VNDB 2.24: Staffing The Database

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#351 by Yorhel
2022-06-04 at 14:03
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will the staff be duplicable unlike the current scheme?
Yup, the same staff can be listed with the same role in different editions, but still only once within a single edition.

if we will allow dupes, then I'm guessing that we don't need to re-add the staff from the original ed if they have the same role as the original.
Probably not, but I haven't really thought this through.

will you add more staff role category?
Yes, a few. I was thinking of going with the roles in #336.

there are VN translations which are done by the original developer themselves. so in this case, should we create a new subsection for the translation staff or just jam them in along with the original language staff?
I'd say that each translation should be an edition on its own.
#352 by myou
2022-06-05 at 03:00
< report >@t6138.349/yorhel My personal opinion is that for the case of remakes, option #1 in t6138.327 (just adding localization staff) could be better than option #2 ("editions") which you just presented an example of. Because I think the split between the original YU-NO's credits and the remake's credits doesn't feel "clean" in that example.

It seems that part of the motivation to split staff into editions was to make it easier to see staff grouped together by localization, particularly if there are multiple same-language localizations. It was assumed that this change could be extended to also affect other types of "release-based staff" like remake staff. However, it's possible that the current staff overview (not split by editions, but reliant on notes like "2017 remake") already presents the staff differences clearly enough.

It's not hard to assume that remakes are very similar to the original releases (or they would have their own VN entry, at least). So currently, I would still view the staff section as a whole, and if I wanted to use compare editions, I would skim for any credit notes that say "2017 remake" or "Original version only" and then factor that into my considerations, like, "Oh, so that one artist I like only did the art in the original version" or "Oh, so the remake has a new OP". The current staff section is sufficient for that, at least.

As a disclaimer, I haven't thought about this subject (splitting staff credits into release-related sections) much. It's very possible I'm overlooking something. And what I've said only applies to remake-related staff sections, not localization-related staff sections; I didn't see any issue with the latter.

Yes, a few. I was thinking of going with the roles in #336.
My personal belief is that it'd be counterproductive to display "graphics" credits in a location other than where they currently should be: under Staff/miscellaneous (I'm actually not sure why they are under Artist in yorhel's example). It's a largely uncreative credit. The creative role of background artists is also only truly appreciated in a minority of VNs, similar to scripters. Like coloring, their style and quality is largely associated with brands rather than individuals.

Leaving aside the 2 obvious localization roles which are what they are, the other proposed major role additions don't look problematic, aside from all the edits that will need to be make to implement them. Maybe somewhat arbitrary (that is, kumiko1 did not feel the need to explain in detail why they were picked) but fine. I stand by what I came up with in t6138.315 (at the end of the post after "With that said,") as a more comprehensive credit overhaul that also addresses a lot of existing awkwardness. As I also mentioned earlier, another option would be to not make any changes--besides those related to localization credits, which have a clear demand--if the current staff credits are not particularly problematic.Last modified on 2022-06-05 at 05:43
#353 by Ezezin
2022-06-05 at 04:36
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Ezezin did not feel the need to explain in detail why they were picked
You mean what I said in #337? Translator, Editor and QA are the most prominent roles added in the release notes. Currently, it's not possible to search for those roles and new staff are not added if they made a translation or localization or have a description and links to said translator social media and/or website. Translations groups appears and disappears all the time, but there are some cases where a translator works with other groups or starts their own project.
If you are talking about #311, that was just me giving some ideas if more staff roles were being added; of course I was not asking to have all of those roles, that would be silly on my part.

As I also mentioned earlier, another option would be to not make any changes--besides those related to localization credits
This is, more or less, the reason of what I said in #337. If we try to decide on what to add and what not, we would not go anywhere; that's why I suggested to start with Translator, Editor and QA first while making a proposal for translations that could also work with different versions too (remakes, remaster, console editions, etc.).
If, somehow, we can't make the different official versions work with the current proposal (I really doubt this will be the case unless a nasty bug appears) or every user thinks that all official staff should be kept in a single section, we can always keep the separation as something exclusive to translations/localizations until it's fixed. It shouldn't be a big problem, just a tweak of the guidelines or a reminder in the edit form.

Speaking of guidelines, to answer #350 I'm taking notes of everything that was said thus far. I will post a first draft when Yorhel presents the finished example, but so far it's mostly in line to what Yorhel said in #351.Last modified on 2022-06-05 at 07:31
#354 by myou
2022-06-05 at 05:42
< report >@#353/Ezezin: Whoops, sorry! I somehow thought you were the name of the person who posted t6138.336, but it was kumiko1. Editing my post now.
#355 by caffeinecrisis
2022-06-06 at 08:02
< report >#349: This looks great Yorhel! I actually like it better than what I drafted.

I've been thinking a bit on how to handle the notes so that they work on mobile... might slap something together this week for fun.
#356 by Yorhel
2022-06-26 at 09:49
< report >Rather than making screencaps of the work in progress, I've decided to revive the old sandbox instance at beta.vndb.org. It's running with the WIP staff editions code so you can play around with it live.
(I haven't added any localization staff to the test database yet, but feel free to change that, the VN edit form is functional)

I've added just the three localization-related staff roles for now.

Things that need work:
- Editions aren't yet displayed on staff pages.
- There's no preferences for which staff sections to show by default, I plan to handle that similarly to the existing releases display preferences. (Or should I reuse the release preferences? hmm)
#357 by bassttark
2022-06-26 at 13:45
< report >Have you considered having the staff in another tab, just like tags and characters? With this format it will use a significant chunk of the main tab, and frankly I am usually not interested in reading the full credits of a vn.
#358 by Yorhel
2022-06-26 at 13:47
< report >Like with the releases section, there'll be an option to collapse all staff sections by default. So it will still use a bit of space, but not that much.
#359 by kumiko1
2022-06-28 at 05:38
< report >Not sure how we're supposed to try editing the test database when we can't log in, but at least the staff view on link looks pretty good.
I wonder if it would be better to have the collapse options based on language like releases rather than edition, so people who don't care about localisation staff can hide them easier rather than having to click for each release? Although maybe that's just a problem for the example page with lots of EN TLs which probably isn't true for most VNs.
#360 by NaioHoras
2022-06-28 at 06:44
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Not sure how we're supposed to try editing the test database when we can't log in
have you ever tried clicking "More Info" and opening the forbidden page where Yorhel shares his user's email and password? link
#361 by kumiko1
2022-06-28 at 10:13
< report >Alright I missed that, well the edit window looks perfect, no complaints from me.
Just need to push it to the main branch so people can start adding staff.
#362 by Yorhel
2022-08-11 at 07:04
< report >Real life got in the way when I was trying to finalize the staff editions work, time to pick that up again. Based on the feedback so far, just a little polishing of what's currently on beta.vndb.org should be enough to put it live.

@Ezzy:
Speaking of guidelines, to answer #350 I'm taking notes of everything that was said thus far. I will post a first draft when Yorhel presents the finished example, but so far it's mostly in line to what Yorhel said in #351.
It'll be nice to have some guidelines to start off when when it's live. If you have the time, can you post a draft to d20?
#363 by Ezezin
2022-08-12 at 22:13
< report >Last 3 days of winter holidays (;_;) .

Anyway, done, but it needs some fixing and discussion on some points.

As a minor suggestion: Can the different sections on the edit page be ordered the same way as the staff from the VN page when submitting the changes? This will make editing a lot more easier if we need to add or remove stuff.Last modified on 2022-08-12 at 22:52
#364 by NaioHoras
2022-08-13 at 05:44
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What this guide needs

Examples when the changes go live
Better formatting
Some discussion in some specific points
A full revision as my English is kind of broken at the moment.
Too many points. I'm sure some of them can be explained in a few sentences and others can be removed or merged if the information is reorganized.
alright then, focusing on these first.

For VN entries that don't have a single "original edition"
just being a pedant, but it should be changed to: "For VNs entry that have multiple releases of the same date for its "original edition", [...]", because the former makes me think that the VN doesn't have an original edition, by the wording.

this section
About original language:

Use "original language" for any official edition released in the same language as the "original edition" (which, in most cases, would be the first complete release or, if there isn't one, fallback to the most complete partial or trial release). For any other official release, the corresponding language should be selected.

For VNs which the original language doesn't match the language of the first complete release (for example games made in Japanese but then translated and released in English) [replace what I wrote in parenthesis with a proper link when the change goes live], the original language takes precedence, while a new section for the complete release should be created. In these cases, all staff not related to the translation should be credited under "original edition", while the translation team should be credited under the new section.
I think it can be simpler and easier understand if it were talking about Original Edition, instead of Original Language. I honestly need to read it several times until I get what it means...
original language is already covered in the title section of the guideline:
The language that the VN's script has been originally authored in should be flagged as the "main title"
so it doesn't need to be explained again, although...I guess it's not very clear and is talking about main title of the VN... but that can be clarified.

what we have not make clear is "original edition" by itself. it's literally the first section of new staff form but we don't a have clear definition of what should be counted as "Original Edition" yet. so I propose it to be changed into this:
---
About original edition

Original edition is the edition where the VN's script is originally written, which means that the language of a original edition always corresponds with what language the VN's main title is. There are VNs which the first complete release is actually a translation release (e.g. Dragonia). In this case, always treat them as a translation release and add a new staff section.

---
and now since we have original edition section, I suggest to move these points from "About official releases" to "About original edition":
For VNs with only partial releases (as it could be the case for works released in episodic format that don't have a single package with all of chapters included) [replace what I wrote in parenthesis with a proper link when the change goes live], the "original edition" is... [Need ideas].

For ongoing or cancelled projects, every staff who took part on the project should be credited under "original edition". Do not create new sections for several versions.

For VN entries that don't have a single "original edition" (for example Ever17), new sections can be created for each specific releases, but the staff who worked on all of them should still be credited under "original edition".

A new section can be created for staff who only worked on a trial or a partial release but didn't worked on the rest of the game.

now, about "About official edition" (I think we should just remove those 'about' in the title as I think it's unnecessary), this line
Do not create a new tab or add new roles if the same staff worked on every release and had the same role in each one of them. If several sections are created, only add staff who worked on specific releases or editions not related to the original one, had a different role or worked under a different name or pseudonym.
reminds me of a little oversight as I didn't think of this when I tested the feature on the beta site, but... Yorhel, I think each edition should have a short description feature, below the edition title. optionally, we should be able to sort edition manually based on how similar the edition are. the reasons is:
there is a case where the dev releases the game on several different platform on the same day have different content and staff from the original, but completely the same with each other (like console releases), but then a release is released later which based on that edition -not the original edition- with slightly different staff. in this case, the console releases can be considered as an edition and we can name it "Console Edition", alright. this time is still okay because the editions are still few, and we can interpret that the new staff is what differ the console edition from the original. but then new releases and editions like PC version of console edition, console ver of PC ver, remake, remaster, official translation, unofficial translation, add-ons and what not, come out and fill the staff section. since the current agreement is to not add staff that have the same role with the other edition, people would not know which edition a staff has-the-same-role-in if there is not some sort of clarification. is it the original edition? console edition? nani? can you imagine the chaos and confusion?
it would be confusing to not have a description or some sort of ordering. we simply add note to the staff in which edition they credited to, but we simply cannot do that now, it's also prone to edit wars as users re-add staff since they think the staff is yet to be properly credit.

also, I think there should be an indicator of what edition a staff worked on on the staff page itself. for example link seems to work on as a programmer for PS2 version of link, but as you can see that there's no edition clarifier of the staff page.

----

now moving on
For VNs with only partial releases (as it could be the case for works released in episodic format that don't have a single package with all of chapters included) [replace what I wrote in parenthesis with a proper link when the change goes live], the "original edition" is... [Need ideas]
I think we can think of them as one edition, just like we lump console releases of the same date if they have the same content and staff.

[Need discussion]: A new section can be created for composers, vocals and other producers who worked on different movies or songs between versions.
why do we need that rule specifically for those roles? can you elaborate?

examples
as for examples, maybe you can get more specific of where you want them? because I can put examples for any points on the scratchpad, but I don't think we need an example for each points, or the guidelines would be too bloated...Last modified on 2022-08-13 at 05:48
#365 by Ezezin
2022-08-14 at 00:52
< report >You made some really good points. I'm going to change some stuff tomorrow morning.

Edit:
people would not know which edition a staff has-the-same-role-in if there is not some sort of clarification.
I'm not sure I can see the problem:
- If someone worked on console releases, then we add "console edition".
- If someone worked in a remake or remaster, we add "remaster/remake edition".
- If someone worked on the remaster edition and the console edition, but not on the original release, then we credit them in both sections.
- If someone worked on a translation for both remaster and original (and had the same role), then we add "[name of individual] translations" or "remaster and original unofficial translations".
- If a group worked on a translation for a console release but for the pc version someone left or someone new was recruited, then we add "[name of group] console translation" and "[name of group] PC translation" and we credit all the people involved in each section (yes, there will be some duplicates, but I don't think this will be much of a problem).

Or am I missing something?

Yorhel, when I wrote that first draft I used the name "original edition", which is the one used in the edit form; but then I noticed that same section is named as "original release" in the VN entry. I'm guessing that's going to be fixed in the live update, but which name should I use for consistency?Last modified on 2022-08-14 at 01:12
#366 by NaioHoras
2022-08-14 at 01:38
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If someone worked on the remaster edition and the console edition, but not on the original release, then we credit them in both sections
that's the problem. you see, I'm under the impression that if a staff worked on a edition beside the original, then later worked on another edition based on that editon, they don't need to be duplicated.
but if you are saying that the no-duplicate rule only applies to edition different from the original (just like your example suggests), then that's fine with me too. but that means, if there is a new edition based on a remaster, which added an additional content with some different staff -only for that specific content-, then we need to duplicate all the previous remaster edition staff + the new staff to that new section (if no-duplicate rule applies to all sections tho, then we only need to add the new staff), which I'd like to avoid. so I want to see some more opinion before that. we can avoid that with some sorting feature and description... I think.Last modified on 2022-08-14 at 01:51
#367 by Yorhel
2022-08-14 at 05:39
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Can the different sections on the edit page be ordered the same way as the staff from the VN page when submitting the changes
Will do.

"original edition" vs "original release"
Let's stick with "original edition", I'll update the code to be more consistent here.

[..] sorting and description [..]
I think the name of the edition could be used to make the relations explicit, e.g. "PC remake (based on PS2 edition)" sounds okay as an edition.
#368 by NaioHoras
2022-08-14 at 06:04
< report >I'd like to avoid parentheses in a title as I never like them. reason? it looks ugly. and it will probably mirrored to the staff page if my suggestion implemented. this one btw:
also, I think there should be an indicator of what edition a staff worked on on the staff page itself. for example link seems to work on as a programmer for PS2 version of link, but as you can see that there's no edition clarifier of the staff page
which would look outta place.
and a note can always be used for a bunch of clarifications and unforeseen conditions we haven't think of.
#369 by Ezezin
2022-08-18 at 03:44
< report >A bit late, but I don't think a note field would be that useful. We already have staff notes and sections names can be as large as needed. If the problem is the duplicate staff, then we should be clear about how to handle those cases. I really doubt a note field will prevent duplicate staff in some entries as notes will only be visible in VN pages and not in staff pages.

Also, I don't think parentheses are much of a problem; yes, I agree that we should avoid their use if possible, but I don't have a problem with them if something needs to be clarified in a few words.

About
If there is a new edition based on a remaster, then we need to duplicate all the previous remaster edition staff + the new staff to that new section [...], which I'd like to avoid.
I'm still thinking on how to handle those cases, but so far I kinda agree with the idea of adding only the new/different staff that worked on those releases, but only on these specific scenarios. For example an artist who worked on a remaster should only be credited in the "remaster" section, while a logo designer who worked on the limited edition should only be credited in the "remaster limited edition" section.

Other possibility is creating one section for those two releases and use staff notes for the specifics. So instead of "Remaster" and "Remaster limited edition"?, we create a single section called "Remaster".Last modified on 2022-08-18 at 03:46
#370 by Lotuscale
2022-08-18 at 14:46
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while a logo designer who worked on the limited edition should only be credited in the "remaster limited edition" section
Ugh, if we stick on this, is it possible that we eventually fall into stage where we need to create edition for each single release?
#371 by NaioHoras
2022-08-18 at 15:18
< report >now come to think of it, if we duplicate staff based on new contribution, we will have reduplicate them more often, and even more since now we have allowed minor roles. I mean, different edition will probably mean new cover, marketing staff, additional music, and so on. that's not a problem before because we included it as a staff note.
this is an oversight for sure and we will need to find a way around that (unfortunately, my mind is a mess and can't really think right now. I've been really frustrated this evening since I can't seem to beat those damn Valkyries in God of War. and yes, I've only played it now).Last modified on 2022-08-18 at 15:21
#372 by Yorhel
2022-08-21 at 10:47
< report >Beta updated with latest changes. I'll prolly throw this live soon enough.

Other possibility is creating one section for those two releases and use staff notes for the specifics. So instead of "Remaster" and "Remaster limited edition"?, we create a single section called "Remaster".
Hmm, yes, I think this is the better solution. If we go with a rule that says to add a new edition for each tiny difference, we'll end up in the same situation as using releases directly. This does mean we need some guidelines, or at least a rough intuition, on what constitutes a separate edition.
#373 by Ileca
2022-08-21 at 21:21
< report >Now that we will have release specific staff, would it be possible to have a flag to mark credits as being complete? It would be helpful to prevent wasting time for editors and also tell users that nothing is missing (or that something is missing). You could even mark an edit as suspicious if someone adds new staff when it's supposed to be complete.

To be clear, you flag a staff as complete when every person in the game's end credits was linked (minus PR staff).

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