Lolicon - re-adding trait

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#1 by otakuman007
2015-02-14 at 15:36
link

It was already admitted that this trait will be useful. Just unsuitable description was problem. Here I adding new request with a simpler and better description:

Name of trait:
Lolicon

Alias:
Lolita Complex

Description:
This character is a Lolicon - a person who feels attraction towards very young girls.

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Also Shotacon variant request already waiting for approval.
link
#2 by pabloc
2015-02-14 at 18:52
Your description has identical problem as the previous one - it describes a pedophile character, NOT a lolicon.

Lolicon trait would need a description like that: "This character is attracted to pictures of fictional characters that look like underage girls." I don't remember seeing a single character like this.
Pedophile trait on the other hand might be useful. There certainly are some pedo characters out there. There's a high chance it would end up misused and applied to any character who has a H-scene with a random token loli, so it would need a suitably detailed description. I can't think of anything good atm.
#3 by otakuman007
2015-02-14 at 19:24
I don't know where you got such a description, but according to wikipedia Lolicon is "attraction to young or prepubescent girls".
See link
Same thing for Shotacon:
link
Even in the stories themselves people called "Lolicon or Shotacon" are attracted to little girls or boys. Often in sexual way.
Your description fits more to real life people, than in stories characters.
#4 by pabloc
2015-02-14 at 20:25
^ In Japan - yes. On the West - not necessarily. It IS mentioned in that Wikipedia article:
Outside Japan, lolicon is in less common usage and usually refers to the genre.
On the West, "Lolicon" has a slightly different usage than in Japan - it describes the genre and by extension, people who like lolis (2D ones, not real children). Characters in VNs obviously use this term in Japanese meaning, but applying the same meaning to traits can be problematic. Why not use the term "pedophile" for such characters?
#5 by surferdude
2015-02-14 at 20:34
^ Because "pedophile" is used to describe people who are attracted to children, regardless of gender, while "lolicon" refers only to people who like little girls, that's why.
#6 by gabezhul
2015-02-14 at 20:42
(...) while "lolicon" refers only to people who like little girls, that's why.
Not even that, taken that it is all about characters (again, characters, not people) that -look- like pre-pubescent girls, and even *that* can be stretched to the limit (case in point, the infamous "oppai loli").

At the end of the day though, "lolicon" and "pedophile" are different concepts with different narrative draws, so they should never be confused.
#7 by otakuman007
2015-02-14 at 20:48
Because there is one significant difference. When you say "pedophile" or "pedophilia" people usually imagine serious despicable criminal. Traditional "Lolicon" or "Shotacon" are usually played less seriously almost comically including cases where this characters actually commit pedophilic act. I think that this difference should not be overlooked.
#8 by surferdude
2015-02-14 at 20:59
So, having established that there IS a difference between the two terms, can the "lolicon" trait be accepted now ?
#9 by gabezhul
2015-02-14 at 21:01
The question was never about the trait itself but the description of it. Write up an accurate one and we will discuss it with Warfoki tomorrow.
#10 by sanahtlig
2015-02-14 at 21:42
Lolicon: The character has a sexual preference for lolis (VNDB definition of loli).

Pedophile: The character has a sexual preference for children. Use this tag when the character's preference is handled in a realistic manner, such that other characters would consider the preference despicable and would consider this character a criminal if he/she chose to act on this preference. Use the lolicon tag if there's no social condemnation or internal distress involved, or if the topic is a source of comedy.

For example, Kasannoin Kyoichi from Cross Days and Shiny Days would get the pedophile tag. A character obsessed with Primula from Shuffle! would get the lolicon tag. The protagonist from LO-angle would get the lolicon tag.Last modified on 2015-02-14 at 22:14
#11 by otakuman007
2015-02-15 at 00:33
^This is not bad, but not fully usable, since VNDB has no loli tag but kid tag.
I would venture a little edit and include Shotacon tag, which is also currently pending:

Lolicon: This character is sexually attracted by lolis - very young or very young-looking girls.
Use this tag when the character's preference is handled in non-serious or comedic manner and there's no social condemnation or internal distress involved. Otherwise use Pedophile tag.

Shotacon: This character is sexually attracted by shotas - very young or very young-looking boys.
Use this tag when the character's preference is handled in non-serious or comedic manner and there's no social condemnation or internal distress involved. Otherwise use Pedophile tag.

Pedophile: The character has a sexual preference for children.
Use this tag when the character's preference is handled in a realistic manner, such that other characters would consider the preference despicable and would consider this character a criminal if he/she chose to act on this preference. Otherwise use Lolicon or Shotacon tags.
#12 by sanahtlig
2015-02-15 at 01:24
There is a loli heroine tag. Loli can just refer to that, minus the heroine bit.

At least one of the heroines is a loli. She's either an underage girl or has the looks of one.

Her age matters not one bit when it comes to her classification as a loli. This is only about appearance.

As a character trait, a loli would refer to a female character with an underage appearance that is the target of sexual feelings (in eroge, they would typically be involved in at least one H-scene). That seems more useful than the kid trait, which often includes minor characters. Let's face it: when people search for loli characters in a database predominantly composed of eroge, they're typically looking for characters that have H-scenes or are otherwise sexually appealing.

Kokoro from Shiny Days would be a loli, but Kokoro from School Days would not (because she's not a target of sexual feelings in the story). In the VNDB timeline (because the character only has a single appearance in the VNDB character database), Kokoro would've not been labeled a loli when School Days released, and would've been updated with the loli tag when Shiny Days was released.Last modified on 2015-02-15 at 02:07
#13 by surferdude
2015-02-15 at 03:27
I think it would probably be a good idea to stop using the word "underage" when referring to fictional characters. It might invite unnecessary real-life arguments and nobody wants that to happen again, right ?
Use "youthful" or something.

Also, Kokoro IS a loli, period.
She just isn't a Loli Heroine in School Days because there's no route for her.
And there are loli characters in All-Ages VNs, so the sexual component does not define a loli.Last modified on 2015-02-15 at 03:48
#14 by sanahtlig
2015-02-15 at 04:16
And there are loli characters in All-Ages VNs, so the sexual component does not define a loli.
I define romantic interest as sexual in nature.

Personally, I would define a loli as a sexualized character with an underaged appearance that appeals to players with such sexual inclinations. However, defining the sexualization in terms of the game world rather than the effect on players is more objective and therefore less controversial.

As for usage of "underaged" as a descriptor, I'm simply mimicking the precedent established in the loli heroine tag. Personally, I'd probably use "childlike" instead.Last modified on 2015-02-15 at 04:36
#15 by pabloc
2015-02-15 at 09:34
Loli trait should be about appearance and nothing else - whether she is involved in H-scenes or not doesn't matter at all (Kokoro is a god example, she doesn't magically turn into a loli when she has sex, she is a loli all the time). If people want eroge with loli H, they can use loli trait and exclude Not Sexually Involved or they can just search VNs by tags. There's absolutely no point in making the loli trait completely non-intuitive. That would cause nothing but trouble.

And yeah, with all those 100 years old lolis around, "underage" could be potentially confusing. "Childlike" seems much better.

@11 Good job, those descriptions should work.
#16 by eacil
2015-02-15 at 13:06
@magusgs & @otakuman007 :
Your dichotomy between lolicon/shotacon & pedophile, children & loli/shota seems to me a little not not say totally off even if I understand what you want to do (to differentiate characters who do funny things to those who do sad things?).
In the west, a lolicon is a guy who faps on 2D characters of little girl (or who looks like) and may or may not be attracted to 3D kids. Applying that difference in VN means that the protag is masturbating on 2D loli equivalent (something like 5D loli?) in a screen inside our screen (did you see my inception?) but if he has sexual relationship with a real child (for him) or is masturbating on picture of a real child, he IS a pedophile, for the west or for the east! Here, your dichotomy between children and loli/shota makes no sense like if when the child is consenting, it's a loli but if not, it's a child...

I think that using terms like "Immoral lolicon/shotacon" or "Criminal lolicon/shotacon" against "Consensual lolicon/shotacon" is better (or "-con treated with reality" vs "-con treated unrealistically") because I don't think what interest you here is to differentiate lolitas to kids. There is also the Rapist trait if you want to point out that the guy is a criminal.Last modified on 2015-02-15 at 13:20
#17 by venomg3
2015-02-15 at 15:41
Agree with eacil on this,
very few VN' chars would be actual Loli/shotacon's by western terminology(or Eroge/manga term), the moment that the Character is actively pursuing someone, who to us is a Loli he is engaging non lolicon behavior by targeting a person who exist in his world.

Now feel free to correct me on this part as I dont really visit the traits or character tabs much in general
VNDB uses Western terminology to tag and also to apply traits,
Tags are for viewpoints from our world and describe the content we will be seeing /reading,
Traits describe the character in his world based on our views so a lolicon trait would be something like
"This Character is attracted to the fictional Characters known as Loli's. A Loli is a nonexistent female that has the looks of a child.

I think whats tripping up in this thread is that Lolicon has 2 different meanings

theres Loli/Lolicon in Eroge/Anime/Manga/Hentai/etc, the one that describes the nonexistent versions of ":) youthful :)" children
and then there's the use that describes real world attraction to children that exist, Pedophile or Pedophilia by western terms.
so a trait for pedophile would be something like

"This Character is attracted to another character who is a child, This child's age is confirmed to be under X(insert acceptable age)

to give an example of VN's that have char's that the pedophile trait could be properly applied just look at Shiritsu Sakuranbo Shougakkou who's VN's almost always contain Elementary School Student Heroine & Sex Involving Children

could also create a engages in trait for pedophilla
"this character engages in sexual acts with a character who is a child, Child characters age is confirmed to be under X"

also isnt intent better handled in Tags not traits, Ex. Char engages in rape regardless of the intent or reason behind it.Last modified on 2015-02-15 at 15:55
#18 by otakuman007
2015-02-15 at 16:38
I little don't understand why you want so much to take this trait in Western sense, when the vast majority of VN use him in Japanese sense (simply because they are Japanese origin).
In any case, one of the main points is also that unlike real pedophiles Lolicons or Shotacons are generally described as relatively harmless perverts that would never truly hurt a child. And if they have sex with them it's either consensual or played in Uke-style.
And with regard to description of what is loli/shota? I think that kid tag on VNDB is quite accurate.
#19 by venomg3
2015-02-15 at 17:03
Lolicons are not limited to harmless, there are those who enjoy Loli Rape & torture, and in darker corners even Loli Guro.

and yes i agree the kid body trait is probably accurate i just didn't want to set age to avoid whats going on in another trait topic where there is a disagreement about what constitutes young adult or adult body, those are just rough guess at what those traits could be.

as to why take it in a western sense , thats just how VNDB does things I believe, not 100 percent sure best to wait for someone official to comment on that.Last modified on 2015-02-15 at 17:07
#20 by surferdude
2015-02-15 at 17:14
^ If all the tags and traits on VNDB were taken in a western sense, then we wouldn't have traits like Hosome, Tareme, Oneesan-type Heroine, Kemonomimi Side Character etc.
#21 by venomg3
2015-02-15 at 17:18
good to know like i said dont spend much time in the traits or tag area's so was never really sure.
#22 by tyr
2015-02-15 at 17:23
unlike real pedophiles Lolicons or Shotacons are generally described as relatively harmless perverts that would never truly hurt a child
A "real" pedophile wouldn't hurt a child because he loves children.
People shouldn't confuse pedophiles with child abusers. Most child abusers aren't pedophiles anyway, they just like to torture innocent beings.
For example, the protagonist of Eien to Natta Rusuban ~Papa wa Kaeranai~ is in no way a pedophile.
#23 by otakuman007
2015-02-15 at 17:29
I personally think that the using west sense, when majority of works uses japanese sense, is nonsense. Also I personally believe that anyone who is looking for lolicon/shotacon in VN is looking lolicon/shotacon in japanese sense. Prove me if I'm wrong.
#24 by venomg3
2015-02-15 at 17:30
@22 pretty much why i choose to leave motive and intent out of my trait suggestions on the matter


@23 when i look for lolicon im not looking for it in the Japanese sense
im looking for it in the Eroge/Anime/Manga terminology, im attracted to Loli's, im not attracted to real people.

Ive always enjoyed vndb's description of Loli Heroine "Her age matters not one bit when it comes to her classification as a loli. This is only about appearance."
doesn't matter to me if there age is unknown, confirmed " :) Youthul :)" or confirmed over 18
as long as they look like a loliLast modified on 2015-02-15 at 17:50
#25 by pabloc
2015-02-15 at 17:52
Okay, after getting some sleep, those suggestions in #11 don't look so good anymore. -.-'

I can see the point in differentiating between characters that are more realistic pedophiles and those unrealistic, "harmless" ones that are played just for laughs. But in the end, both are attracted to characters that are/look underage in that particular VN's setting.

How about making one neutral trait for attraction to very young/very young-looking girls/boys, and deal with differentiation using other traits (rape-related ones for example). Or with a separate child molester trait. Anyway, I don't think we should be using the terms lolicon/shotacon for those traits. This thread shows that those are just too confusing due to their multiple interpretations.

Damn, this is giving me a headache... -.-'

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