|#1 by asaki|
2015-03-10 at 12:40
|First of all maybe I was jelaous because I can't read Japan so I was trying to nitpicking this awesome series, both Rakuen and Meikyuu. Damn, why Japan is so difficult and why they so proud of their language and not just using English. DAMN IT. Oh by the way I choose Rakuen board simply because Kajitsu has too much (47 topics) and it is more fitting to talk about trilogy in last of the trilogy|
Enough baseless rant from me. On the serious topic. First of all in Kajitsu I thought it was already complete because we know enough story for each character, except Yuuji (even though I assume that was would be easily covered by spreading his back story within heroine route (for example in Yumiko regarding the very awesome Yuuji's father or his treatment to Michiru regarding the same treatment he received from Asako)), but to be honest maybe it is not matter much and we could simply treat that as Deus Ex Machina (of course not some people will be happy with this though).
Speaking about foreshadowing about Kazuki, my though is that her role could be replaced by JB in regard to cover Yuuji's crime or to get some help in some route. Well, except for Amane bad ending, which to be honest I could said that Kazuki would be easily best posthumous character in the game, and bad end of Amane route could be easily seen as Yuuji died and Amane committed suicide. The End.
To be honest Grisaia no Kajitsu is very long, but it is actually quite nice and complete game if you ignore all of the foreshadowing about Kazuki and Yuuji past who don't revealed at least until the Meikyuu, which make some people thinking he is Gary Stu of this game. Which is bringing my nitpicking about trilogy.
I think that in the beginning Grisaia supposed to be only Kajitsu game. But of course since the production there must be some debate in regard of how novel should be. Maybe Frontwing want to be using this franchise as their cash cow just like Da Capo and Circus. And so scene with foreshadowing Kazuki is probably not in their first plan. I think it is more like Kazuki is dying and we won't bring her up again. End of story as their first plan. And maybe foreshadowing was hastily written to cover up their plan to get more money (Of course they thinking if they can get more money why don't make two games with cliffhanger instead of one in hoping that will raise trilogy sales for us).
Well to be fair I was not having any problem with that at first. But you know, when I was reading that Rakuen has Harem ending, this was enough to bang my head on the wall and the reason I started to nitpick on Rakuen. I mean why and how the heck Yuuji fuck, date, and solve all 5 very broken girl in span of one year (Okay, to be honest Yuuji is superhero(not the most convincing reason, close though), and most of their problem is in the flash back). The problem is not how long to solve the problem. The problem is that we were feeling wasted for reading Kajitsu and caring for the girls if that's mean the writer could go ahead and okay MC is just solved all the girls problem in one swoop in the unseen route and therefore waste all the good potential in Kajitsu. Therefore is is shown that maybe Kajitsu supposed as final product in the first place and for sequels Fujisaki Ryuuta fumbling in term of writing of Meikyuu and Rakuen since maybe it is not their first plan.
That's all from me. Fell free to disagree though because I know some of you like Harem route of course, while I was face palming seeing Yuuji get Harem route as canon (Don't get me wrong I accept harem route if the story of heroine is like in Kamidori or Duel Savior. I just thinking with very broken heroine in this game I think harem route is just lazy writing for the final trilogy). That's all from me and sorry for wall of text.
PS Is there anyone agree with me regarding company decision analysis regarding Kajitsu supposedly their final product (Maybe baseless assumption from me, but if you reply shut up it means that you are agree with me). Sorry once again
|#2 by realitymaker|
2015-03-10 at 23:54
|I don't understand the logic of people making the most random assumptions when they haven't even read the sequels. The sad thing is that there are several posts like this too already.|
|#3 by overkill373|
2015-03-11 at 00:45
|Pretty sure they always intended to make sequels for Kajitsu|
|#4 by asaki|
2015-03-11 at 01:17
|Okay I'm sorry just like want to tell my first impression from outsider who don't read rakuen yet. I realize that this vn of course this vn is very popular and very good to some people. Actually to be honest if not for DAMN HAREM ENDING maybe I will not throw some random baseless assumption though. Yeah once again I realize some people like harem ending of course. But maybe this is one of the most Broken Base ending in Grisaia series. If you ask me which side I take from my baseless rant it should be obvious. But if i can read Japan maybe I will give score at 7 for rakuen though imo.|
|#5 by realitymaker|
2015-03-11 at 01:31
|You have no idea how exactly the game ends, complain about it, and then you decide to score it when you haven't read it. |
This is just as bad as the person who complained about Rakuen having H-scenes of Yuuji's mother because they thought it destroyed the story; when in actuality, they didn't know that the H-scenes weren't even canonical.
I don't really care that if you like or dislike harem endings but making these assumptions is really annoying and ridiculous. The "harem ending" isn't even the main point of the sequels.
|#6 by tyr|
2015-03-11 at 03:48
This is just as bad as the person who complained about Rakuen having H-scenes of Yuuji's mother because they thought it destroyed the story; when in actuality, they didn't know that the H-scenes weren't even canonical.This is not what I said back then and whether this is canon or not wasn't relevant to the point I was trying to make, either.
...but I'm not in the mood to discuss this again. If you guys want to fap to a conveniently written harem ending while self-inserting in a Gary Stu and calling this good writing, by all means do it. I guess we just have different ideals on how a good story and good character development is supposed to be executed.Last modified on 2015-03-11 at 03:51
|#7 by realitymaker|
2015-03-11 at 04:20
|My main point still stands. Have any of you actually read any of the sequels to even criticize it? And if you have or haven't, then why are you all insisting that the "harem ending" is so crucial to the plotline?|
To use an example, it's like reading the first book of Harry Potter and then quitting the series because he beats Voldemort in the Deathly Hallows. All because it's "conveniently written" that that the main hero beats the villain in the end.
@#6 - Is Yuuji a Gary-stu character? Maybe he seems that way in Kajitsu. But you haven't even read Meikyuu or Rakuen to even know fully his history nor his character development to make that assumption. If anything, Yuuji is even more broken than the five heroines, but that's my opinion.
Going back to my previous example, it's like rejecting Harry's own character development throughout the series or claiming that Dumbledore himself is a Gary-Stu because he can do nearly everything without even reading the Deathly Hallows about his past with Grindelwald.
Seriously, the issue isn't whether or not you like or dislike harem endings or not. The issue is that people make terrible assumptions to make their ridiculous claims on a story that they haven't even read before. How can you even begin to criticize when you don't even know the full story?
|#8 by rusanon|
2015-03-11 at 05:20
|There's plenty of foreshadowing for Rakuen in Kajitsu, and its very obvious that at least Fujisaki had sequels planned out when he was writing first game.|
I can't read Japan
my first impression from outsider who don't read rakuen yet.WTF, how can you have "impression" of literary work you didn't read?
|#9 by asaki|
2015-03-11 at 06:13
|Well to be honest maybe I'm just like ranting there though, so don't trust all my statement okay? Still actually there is some way to knowing the story by searching some spoiling review (although I maybe killed if I said I love spoiler).|
The point is not harem ending though (Okay I admit I just using reason and nitpicking here) but the way of how writer handle the story. If we need as much as many hours to learn about heroine story, why I must believe that Yuuji capable to solve the heroine's problem in one of unseen route. It's just like the producer want to scream 'Buy the first game if you want to know heroine story, Sucker'. Okay once again to be fair it don't take too much time to solve all heroine problem, but still if the writer seriously want to make sequel from very beginning, they should copy some system from Sharin no Kuni (Like making Yuuji linearly solve all heroine problem and then as the prize he would like to choose which ending he should have and if you already seen all ending than you unlock special scene which indicate one year has passed on Mihama and Yuuji about to learn his dark past and his final task. I think it will make Rakuen and Meikyuu more believable and I will said that they should go with that plan if they serious from very beginning about trilogy instead make it like charage) Speaking about Sharin some said that Yuuji is Expy of Kenichi and the story is like Sharin.
Now to Yuuji past to be honest I only got it from review impression, but here's major spoiler for newbie of Grisaia. Just counter me if there is something wrong with my reasoning. WARNING: Very Major Spoiler for obvious reason
- Both of Yuuji parents apparently had some problem with their family and born very poor.
- As Kazuki born, they started to get some blessing because her ability to copy some of very expensive painting and her father obviously had it' eyes turn into yen sign and exploit her as much as possible.
- Yuuji born and his father is don't see him as something important because he is too busy to supporting his money machine (Kazuki). Of course Yuuji get his father abuse, but Kazuki always defend him.
- Fast forward to Angelic Howl, Kazuki died (of course by died I mean she was transported elsewhere and her brain is planted to some system and we know her as Thanatos in Rakuen). Yuuji's mother finally realized that she should give her love to Yuuji too and finally she embrace Yuuji as her son and apparently after Kazuki died Yuuji received more abuse from his father.
- After run away somewhere, apparently Yuuji father need money, so he chased his son, while he driving some very expensive car, and obviously as very awesome people with IQ rivaled Einstein and has very healthy mental state, the first action he did is abusing Yuuji mom. (By the way don't think I approve Yuuji father action. That was intended as sarcasm. Oh I think a good name would be Kazami ShitScumbag for Yuuji father)
- Obviously seeing Kazami ShitScumbag abuse his mother, Yuuji have none of it and finally he snapped and killed his father. By the way I would like to imagine that ShitScumbag should have been tortured for 3 days and very slowly. Yuuji may had manage to save his mother, but his mother is already very broken and she choose to follow ShitScumbag by doing suicide, because she is already tired of running away.
- I just find out that name of his father is Ryouji (ShitScumbag is enough for me) and his mother name is Satoko (remind me of trap master in Higurashi)
- With no one people he could depend to, obviously he need to get the guardian. And apparently his guardian is ShitScumbag best friend or something like that, Heath Oslo, who hobbies are cosplaying Yuuji like girl and apparently take his ass virginity (Maybe, but crossdress Yuuji look like Kazuki). And Oslo is supposed to be a terrorist, which is true.
- Oh almost forget, all the events above should be enough to break Yuuji and vulnerable to Oslo "persuasion'
- Fast forward, Oslo apparently getting found and the one who found him was Asako (By found of course is Asako raiding Oslo). Asako, remind me of Izumi Curtis from FMA, decided to take Yuuji to her wing and also introduce him to JB (His future contact). Just like Izumi, Asako showered Yuuji with what we know as Tough Love. To note, Oslo is trained Yuuji with terrorist skill, like sniping.
- As cool as Asako we got, she was dying and of course she finally died, unlike Izumi which she got better after Hohenheim arrange her organ. Then JB take responsibility as her best friend to take care of Yuuji.
- Apparently getting tired of dangerous and dirty job, Yuuji want to feel how normal school life would be. So he ask JB help to arrange his transfer to one of his acquaintance school (Forget to said that Yuuji meet with the principal Chizuru when he saved her). That school would be Mihama, duh.
- And so begin Yuuji life in Mihama and begiining Grisaia no Kajitsu.
That's all summarized of Yuuji past that I could gather. Sorry if I said some forbidden word, but that's just how angry I am to Yuuji's father.
Okay maybe Meikyuu has some merit, but still I would like to thinking that if Frontwing want to make trilogy, they could just have spreading Yuuji hint about his backstory through route in Kajitsu. The fact that the main writer is not writing all routes in Kajitsu (Fujisaki Ryuuta, only common, Amane, and Makina) may cause fumbling story in this trilogy. In fact, if Frontwing once again serious about trilogy, maybe Fujisaki Ryuuta should be main writer for all of the routes in Kajitsu instead splitting it to 4 writer.
That's all from me and sorry for Yuuji backstory if I got some of them wrong.Last modified on 2015-03-11 at 09:51
|#10 by realitymaker|
2015-03-11 at 06:53
|You'd need to put spoilers for a good majority of your post. There are some few details you missed.|
Yuuji's mother took Yuuji away to escape the abuse of his father. When he finally found them again and Yuuji killed his father, she told him that they'll be leaving again and told him to go to the station. She ended her life because she was sick of running away. When Yuuji returned because he didn't see his mother, it traumatized him to see her hanging.
Oslo took advantage of this to take Yuuji into his custody because he believed Yuuji had the same potential as Kazuki. As a result, he brainwashed and trained Yuuji as an assassin. Months later, Asako retrieved Yuuji when they raided Oslo's hideout. They weren't able to capture Oslo, however. Asako decide to take Yuuji in order to help him with his PSTD.
Asako was dying because she got wounded during the raid. As a result, when she took care of Yuuji, she also trained him and told him to read books and etc. You can see Yuuji mentioning it several times in Kajitsu. Yuuji eventually got official training and took over Asako's jobs as she became too ill to perform them. When Asako was on her deathbed, she told Yuuji that he cannot die without saving at least five other people because she knew her death would break him even more. Yuuji blamed himself for bring the deaths of the women around him. He decided to travel to follow Asako's wishes for him and eventually requested Chizuru's help to enroll into a school.
Your main complaint is that they should have put everything in one VN? Grisaia itself is already more than 50 hours long. Meikyuu and Rakuen would add 30-50 hours more. In my opinion, that's way too much content for one game. Kajitsu is mainly to introduce the heroines, Meikyuu is to explain Yuuji's and Kazuki's past, while Rakuen takes everything into a final conclusion. They were definitely planning for a sequel with all of the foreshadowing in Amane's and Makina's routes.
Your only valid point is maybe Fujisaki should've written all of the heroine's routes because he actually retconned some parts of each heroine's background in Rakuen. Though, in my opinion, it wasn't a big deal.Last modified on 2015-03-11 at 06:55
|#11 by asaki|
2015-03-11 at 07:29
|@10 Okay spoiler put.|
Thanks for some details. I only got from review and TV trope, so of course some detail missing. But it mostly correct, right?
No need for one game though. Just following Sharin step is alright for Kajitsu (Maybe there will be joke about how Yuuji can handle 5 woman at once, but that should be not an issue there). Common route could be cut few scene to make short sweet epilogue about how us will about to learn Yuuji past and his final task (Hey maybe there will be complain about cliffhanger earlier though). Once again epilogue is only unlocked if you viewed all ending (No problem, since endings is short imo). And ending is choose after you go through VERY Long read linear novel containing all of character route. Then again, maybe even if there is some merit in sequel planning, I could still be easily see that Frontwing easily discard all foreshadowing in Makina and Amane route though for sequel plan.
Yeah, Ryuuta once again should be in all of route writing. Then again, considering very long common route, it could be easily assume that he suffered burn out after he wrote 2 route (Amane and Makina, in fact if someday Frontwing reveal that that their first written route I will be not surprised). But really maybe he has some hobbies to extend scene IMO (Then again, maybe all of VN writer though). So probably he asked some help to write from his fellow writers and he supervising. Just my though IMO.
Come to think of it, maybe my complaint is not harem thing, but how lightly Yuuji effort is ignored to solve heroine problem in Meikyuu just like some amateur would be like saying 'Okay Yuuji solve all heroine problem so next we will learn about his past'. Then again, knowing the production situation it kinda make sense, maybe.
That's all from me.
|#12 by moyang|
2015-03-11 at 10:38
|I read rakuen and honestly it was shit.|
The girls will fight as soldiers fought in pacific war? We shall meet again in Yasukuni? Yuuki kills everyone in Aircraft carrier-island by himself? lol...
The only reason I gave 6 on this is penetration of Kazuki.
|#13 by renn|
2015-03-11 at 11:27
|Literally, LOLed. You call something you can't even read has a "lazy writing", autistic EOP is autistic . Yuuji is actually having a nightmare every night because he is feeling guilty for everyone he killed and he write something on his "diary" that he wanted to die. In fact, after you read Meikyuu you will realize it's impossible for Yuuji just to simply fall in love after saving one of the girls and continue having a normal life with her because he is still binded by the organization.Last modified on 2015-03-11 at 11:28|
|#14 by surferdude|
2015-03-11 at 13:25
|Asaki, seriously, improve your English for fuck's sake. Reading your posts is like trying to eat walnuts with the shell on. It hurts.|
|#15 by hyperknees91|
2015-04-27 at 02:24
|Rakuen was a pretty silly follow up if you ask me. Felt more like a hollywood movie more than anything. Which makes me wonder why he included so many dark and serious parts earlier when he was just going to conclude things like this. So over the top and so very very silly. |
I think more than anything, this guy needs to work on his villains. For all the build up Heath Oslo got, he was very underwhelming and shallow as a character. Compared to the finale Kenichi got with Houzuki, it jut felt so lifeless in comparison.
Also while not a complete gary stu, Yuuji certainly is too cool for school. He is wish fulfillment personified.Last modified on 2015-04-27 at 02:30
|#16 by lne|
2017-05-19 at 01:41
|I'm a bit late to the party but... I don't think Rakuen lived up to all the foreshadowing built up in Kajitsu at least. I completely expected Kazuki to have survived through some "mad" means. I actually considered her to be a potential villain in the great scheme of things. You know, it could have been implemented as something like taking a false step and falling on her bad side or something like that. In fact, the, uh, real deal? Heath Oslo felt tacked on and as though trying to fill in that void. I think Yuuji's "brother" (more like son according to Oslo's own words) ended up trying to salvage part of that too by getting propped up as some sort of genius gene carrier which would put him at the same level as Kazuki. However, for a character that only ever gets to be seen fighting and serving chocolate that feels very much like poor storytelling.|
Meh, I might add a few other things that jump at me later on.
|#17 by asaki|
2017-05-19 at 03:59
|@13 Not that you'll read this though, but I guess it's possible then if Yuuji committed suicide after giving birth to his children at the end of Amane's route for you. Then again, maybe they really just planned it as Kajitsu only once again and somehow Frontwing managed to get the idea of exploiting Grisaia franchise with addition of Meikyuu and Rakuen for the start, then continued with several side stories and finally Phantom Trigger thing.Last modified on 2017-05-19 at 03:59|
|#18 by sakurakoi|
2017-05-19 at 10:59
and somehow Frontwing managed to get the idea of exploiting Grisaia franchise with addition of Meikyuu and Rakuen for the start
Nah, it is fairly obvious that they still planned Meikyuu and Rakuen but it was a mere matter of whether it was possible to release them. Not only Yuuji's back-story was seemingly insufficient but it was also fairly obvious that Kazuki is...
a) alive, somehow and
b) somehow that professor in the basement plus
c) whatever happens after Amane abandoned Kazuki has yet to be told and it was made fairly obvious that Kazuki's body at least was missing
by the by, the title drop was also missing but ofc, this was not necessary~
Now, the little side stories are not really exploiting the series but the "sequel" I tbh have yet to read certainly is exploiting the name.
In any event, even though I personally am not fond of "hollywood movie"s and even though this comparison ain't wrong, "hollywood" certainly does not equal bad nor silly writing (rather bollywood is) but simply fairly high amounts of action. The four strong characters have been fairly well established even in just Kajitsu, both Sachi and even more Yuuji are very athletic, Amane is a fearsome driver and Makina a genius.
There are merely two points where one might think that one has to suspend their disbelief too much...
for one during the helicopter chase, the attacker, like in quite any story always misses which of course should not be, however given the circumstances it is fairly obvious that the pilot was ordered to disable the car so that Yuuji could be recovered
and later Yuuji survives everything albeit having about everything thrown at him, this can however be excused by the squad based CQC combat where Yuuji eliminates one wave after another while ultimately the sea water saved him by making the blood clot... well, just suspend your disbelief a little, will ya? Heck, Amane's survival scenario is much worse
in the end, albeit some many little flaws and a major black spot, I still would rank the Trilogy as one of my favorite works, this does not make me read the "sequel". And welp, I still gotta love the ultimate final ending, which the anime did not show and which I still do not know whether the "All Ages" (17+) version shows either, because that was just an awesome but also heartwarming conclusion.
You must be logged in to reply to this thread.