|#51 by eacil|
2016-11-16 at 22:12
|Sociopathy is not about people seeing monsters... human norms apply to human to human. You, pabloc, can't have empathy toward a disgusting abomination that reeks danger, because empathy can't apply like you don't have identity relation with such entities. If he has destructive behavior, it's because of the situation, what he wasn't in any way before the change. You are basically saying that someone who is thrown into a survival situation is a psychopath because he survives to the context doing bad things. Moreover, Saya is instilling her idea inside his head and manipulate him as a good yandere.|
Your way of thinking works only if you ignore his standpoint and even here he is more of a psychotic than a sociopath. You are not one because you hear voices telling you to kill people. He is losing contact with the reality but even here it's not true because we know that it is real, it's not delusion or then blindness is a delusion. You are being hypocritical saying "has no problems with eating human meat". See, you don't consider his standpoint. How is that even possible you did not identify to Fuminori you lolicon?
Your sociopathy starts to become valid only when Tsukuba You got his human appearance back. Still, she has brain damages, he must still doubt her "humanity" (does this concept makes sense at this point?) and he can run away from the pressure by being sadistic with her. For a sociopath, he is quite able of expressing feelings towards Saya... Here you have two different sets of balances and one has everything to do with a paradigm disruption which make me think sociopathy can't apply when the concept of humanity and society is warped to this extent. It's a fictional way of justifying psychopathy like I don't remember what work was justifying schizophrenia by making paranoid delirium as the expression of an underlying reality but, no, you are ignoring the facts and keep saying this medium is a wacko when the whole novel is telling you ghosts exist.
Why you forgot is that Fuminori becomes like this when Saya is raped by Suzumi, which makes crystal clear to him that it's a matter of life and death and that those monsters are the real deal (at this point he still lacks information). At this point, the first choice is about acceptation of this reality or not. If you turn back, hop, no more magical sociopathy while still a broken mind.
Well, you are saying he _became_ a sociopath when warfoki said he was one before Saya and is the reason why he seshk with her, which is the reason I stepped in. I am not refuting your it's a story about Fuminori abandoning his humanity and turning into a monster, and about Saya becoming more human-like than him, despite being an actual monster, I am just saying that reducing the intentions to a "he has moral compass", "he is a murderous sociopath" is too simple-minded.
|#52 by warfoki|
2016-11-16 at 22:47
|No, I don't say that he was one before the brain damage. He became one afterwards. which is basically the entire story, so he IS a sociopath.|
As for him not being a sociopath... Look up pretty much any definition of "sociopath" and you'll see that he fits the description completely. Yes, he has other mental issues beyond that, but that doesn't make him any less of a sociopath.
|#53 by loctar87|
2016-11-17 at 01:41
|No, he's not a sociopath. Just look at how he treats Saya. He loves her, completely and truly, which is not something sociopaths are capable of.|
You could even say that the point of the story is that he's not a sociopath, despite how it appeared to others. The point the game is trying to make is that how much we empathize with others is determined almost entirely by our perspective. He had empathy. He just couldn't see others as human anymore, so empathy no longer applied.Last modified on 2016-11-17 at 01:43
|#54 by pabloc|
2016-11-17 at 15:29
|Fuminori is pretty much a textbook example of acquired sociopathy caused by brain damage.|
He is NOT in a survival situation. He is dealing with perfectly normal humans that only he perceives as monsters (the only real monster is Saya). And he knows it. He's well aware that eldritch abominations that he sees are in fact his friends, he suspects that Says is not a human, he knows that he's eating human meat - he's perfectly aware of everything and stays more or less rational all the time. Which is one of the main factors that differentiate psychopathy form such disorders as schizophrenia (where the patient can't tell what is real).
Saya isn't manipulating Fuminori in any way. She's not a yandere at all - she's more like deredere (in her own way).
Fuminors's love is true, but warped nonetheless. Remember that Saya isn't a human (and he knows it), and that she looks like a child (banging children is NOT normal by any stretch of the definition, not in a serious VN at least). Also, one of the main reasons why he fell in love with her is that she was the only being that he didn't perceive as a monster. At first he was just clinging to her to preserve the last bits of his sanity. His love has very selfish roots (and that fits the definition of psychopatchy).
Also, despite the feelings he developed for Saya, he doesn't really mind banging a sex-slave. Surprise - promiscuity is among the many traits of psychopaths. :P
Again, there are very good reasons why he became like this and the reader can sympathize with him, but that doesn't change what he turned into.Last modified on 2016-11-17 at 15:29
|#55 by tyr|
2016-11-17 at 21:29
|Having a pet is NOT promiscuity.|
Only when Saya established the social hierarchy between her, Fuminori and You, meaning that Saya and Fuminori don't look at her as an equal being but instead "love" her as they would love an animal pet, Fuminori agrees to it.
As you can see, Fuminori's ethics and morals are still intact.
|#56 by eacil|
2016-11-17 at 22:49
|Well, I have nothing more to say, our divergence in opinions is that you are denying his standpoint/context as valid. I don't think he must have empathy or is perfectly well aware of what's going on when he was more feeling like he was abducted by some Cthulhu, something screwed and now he knows what is the real nature of the world (not at all a surviving situation > what kind neighbor, this good old Suzumi). The strength of this story is to make you reinterpret the reality like any good Lovecraftian tale. It's not brain damage, it's a switch. With different paradigm, different interpretation. Here, your psychopathy has no meaning at all but if you want to mechanically check some criteria in a test, it's up to you.|
Anyway, seeing how you deny Fuminori's love when the guy still loves her when he turns back to "normal", you don't deserve Saya.
(Saya not yandere? Hmm, she was not really kind with Tsukuba. Accepting a rival in her couple was only possible if said rival is used as a meathole. Look at the DSM, it's pretty typical in yanderite cases.)Last modified on 2016-11-17 at 23:01
|#57 by pabloc|
2016-11-18 at 00:19
Okay, when I thought about that scene and remembered it better, you do have a point. You do realize that keeping a former friend as a pet doesn't exactly support your last sentence, right? :P
you are denying his standpoint/context as valid.Are you even reading my posts?
> the plot gives very good reasons why Fuminori became like thatOf course the context is valid. He doesn't come off as a simple villain thanks to that, despite his actions.
> there are very good reasons why he became like this and the reader can sympathize with him
I don't think he must have empathy or is perfectly well aware of what's going onHe is aware that his senses are screwed up. He knows that he has to lie about his condition to avoid being turned into a test subject. He knows full well that he is talking with his friends. Yes, they look like monsters to him, but he knows those monsters aren't real. The fact that he doubts his senses is clear even in that H-scene quoted earlier.
now he knows what is the real nature of the worldExcept that due to his screwed up perception, he sees everything BUT the real nature of stuff. The world is the same as always, Fuminori just sees it in an abnormal way.
And no, this is not a "survival situation", at least not until the very end. Nobody is hunting or threatening Fuminori - his friends and the nurse suspect that something is wrong, but that's it. Normally, the neighbor wouldn't have done anything, he went insane for a very good reason.
you deny Fuminori's loveAgain - are you even reading my posts? I literally said that:
> Fuminors's love is trueSeriously, what are you talking about?
And no, Saya is not a yandere. She isn't exactly kind to any humans (save for Fuminori obviously), not just Tsukuba. "Yandere Heroine" tag got downvoted to hell for a reason...Last modified on 2016-11-18 at 00:28
|#58 by bishi-de|
2017-02-06 at 08:41
|You know, when I first played this a few years back it was mortifying. I was a freshman, 18 or 19, in college and Saya no Uta really made me uncomfortable. I'd never been so exposed to so many dark themes before. I uninstalled at the part where Yoh gets attacked by Saya. It was too much for me at that point with all that was going on in the story. |
It's kind of comical looking back on that now. I recently installed and played it again, being a fair few years older. It was just as screwed up as I remembered, but I finished every ending. Saya no Uta is a visual novel I will carry with me for the rest of my life. Logically you know it's fucked up to hell and back, but it still comes across poetically beautiful.
I don't think I can name a VN where every single ending is so impactful. Should probably go back and give it a 10 after a little more rumination.
|#59 by finalcloud|
2017-09-15 at 17:54
|I am 27M and still not sure if I can bring myself to read it... Hah! I generally roleplay a protag and do not like to do so with some of those tags on the protag for this game =/. I guess if it is Saya screwing with him and making him do stuff I can handle it. But I dont really like playing MC who is scum lolLast modified on 2017-09-15 at 18:04|
|#60 by lepainperdu|
2017-11-05 at 00:02
|I'm 18, will be 19 a few days. Female. VN newbie although I've known about the medium for a while now. Finished this about a week or two ago.|
I agree with pabloc and warfoki.
This was pretty shocking to me, and the protagonist was an absolute dick - I hated him. Like finalcloud, I tend to roleplay to an extent, and at first I sympathised with Fuminori but then he did a complete 180º (on the route I ended up choosing, anyway). Actually, I disliked almost all of the characters, even Fuminori's friends (they were one dimensional IMO, except maybe for Kouji). I concur with some that the story could've been more developed because I wanted more.
I haven't finished all the endings, just the Kouji one, so perhaps I'm missing out on a lot and my opinion might not be valid, but I don't care, I'll probably not read this again, at least not so soon - maybe in a few years. I don't think I'd be completely satisfied with the True Ending though.
I actually liked this VN despite all the things I said above, but I wouldn't be able to bring myself to give it a 10, because it's not perfect in my view.
Even though I was horrified, at the same time it was interesting to see everyone becoming mad. I guess this could happen in real life, especially due to the circumstances. Saya's backstory and Fuminori's condition were intriguing as well. Saya no Uta is incredibly nihilistic and I enjoyed that.
I command the writer for making me absolutely disgusted at everything in this game, and reminding me of what humans are capable of, especially due to a terrible condition. (lol)
Did I contradict myself there, by the way?Last modified on 2017-11-05 at 00:08
|#61 by higuchiken|
2018-01-20 at 14:47
|16 for me, it seemed like it's been so long.|
Loved almost everything about the game and can relate as to why the protagonist would go to those lengths to protect his newfound happiness. He should've cut all ties with his friends though at least that's what I'd do.
Ending was bittersweet but I enjoyed it, I'm not a fan of good endings anyways.
|#62 by katelyncapybara|
2018-07-31 at 06:21
|I a 19-year-old female now, but I played this game when I was about 13/14 years old? Maybe even younger. Damn, I can't believe it was that long ago. I highly enjoyed it, but at the time it was one of my first VNs, and even now I haven't played too many (well, I haven't FINISHED very many). |
Honestly, I was probably too young to play this game, but if I remember correctly, it didn't affect me too much. But, that's just the way some things are now.
|#63 by kpcahyadi|
2018-07-31 at 06:41
|17 by the time i read it.. well actually i read it around 3 month ago but never have the time to finish it, because the guro content is making me feel headache after read it for 3 hours straight. But regardless i enjoyed it so far..|
|#64 by hafidzvn|
2019-04-08 at 08:00
|it left a really nice impression at the point I marathon it for all route completely, read at 21 btw|
|#65 by killingspeerx|
2019-05-08 at 11:00
|I read it when I was 24 and I came here expecting a messed up story. It was messed up but not the way way I expected (like I thought it might have been more fucked up), but I did enjoy it and it is kinda depressing that there are no happy endings.|
My first ending was Koji's ending and I really felt sorry for him.
|#66 by forever-here|
2019-05-08 at 14:21
|I was 23-24 when I read this. now 33. and anyone who said this VN hasn't changed them in any way is lying.|
I've noticed recently that those who often read (as compared to watched) any medium tends to be right-leaning than left-leaning. exceptions include feminist-indoctrination high schools and brainwashing universities.
|#67 by bobjr2000|
2019-05-08 at 19:01
|#66 how is last statement even related to vn above being discussed?|
|#68 by sakurakoi|
2019-05-08 at 19:08
anyone who said this VN hasn't changed them in any way is lying.yet neither will anyone ever say in what way just about any work changed them~
Like seriously, seemingly never does anyone who claims this.
|#69 by kukiame|
2019-06-04 at 00:52
|it was 6 years ago, around 13 years old.|
"Damn this story is messed up!" was my first impression, but well it's pique my interest.
i really feel sorry for Fuminori. and then Saya...
feel empathy about their love stories....
|#70 by ffthewinner|
2019-06-27 at 00:16
|I read this when i was either 19 or 20. it was one of the first VNs i played. I consider it to be the greatest Mindf*** VN of all time.|
|#71 by netonetori|
2019-07-05 at 06:29
|I liked the story...really I did...until the NTR scene. |
Anything after that made the story seem just meh.Last modified on 2019-07-05 at 06:30
|#72 by surferdude|
2019-07-05 at 17:22
|^ Yeah, I could have done without that scene as well.|
|#73 by cyric|
2019-07-06 at 11:01
|I was around 15 so 10 years ago, one of the first vns I ever read. I personally loved it, especially the way it makes you empathize with an antihero that Fuminori is, though probably it's the fact that when taken from his perspective nothing he did was morally wrong, hell he's more of a hero than an antihero in that regard.|
The NTR I could have been without. Although it made me hate the ''monster blobs'' so it served its point I would say.
Also no, Fuminori was never a sociopath, he was acting as a decent human being 99% of the time, nothing he did was morally wrong simply because from his perspective he was killing, and feeding on literal monsters. I don't see how that is in anyway more morally wrong than for example feeding on animals.Last modified on 2019-07-06 at 11:15
|#74 by ffthewinner|
2019-07-24 at 01:10
|^you are forgetting that he fully knows in his brain that he is seeing things wrong and those things are actually his friends and colleagues and fellow humans.|
honestly though,that is part of the story's beauty. he isnt a sociopath. he simply loves Saya so much that he is willing to do ANYTHING to keep her safe and sound,no matter what.Last modified on 2019-07-24 at 01:12
|#75 by cyric|
2019-07-31 at 15:16
|True, but that doesn't really matter. Humans have inbuilt biases, as in eating meat, prefering one animal over another, why kill a cow but feel hurt when others eat dog. He's human, the way we percieve the world is vital to us, it's how we empathize. He had no empathy towards humans because all of his senses were telling him they weren't human. Not to mention the whole pleasure aspect of it, most eat meat because it tastes good, if you had the option of eating filth or green pleasurably tasting ''fruit'' fo the rest of your life, most wouldn't eat filth, eating meat/killing for food at this point has no rationallity behind it other than ''It tastes good'', and we don't percieve animals as akin to human as they do not look like us, even though most higher cognitive animals could have higher intelect than a brain damaged coma patient. What I'm saying all in all, it's hard to consider a disgusting blob of flesh as human, even though you might know they're just like you, Fuminori had actual amazing mental fortitude compared to others in the same boat. Neighbor. |
The only morally dubious thing he did was depending on route not letting saya fix his brain and even then it can be justified, all his life was already practically over, he wasn't going to get a normal life, as he has already went through a threshold.
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