Seinarukana -GD-

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#76 by blasterion
2016-04-25 at 03:43
< report >yeah friken guy is upstoppable pretty much ditch the save or wait for a new game + file now or get a download a trainer, because there is no way to deal with this guy, tried everything from Banishes (not high enough level) to Heals, to just about anything else

edit: nvm managed to find a way to barely out heal him with breeze and Nozomu Tanking, slowly chipping away his hp with Katima who was the only other character that can withstand Graviton SpamLast modified on 2016-04-25 at 04:05
#77 by dk382
2016-04-25 at 06:02
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Yumina was the game that let you change skills, and it caused the combat to slow to a crawl. If they let you change skills, that means it'll be balanced so you NEED to change skills. I like it much better this way.
I preferred Yumina's combat to Aselia's, but I haven't played Seinarukana yet so I can't really judge it. Generally speaking, I prefer games that give you more options and are balanced around those options. Even if it makes the combat slower, I'm perfectly okay with that. I like taking my time to figure out the ideal strategies and "combat puzzle" solutions.

Unfortunately, Yumina's combat was flawed in other major ways. It falls victim to the same pratfall most JRPGs do, where the ideal solution is actually just to grind so you can overpower the enemy with the same, simplistic techniques you've been employing since the beginning. The solution for each combat encounter is almost identical, with only minor variations based on the enemy's color. It ended up being just as mindless as Aselia's in the end, but at least it kept me engaged for a little longer, whereas in Aselia I started wanting to find ways to skip it almost right away.

There's still no translated VN RPG with better combat than Kamidori. And that game's combat is still not exactly perfect, it's equivalent to an average SRPG. But at least they give you a wealth of options, allowing you to tackle each encounter in a pretty large variety of ways. Even if the best way generally involves having Yuela go berserk in her beast armor.Last modified on 2016-04-25 at 06:04
#78 by kiru
2016-04-25 at 09:01
< report >Oh there is a better translated VN Rpg than Kamidori. Easily: Tears to Tiara 2. I know this gets sometimes forgotten, as it's not for PC, but it has actually GOOD gameplay made by Sting. (Also people tend to praise Sengoku Rance a lot too)
That said, Kamidori can't even begin to hold a candle to TtT2. Which admittedly is also because they mix two systems they shouldn't ever have mixed: Fire Emblem + Alchemy customization. Fire Emblem is known for an extremely light Rpg system. It's more about strategy. You have a bunch of generic weapons, a bit of healing and so on, but nothing really big you could customize, as it clashes with the core idea of the games: Strategy instead of "power leveling".
Eushully really didn't understand that. They added massive customization to a Fire Emblem style system, but when you go out and spend a lot of time to gather material to get an upgraded weapon, all it does (of course) is add +1 strength or something similarly useless. A lucky level-up does the same. That is the very reason why you won't find major RPG elements in Fire Emblem, as it makes zero sense. The system is precisely designed for NOT having that.

Truth be told, such a major mess-up in the whole idea of the game is telling a lot. Whoever designed the gameplay of Kamidori can't have much experience with the genre. They just randomly clashed two things together. It's sad, because the dungeon system was fine and you can see that they put a lot of effort in skill and enemy variety and whatnot. Well, they also forgot a certain gameplay mechanism exists a third into the game, but.. well. It's such a weird game.
Now, that doesn't mean that Aselia or Yumina are much better. Nah. But I guess at least they didn't take two "popular" systems and put them together without giving a single crap about if it even works. Truth be told, Aselia (and to an extend Yumina) remind me a bit of some Sting games. Sting sometimes is too "ambitious", trying to be different. They create some super unique system, which ends up overcomplicated or just bad. Sting recently went a bit away from that, but they have several.. "weird" games. Aselia also feels like someone had this grand idea.. which just doesn't work out. Well, aside of that there's also the "can't skip battles" issue and "need to grind, and everything takes forever" in Yumina..

Oh well. I'm sure there are better games than Seinarukana to bring over as RPG-VNs. Very sure. But well.. technically this should've been released what.. 3 years ago? They licensed it mid 2011 right? Heh, what can you do. Of course there should be something better BY NOW. Back then.. maybe not. (edit: Oh god, not even Kamidori had all its content released at the time they licensed Seinarukana. That.. says a whole damn lot. What are you doing JAST..)Last modified on 2016-04-25 at 09:04
#79 by dk382
2016-04-25 at 09:16
< report >A ton of SRPGs feature heavy character customization and leveling components, and they pull that feat off much better than Kamidori does. I don't think including heavy customization and optional grinding is inherently bad in SRPGs, you just have to execute on those ideas correctly. In Final Fantasy Tactics for example, there's generally a limit to how much you can feasibly grind, you really only grind to expand your options rather than to become blatantly overpowered. Enemies don't dramatically increase in power level until you move on in the story. FFT managed to bring depth to both sides of the coin, creating a very deep character customization system alongside some pretty tactical battles. Tactics Ogre does this well, too. Both of these games have their flaws, for sure, but I think there's proof that you can introduce deep character customization into SRPGs and not just have them be purely about battle strategy.

As for where Kamidori failed, the grinding was both too easy and too tedious, not to mention mandatory if you wanted to make serious headway into upgrading the armors. The game actively encouraged you to do the easy, tedious grinding that would heavily overpower you in the main story missions.
#80 by kiru
2016-04-25 at 09:20
< report >It's not about SRPGs featuring heavy customization. It's about it using the Fire-Emblem style and trying to add this to it. That doesn't work. You could easily do it with a plethora of other systems out there, no problem at all. Like actually not random level-ups would already fix a ton of issues. And generally speaking, the more customization you offer, the less "levels" should do. Well, basically, look at recent Atelier games and you know how you implement alchemy. It's.. the easiest way. Gust has more or less 20 years experience with item crafting as a major component of their games. You'd actually be stupid to NOT look at their games if you'd ever want to create something like this.
#81 by gabezhul
2016-04-25 at 09:35
< report >I don't think Kamidori was actually doing the "Fire Emblem" thing though. The stats from leveling weren't random, weapons didn't have usage limits, no perma-death... Actually, aside of being a grid-based SRPG, I see no similarities...

Also, please don't derail the thread too much.
#82 by kiru
2016-04-25 at 09:39
< report >Stats were random. You have a growth-rate like in FE. It also used the damage formula of it. It also used the "multi-attack" system of it. Slightly changed, but still the same idea.Last modified on 2016-04-25 at 09:39
#83 by gabezhul
2016-04-25 at 09:43
< report >I don't think any of those elements are exclusive to the FE franchise.
#84 by kiru
2016-04-25 at 09:58
< report >.. do we really have to go there? Just doing a short google search will give you plenty of results with people comparing them.. for good reason. I could write you why, but it's honestly insanely obvious if you play these two titles. The exact same level-up system, stat-system, battle-phase system and so on are all here. That's no coincidence. They modified it. But not even by that much.

Well, this would get too off-topic, so really, just google or.. accept it. Or don't, whatever. It's not about Kamidori using the FE system, it's about that its own components clash. Doesn't matter how you call them.
#85 by gabezhul
2016-04-25 at 10:02
< report >I have played both franchises, and in my opinion they are not nearly similar enough to draw extensive parallels, especially when bits and pieces of these systems have been floating around for decades at this point, but I suppose we just have to agree to disagree.

Also, yeah, we are getting very off-topic here. While I don't mind it every now and then, this is a new release and we should let people talk about it instead.
#86 by kiru
2016-04-25 at 10:05
< report >Yeah, that's better. So, to get back on track, I'd still like to see some opinion on how this improved the gameplay of Aselia. Or, in other words, sell me on this after not being a big fan of the Aselia gameplay.
#87 by gabezhul
2016-04-25 at 10:09
< report >Was there anyone who was a fan of the gameplay on the first place? :P

That said, according to what I have heard it is pretty much the same, just re-balanced around more skill-uses, extra resources and two damage types. That is all the combat though, what I really want to know myself is whether they got rid of the soul-crushingly boring unit movement.
#88 by liquidacid
2016-04-25 at 14:48
< report >I like most of the changes to the gameplay. Especially the speed stat which lets you pretty much change the flow of combat by changing how often and how fast a units turn comes (I've gotten units to basically get double moves compared to the enemy). The only problem I have is the same as I had with the first game and that's mana conversions. It only happens during combat which means to upgrade units a lot of the time you simply have to turtle up and wait out multiple turns till you have enough to upgrade them since they also need to be at a base to start it. It's just annoying especially since the rank you get for a mission is largely just how quick you complete it. You are completely locked out of anything character set-up related even the stat screens when not in a mission. You can't even look at the character bios when in story mode.Last modified on 2016-04-25 at 14:50
#89 by sanahtlig
2016-04-25 at 20:18
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The only problem I have is the same as I had with the first game and that's mana conversions. It only happens during combat which means to upgrade units a lot of the time you simply have to turtle up and wait out multiple turns till you have enough to upgrade them since they also need to be at a base to start it. It's just annoying especially since the rank you get for a mission is largely just how quick you complete it.
That's part of the strategy that makes the gameplay challenging and interesting. If you want to get the highest ranks, you have to figure out how to conserve time. That means you have to carefully manage your level-ups and sometimes clear missions with underleveled troops. If I recall correctly, I did all my leveling at the start of missions.Last modified on 2016-04-25 at 20:20
#90 by liquidacid
2016-04-25 at 20:48
< report >I understand it's an intended mechanic but that doesn't make it any less annoying. Especially when you don't care about the rank and just want to upgrade your units so as not to pull your hair out later in frustration. It makes the combat phase drag on as you have to sit there and repeatedly tell your units to do nothing one by one. It would help if they at least had a "wait all" option of something.Last modified on 2016-04-25 at 20:50
#91 by encrypted12345
2016-04-25 at 21:25
< report >I'm going to replay Aselia first to see if the speed of the gameplay of that game bothers me as much as I first played it before deciding to buy this game.

I know that the story is slower, but would someone that has played Seinarukana say that the gameplay was faster?
#92 by loctar87
2016-04-26 at 00:25
< report >The battles go longer (Usually 5 turns for you, 5 turns for enemy) so you're much more likely to reach a result in a single battle than you were in Aselia. In that way, gameplay does proceed a bit faster, and a bit less movement is needed since you always only need to move to attack an enemy once or twice to win. But these might be considered minor improvements. Overall, it's quite similar to Aselia. Thank god the ctrl key speeds up battle animations.Last modified on 2016-04-26 at 00:32
#93 by blasterion
2016-04-26 at 01:20
< report >Anyone with a save file of a New Game+ because this is getting stupid ridiculous. Is there no easy mode in this game? Aselia was no where this impossible This game doesn't even let you grind!
#94 by loctar87
2016-04-26 at 01:52
< report >Currently in chapter 4. So far I'm liking my quick cheat engine hack to give me near-infinite bound mana. Much of the challenge still remains because of the other built in constraints on growth, but it helps me enough that I can get the best rank and the frustration is gone. My own custom easy mode.
#95 by blasterion
2016-04-26 at 03:54
< report >Same in Ch4 not using any cheats yet but the Spear Boss is always infuriating, while Evolia was a punk, that All Rounder Nozomu totally man handled
#96 by loctar87
2016-04-26 at 04:52
< report >All-Rounder Nozomu is defintely best overall unit. Powerful attack, Material and Force defense (with 1 mana cost so he can defend against both the enemy attacker and enemy supporter), and a healing skill. He can take on almost anything.
#97 by blasterion
2016-04-26 at 04:57
< report >I seem to recall that one (actually 2) other OP Units that make even Nozomu look meh, But yeah I am trying to buff Nozomu as much as I can because it looks like he's the only one that can brunt through some of the bosses
#98 by blasterion
2016-04-26 at 05:00
< report >Nozomi would make an Amazing All rounder if she just had some form of Force Defense, instead of Pure Materia
#99 by liquidacid
2016-04-26 at 07:15
< report >That's weird. There are 12 chapters yet every guide I've found so far stops at chapter 4... lol

Edit: found one that doesn't but it's not in EnglishLast modified on 2016-04-26 at 07:39
#100 by gabezhul
2016-04-26 at 08:05
< report >A few things I've read elsewhere:
-You can apparently hack the turn number (or rather the real-time-whatchamacallit number) and set it low at the end of the map to get an easy S/SS rank.

-I haven't heard anything else about the whole Buddhism -> Christianity translation thing, but according to some anons they got rid of all the honorifics and other Japanese staples (apparently the childhood friend routine calls the other girl senpai but the text uses her name instead) and had some peculiar word-choices (translating "baka" as "jerk" seems to be a common complaint). For obvious reasons I cannot comment on whether these are actually immersion-breaking and/or annoying changes, but I see a lot of posts mentioning them.