JAST marketing failures could doom HRPG licensing

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#26 by warfoki
2015-03-19 at 23:11
< report >Oh, we are having this discussion? Okay then.

@Tyr:
Look, I really don't want to be an ass here, but you DO sound like a bona fide hipster. I mean a game that has an admittedly bad combat system, is a monotonos and tactless (well, if you can autobattle through everything...) grindfest is awesome, but Persona is the reason for the decline of the genre? Really?

I think it's just that the trends have been changing with the technology. Nowadays streamlining and the fluidity of the gameplay is what makes a game successful for the most part. I mean, just look around: turn based strategies are only out in the mainstream with legendary series like Civilization and Heroes, nothing else. Exact same same thing with the RTS genre. Turn-based RPGs and point-and-click adventures? Only in the indie scene. And JRPGs are probably even more restrictive then those genres. There were attempts to make some changes with, say, the last few Final Fantasy games. It did not go well. Frankly, expecting JRPGs to sell well without the brand recognition of well-established series is pretty foolish.

I wouldn't say that these are dead or dying genres though. I mean with todays ever widening indie scene, Kickstarter and Steam Early Access, even long since dead genres are getting new entries. Tesla Effect is an FMV game. Legend of Grimrock is a grid based dungeon crawler. Even such absolutely outdated, pretty much dead genres can get enough of a crowd to justify new games every now and then. So I really don't think that we should bury JRPGs in general. They may have fallen out of the mainstream for the most part and don't have AAA titles regularly coming out, but that's far from being dead.

In fact the genre actually has a crapton of new entries, the problem is that the quality of these is... subpar, to say the least. I'm talking about the influx of RPG Maker games on Steam. LOT of games, but only a very few has any semblance of creativity to their name.Last modified on 2015-03-20 at 00:10
#27 by dk382
2015-03-19 at 23:26
< report >Anyone who doesn't like the same things you like are idiots who can't appreciate true art, like Agarest.

Ugghh kill me now

While I think that the JRPG is in decline, I don't actually think the quality has gone down much at all. It's more that tastes are shifting in Japan.Last modified on 2015-03-19 at 23:28
#28 by tyr
2015-03-19 at 23:43
< report >I said that Agarest isn't a game for everyone, but if you like grinding and farming then it's quite good because Agarest implements these gameplay elements fun and entertaining while the grinding in most other RPGs is boring and tedious. But like I said, you have to like grinding or else this game isn't for you.
It's perfectly fine not liking Agarest, I can understand that. But I cannot understand why you read my comment as
>Anyone who doesn't like the same things you like are idiots who can't appreciate true art, like Agarest.
because I didn't say this. On the contrary, I really understand why many people don't like the game. That's why I tried to explain some nuances most people who didn't play the game as much as I wouldn't know. Like that there is really a good concept behind the grinding (which you don't have to like of course, but it's there).

I wouldn't always sound so ignorant if you wouldn't always read my comments with an ignorant intonation in your mind. :)Last modified on 2015-03-19 at 23:52
#29 by dk382
2015-03-19 at 23:51
< report >
The genres are dying because stupid customers don't know what's good and are buying moe trash or something pretty and shiny.

It's hard to misinterpret that. Supposedly, the masses are stupid and don't know what's "good". Others not having the same idea of what is good and bad as you does not make them stupid.Last modified on 2015-03-19 at 23:52
#30 by tyr
2015-03-20 at 00:07
< report >I think that moe (at least the modern interpretation) is by definition bad. And with "bad" I mean it's something that devalues a work of art.
(That's my opinion, don't be insulted by it.)

If you want to discuss this, we should better make a new thread because this one here is derailing hard. But it's an interesting topic and I'm open to other opinions. Just because I stated mine doesn't mean that I wouldn't be interested in reading yours. I'm really not as ignorant as you think I am.
#31 by sanahtlig
2015-03-20 at 01:40
< report >I'm kind of stunned that we have such an array of opinions on what constitutes good (H-)RPG gameplay here. I thought it was pretty much universally accepted that Kamidori's gameplay system was top tier as far as H-RPGs go, with Sengoku Rance's also up there. That others seem to hold exact opposite opinions bewilders me, as these systems seem objectively good to me. I expected more...homogeneity from the small group of fans that hang out on VNDB and play H-RPGs, especially those who play them in Japanese.

It's kind of hard to pitch Seinarukana's system if no one can agree on what a good system even is.Last modified on 2015-03-20 at 09:53
#32 by encrypted12345
2015-03-20 at 03:28
< report >There will always be a few outliers.

It's usually good enough if you can get most people of a certain group agree on something even if there's a few that disagree.
#33 by overmage
2015-03-20 at 12:04
< report >>Kamidori
>controls

are you playing with a controller?? Kamidori is a turn-based game so the controls are just mouse clicks? Why would controls even factor into a game with zero active-time-battle?

Do you even *need* controls?Last modified on 2015-03-20 at 12:07
#34 by justinizhere
2015-03-20 at 14:29
< report >I find it funny JAST releases VNs with shitty gameplay then is upset when no one wants to buy said game with shitty gameplay. If they would get into VNs that are actually fun to play like Rance and Kamidori then they might see sales and not shit like Yumina which was boring to read and dull to play.

The staple JAST 4 year translations do not help eitherLast modified on 2015-03-20 at 14:41
#35 by kiru
2015-03-20 at 18:17
< report >@33:

Controls include responsiveness of your mouse cursor and actions as well. It also includes intuitiveness. Kamidori has terrible controls, because it feels that way. It's like when you play a normal game it equals driving a fast car, while when playing Kamidori it's like driving a big tank.

I mean why can't you click on your character to choose them and have to click on the portrait? That's COMPLETELY counterintuitive to anyone who ever played a strategy-game on PC. And then, once you've chosen a character getting him or her to move where you want it is also way more slugish then it should be, with the GUI seemingly having problems updating where your cursor is at. It's just so damn slugish, which ends up annoying me. Kinda like when rpgs have extreme loading times for every battle or something. It makes you need 2seconds or so more for EVERY character-action in battle. That adds up. Especially in a game with a lot of grinding.


But speaking of controllers.. Kamidori offers that as an alternative as well. Why is beyond me though. No idea how they messed that up so much. You'd think it'd be easy enough. Do it like all the s-rpgs on consoles. Unfortunately that didn't happen.
But again, I don't think Kamidori has good gameplay anyway. It has nice ideas, quite a few even, but the execution is just as horrible as the controls. Which I found sad, as I tried to like the game. I really did. Though with me disliking all the main heroines and the issues the gameplay had, it was impossible for me.
#36 by usagi
2015-03-20 at 23:21
< report >@24:
Games like Persona are exactly the reason why the genre is dying. If I wanted to play a shitty dating sim, I would play an OELVN.
Games like persona is staple of how evolution of one's genre should be done. Atlus is only company who really develop genre into better modern form while do not abandoning key features like hardcore turn-based combat. The same cannot be told about Squarenix, for example. While they tries to evolve the genre - they tries too much into casual side - and games turns into action interactive movie as result. Gust, Nippon Ichi, Namco - they are not evolving the genre at all - or doing it really slow.
I admit that Persona makes some changes in maybe too drastic way (i.e. it's more dungeon crawler instead of usual world and towns exploration). But it is million times better because of really new, modern, stylish and adult type of storytelling - than moldy tale of saving the world from great evil in medieval setting.
Since GUST gone complete moeblob with the Arland saga, the Atelier series isn't anymore what it once was. Stupid characters, no story, only otaku pandering.
It just became much more raising simulation game instead of jrpg. Raising sims are not valued for story. Main focus there are characters and their growth - and it was done really good there. Maybe it means jrpg decline here in that case - but if it means ressurection of other long dead genre - then why not? I would welcome it gladly too.Last modified on 2015-03-20 at 23:23
#37 by shadowpower
2015-03-21 at 00:30
< report >@35
I agree to an extent but controls aren't that bad, at least you can change some settings. Anyway the more picky you become with overall speed of the game the worse it becomes, I've started using cheat engine on almost every game I can so that I can play faster, sometimes I make scripts or hack so that I can avoid cerrtain annoying parts, etc.
I played Eien no Aselia - Kono Dachi no Hate de and I wish there was an option to skip battles, the gameplay isn't too interesting and it gets too repetitive.
Kamidori isn't bad as a game but the quality of the story isn't too great, it was disappointing because it has the potential to be a lot better, nevertheless I still enjoyed it.
#38 by tyr
2015-03-21 at 02:48
< report >@36:
Persona:
Persona 1 is good, Persona 2 is awesome, too. But then the series turned hipster wannabe cool and it's a shame a great series turns this way and completely forgets its roots.
I somewhat understand why many people like the new persona, it seems modern and stylish and blah. But when we look deeper, it's nothing more than an okayish dungeon crawler with a horrible dating sim attached to it. Dating sims in the early 90s were better than this, I really don't understand how people can like this limited and stiff feature. Probably the same people who think the romancing in Bioware games is good.
I also think that the concept of rewarding the socializing with gameplay elements is kinda disgusting as it turns the relationships you form somewhat shallow. Like in a bad dating sim where you don't care about the character, you're just nice to her because it unlocks a hentai scene. In my opinion, while the gameplay in an RPG should be rewarding, character interaction or the story in general should be a reward in itself.

Atelier:
I'm was not against the series turning back to economy simulation. I'm familiar with the early Atelier games and I like them. What I don't like is, how the writing in the PS3 games turned complete moeblob.
It's so obvious that GUST caters to the moe otakus. I mean, look at all those characters without personality aside from stupid character traits like "clumsy" or "airhead".
Just look at all the development they could have had but didn't get. A character has a crush on someone? Well, let's not develop it further. Our otaku customers might get upset when some character takes their waifus. -.- A character has ambitions to do something important or maybe even change the way he is? Well, let's not have him accomplish something. Maybe we want to recycle him as a cameo in a sequel, therefore he needs to stay exactly the same as the audience knows him.
It's so frustrating.
It also seems like all they were talking about in the Arland saga is how only little girls are cute and old woman are old, lol, which culminated in essentially KILLING Rorona in Atelier Meruru, a character they developed many ingame years throughout the saga. What were they thinking? Srsly, how can you do this? How can a writer have so little respect for the characters he creates?
Speaking of respect for the characters. Remember the ending scene in Atelier Ayesha where Ayesha and Nio reunite and the first thing they talk about is how big Ayesha boobies are? wtf... why did I even care about these character in the first place? -.- This is a perfect example at what a low point the writing in this series is. I mean omg I just can't believe that someone actually wrote this crap. It's so tragic-funny if you remember that GUST said beforehand that they wanted Ayesha to be an emotional and dramatic experience.

That's said, Eschatology was awesome and exactly how an Atelier game should be. Thanks to Tecmo Koei, not GUST. Characters with personality and endings which actually accomplish something. That's how it's supposed to be.

... this talking about Atelier reminds me that I have to buy Atelier Shallie sometime soon. :D
#39 by overmage
2015-03-21 at 12:51
< report >
I mean why can't you click on your character to choose them and have to click on the portrait? That's COMPLETELY counterintuitive to anyone who ever played a strategy-game on PC.
fair enough, though it's not such a big deal to me
And then, once you've chosen a character getting him or her to move where you want it is also way more slugish then it should be, with the GUI seemingly having problems updating where your cursor is at. It's just so damn slugish, which ends up annoying me. Kinda like when rpgs have extreme loading times for every battle or something. It makes you need 2seconds or so more for EVERY character-action in battle

Never experienced such issues. Are you sure it's not a problem on your end?Last modified on 2015-03-21 at 12:51
#40 by sanahtlig
2015-03-21 at 16:58
< report >A lot of games have an option to use a hardware mouse or software mouse. It sounds like you might have been using the wrong one with Kamidori, or your system just wasn't capable of handling the game without lag issues. I never had any graphics or mouse lag.
#41 by forbiddenone
2015-06-03 at 06:40
< report >Is there rape in this one?
#42 by lisandr
2015-06-03 at 07:09
< report >No. Only sweet love.Last modified on 2015-06-03 at 07:10
#43 by alexlung
2016-04-24 at 21:19
< report >its their fault really. interesting read.

they should always include alternate patch to cover contents missing in all age version. releasing it on steam is also very wise.

yumina imo was really boring and repetitive. if they want people to buy proper rpg they should really go for stuff like Daiteikoku, madou kokaku, sengoku rance, Kamidori , Soukoku no Arterial etc.

the only worth playing from JAST was this and the prequel really

eushully imo makes the best visual novel rpg games. shame none of any western company has any interest in it.
#44 by sanahtlig
2016-04-24 at 21:45
< report >The problem with Eushully games is lack of interest on the JP side.
#45 by trademark2
2016-04-25 at 01:58
< report >As a shota/loli fan, I do not really care about this. JAST censored some of the best content in games they localized, it is deserved that they fail. The best target market is japanese people, because they arent offended by everything like stupid people in the west are(Feminists, SJW, ect). Furthermore, people in the west like all ages games and nukige, which are (ussually) not worth the time to play. All in all, this might lead to less eroges, but higher quality ones(at least from my perspective, since they wont be worried about censoring for the west)

VNs will continue to be made. Some people are acting like the medium is dying. It might fade a little, but it won't die. There will still be VNs coming out, and the ones that come out will be paid more attention to because there will be less VNs in total.

If they take an eroge with a good story and leave out the eroge content to make an all ages version ONLY, then fuck them. Glad to see them go if thats what theyre going to do.Last modified on 2016-04-25 at 02:07
#46 by sanahtlig
2016-04-25 at 03:08
< report >The Steam version is coming out in months after the uncensored adult release though...

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