duplicate aliases. Is it a bug or someone just added the same alias two times? May be it's better to check existing aliases for duplicates on adding new one?Last modified on 2015-01-09 at 09:38
#86 by takata
2015-01-09 at 10:00
< report >Wonder how useful this site will be at eliminating the alias duplicates: (link)

I guess users will simply have to research to check that the seiyuu they're adding isn't already in the database under another name.
#87 by wakaranai
2015-01-09 at 10:55
< report >duplicates are supposed to be handled the same way they handled for characters, producers and releases. t2108
#88 by silence
2015-01-11 at 12:44
< report >Yorhel-sama, where are you? Could you say something?
We are already excited and want to break away from the chains :D
#89 by usagi
2015-01-12 at 00:12
< report >Why I can't add staff for Saya No Uta?
#90 by dk382
2015-01-12 at 03:17
< report >Because it's locked, I'm guessing. We're probably going to have to unlock a lot of entries once this goes live.
#91 by yorhel
2015-01-12 at 08:43
< report >Ugh sorry for my recent inactivity. It's hard to find time. :(

The staff database is kinda ready now and only needs some finishing touches. I hope to get to that soon(tm), but I can't promise anything. Well I can promise that we'll be seeing this stuff live before 2016 for sure.

I'm not entirely sure whether to make the staff editing stuff moderators-only or let everyone edit at launch. I'm afraid we might have to revert/modify a lot of entries while the guidelines aren't finished yet, and may be seeing cases that need special attention.Last modified on 2015-01-12 at 08:43
#92 by wakaranai
2015-01-12 at 14:02
< report >i think to avoid excessive duplicate/inaccurate entries at the start it's better to limit staff entries editing for a while. VN credits/cast edits still would be accessible to everyone.
#93 by traumatizer
2015-01-12 at 17:29
< report >Noticed this "bug" while editing (and being an idiot for editin' too much, thinking it all would transport here + fucking around cuz beta versions are always fun), that if a visual novel has damn too many characters (like Majikoi) and you try to add cast for the game, it won't show/let you scroll down through all the characters, as if there was a limit to how many characters it can show at once.
Well, the picture below probably explains it better than I can with my limited english.

linkLast modified on 2015-01-12 at 17:29
#94 by kelpie
2015-01-12 at 22:54
< report >I tried it out, and it seems pretty good. I'm looking forward to the database getting filled out. Thanks, wakaranai, for your work.

It seems to me that we ought to have a list of (Japanese) role names and what they correspond to either in the FAQ (link) or, perhaps better, on the edit page itself. A simple two-column table would be perfect. For the major roles, these should be pretty standardized, I think, so it wouldn't have to be large. With that in place, even a clueless newbie could go to a VN's homepage, click 'spec', and fill in some useful data.
#95 by myopius
2015-01-12 at 23:07
< report >Random thoughts:

-- Main versus sub writer

As #81 said, main and sub writer are fairly common in VNs. All of Eushully's games distinguish between them. This arrangement seems really common, though not all studios make it clear in the credits (interviews and tweets are often elucidating). For example, Jackson was just a sub writer for Tsuriotsu, which is worth noting since Jackson is famously talented yet surprisingly he wasn't (directly) responsible for Tsuriotsu's success, and now it seems Tsuriotsu 2 is doing fine without him. Uchikoshi was the main writer for Never7 and Ever17, but a sub writer for Remember11; although Nakazawa was involved in all three, the distinction between main and sub would explain why the mood of Remember11 resembles I/O more than Never7/Ever17/Uchikoshi's Zero Escape series which I'd describe as having more of a "group of friends"-type character dynamic.

That said, I'm not sure that specifying main and sub writer (in addition to just plain writer) would have a positive effect on the database. It's an issue of nomenclature. If a VN has only one writer, should we bother to call that writer the "main" writer? What if there's two and they each wrote half the routes? EGS handles this by listing writers as "main" by default, so that label is usually inaccurate or irrelevant (7 writers, all main? suuure). The way for main versus sub writer to make sense would probably be to have it such that any VN with at least 1 main/sub writer must have at least 1 sub/main writer (i.e. the opposite) and no plain writers, but how easy is that to enforce? Although maybe I'm just overthinking all this and a little ambiguity shouldn't be such a big deal. But the point I'm trying to make is that if you have a drop-down menu with "writer" "main writer" "sub writer", people will be tempted to pick "main writer" when they should just pick writer.

I do think it would be nice to have some kind of standardized way of putting in the notes "Main writer" to make it easier to see at a glance, but maybe that's just me feeling selfish/lazy.

-- Scenario writer versus script writer

#66/#70 suggested that scenario is a term more appropriate than script, because script has a different meaning in VN production. I'd like to second this.

If VNDB wants to insulate its users from what's involved in VN production, and ignore the separate staff position of "scripting" which doesn't have much of a creative influence on the story, we can just leave it as script writer and there will be no problems, because an average person does think of script as synonymous with screenplay. But in Japanese and to an extent in the English speaking VN translation community, the "script" is the text-based information that specifies which effects, transitions, and other audiovisual elements accompany the VN's text. I often see script and scenario credited separately in doujin VNs (to the same person or different people). The credits for Baldr Sky have like a billion people under スクリプト (script). Script sizes often differ because of formatting issues, and the script contains all game-related text including the TIPs. Nakazawa was credited with writing the TIPs for Root Double, by the way. (He was director + producer + 原案 + wrote the TIPs.) But I don't think he should be credited as a writer for it, because when people think "writer for a VN" they think someone who wrote prose that's part of the story itself; I'd sooner credit him for the TIPs under "other".

tl;dr It doesn't really matter but #66 was right.

-- Guidelines

When someone gets around to making these, I think it would be a good idea to give examples of what positions should be under "other" so that people don't think of another position as a subset of an existing position. For example, if one staff member is a director, a user might consider putting in the notes that he was also a producer, instead of putting that under "other".

I might have been personally guilty of lazily listing miscellaneous positions in the notes too often, instead of putting them under "other"... But I've seen other people do it too.
#96 by wakaranai
2015-01-12 at 23:57
< report >
we ought to have a list of (Japanese) role names and what they correspond
When someone gets around to making these
someone should write a proper d16 with whatever rules we'd end up with.
yeah... i wonder when this certain someone would show up, if at all ^_^

if one staff member is a director, a user might consider putting in the notes that he was also a producer
it's a way to go, actually, and it's reflected in preliminary guidelines:
- Preferably add major staff only.
- Use "Staff" option with accompanying note for any additional minor roles.
- If someone performed several important jobs, add multiple entries with different major roles.
- Don't add a person as "Staff" if he/she is already credited with some of the major roles. Add note instead.
- Voice actors should be added under the "Cast" tab (available only if VN has any characters listed).
- If database doesn't contain particular name yet, add corresponding entry here, but check for aliases first.

main/subwriters -- just use notes. the downside is that all writers will be sorted by name instead of "role weight" (btw current role weight is 'writer' > 'chardesigner' > 'composer' > 'director' > 'artist' > 'singer' > 'staff').

script/scenario -- i don't have an opinion on this, all role names are translatable strings and could be changed [by admin/translator] anytime without touching a code.
#97 by rusanon
2015-01-13 at 01:00
< report >
btw current role weight is 'writer' > 'chardesigner' > 'composer' > 'director' > 'artist' > 'singer' > 'staff'
Artist's (I suppose its what you decided to call genga with coloring lumped together) position in this list is very weird, for most games in all advertisement materials and on shop pages genga come before script writers and are primary selling point, while chardesign/composer/director and so on are often omitted at all.
#98 by myopius
2015-01-13 at 01:18
< report >
it's a way to go, actually, and it's reflected in preliminary guidelines:
Oops, my mistake. I didn't notice them, thanks a lot.

Actually, it still doesn't quite make sense to me that the guideline recommends using notes under a particular role to mention potentially unrelated roles. It seems like just saves time at the possible expense of clarity. If there's already a generic "staff" role for another role when it's by itself, why not just use that one? Why not reserve the notes section for notes about that actual role (like which routes were written or which music was composed)? If someone's not interested in a particular role like composer, it seems like they'd be less likely to look in the notes for composer and see that the person was also responsible for the original concept. Well, that's just my personal impression.
#99 by wakaranai
2015-01-13 at 02:25
< report >what we really need is a staff moderator, some authority figure who would solve such [administrative] issues. i'm unwilling to delve into details like naming, wording and so forth (as well as yorhel i suppose). so until someone motivated and trustworthy enough shows up we'd have to deal with a slight mess in credits.
#100 by usagi
2015-01-20 at 23:14
< report >If we talk here about innovations - what about review tab? GD threads are not very helpful since they tends to be flooded by discussions. In review tab it would be useful to have only actual reviews to be allowed - with special comments link at down corner of each one - where discussions are permitted ^^