Cup Size field / Breast Size traits
|#1 by takata|
2016-01-24 at 14:20
|Now that the Breast Size traits have gotten a little messier, can we have a cup size field for characters (similar to the height, weight and bust-waist-hips fields), as discussed in t1377.127? Could be displayed like this in the character's "measurements" line:|
Suppose we do get a cup size field. How should it work in combination with the traits?
1. Should we just have traits for "flat" (hinnyuu/pettanko), "large" (kyonyuu) and "super large" (bakunyuu/chounyuu), with no trait for average-size?
2. Also, should we use the relevant traits at all when the exact cup size (letter) is known?
3. Note that different developers can have very little coherence with each other when it comes to apparent and declared breast sizes. For example: Oomori Nanako looks super-large (to me), and is declared a K-cup, while Saionji Kaoru looks only large, and is declared an L-cup. Should we just accept that there are going to be inconsistencies, and ignore them when it comes to tagging them? (So, we'd tag both these characters as "super large", even though one of them doesn't look super-large?)
Note that this is kind of similar to the situation we have with height. We have a field to store a character's height in cm, and 3 traits for Short (<1.45m), Tall (>1.8m) and Average Height.
Also, could multi automatically add the appropriate breast size trait / height trait every time the cup size field / height field is edited? (-and also erase incorrect breast size and height traits? ...could behave a bit strangely for transforming characters like Maia, with both AA and E+ traits.) Multi can already do reverse-relation updates...
Could also get multi to edit the bust size field for every character with the traits for A, B, C and D, since these were only supposed to be used when stated by the developer somewhere.Last modified on 2016-01-24 at 14:25
|#2 by skorpiondeath|
2016-01-24 at 18:35
|1/2: If the size is present in letter form I think that traits become kinda useless...But that's only if we can have a way to search through those letters...like for example I want all characters with breast size > K or from H to P. |
If a search is not possible than traits are ok as they are imo since we can search with a certain degree of error at least characters with big breast or huge breast.
Note that different developers can have very little coherence with each other when it comes to apparent and declared breast sizes.I think we should stick with developer choice as documented always. That said is important to understand that cup size alone doesn't mean breast size.
Bra size is composed of two dimensions; the band size and the cup size. The band size is measured numerically e.g. 30, 32, and 34…etc. and refers to the size of the rib cage. The cup size is measured alphabetically e.g. A, B, C, D, E, F… etc. and refers to the size of the breasts in relation to the rib cage i.e.how much bigger the breasts are than the rib cage.
It is important to note that the cup size doesn’t represent volume, but instead represents how much bigger they are than the rib cage. Breast size cannot be determined by the cup size alone as it is affected by the band size. For example, D cup breasts on a 28 band are smaller in volume than D cup breasts on a 40 band.
So in your example Oomori Nanako have bigger breast since she measure 118cm in band size against 100cm of Saionji Kaoru but Oomori Nanako rib cage is much more large meaning that the cup size could be smaller even with larger breast.
In the end our "E+ cup" trait has always been used as it was named "Large Breast" it has little to do to cup size alone.Last modified on 2016-01-24 at 18:50
|#3 by takata|
2016-01-25 at 00:00
|Yes, there should be a way to search and filter characters by cup size. However, most characters don't have an exact cup size specified by the developer, so we will still need a few traits to mark at least flat, large and super large. ...It's probably actually useful to mark even the characters with stated cup sizes with the appropriate trait so that someone filtering for "large" will find all the characters, not just the ones without a stated size.|
Hm... yeah, you could put the difference between Oomori Nanako's and Saionji Kaoru's apparent breast size down to the former's 118cm bust vs the latter's 100cm. However, there's also Ebihara Mai, with a stated 123cm bust and Q cup size. I don't think she looks like she should have a bigger bust measurement than Oomori Nanako, but -shrug-.
In the end our "E+ cup" trait has always been used as it was named "Large Breast" it has little to do to cup size alone.I'll agree that when users try to judge a character's breast size, they will unconsciously consider their bust size too, not just their cup size. ie, character's with the same cup but bigger bust will look bigger, and this may cause them to pick the "super large" trait instead of the "large" trait.Last modified on 2016-01-25 at 00:19
|#4 by skorpiondeath|
2016-01-25 at 00:42
Yes, there should be a way to search and filter characters by cup size. However, most characters don't have an exact cup size specified by the developer, so we will still need a few traits to mark at least flat, large and super large.I get your point and I agree, but that only if yorhel agrees on implementing a cup size field.
As today E+ Cup has "Large brest" in his alias so it has been used to mark characters with large breast even when cup size is unknown like for example Maou, which has obviously Bakunyuu if not even Chounyuu breast size.
If a change is made Maou could be tagged as "super large" breast leaving the cup field empty since is not possible to tag it with H to M Cup or N+ Cup since cup size is not documented.Last modified on 2016-01-25 at 01:00
|#5 by takata|
2016-01-25 at 02:33
|Yeah, the new traits don't fully solve the problem of everyone from link (v5657) to link (v8777) being added under E+ Cup, since the new traits specify that you can't just guess a character's cup size.|
If yorhel doesn't implement this or say he's going to implement this in the next week or so, I'll just ask warfoki to carry out some clean up on the new traits, and maybe allow guessing for H to M Cup. ...maybe also a shift to the "unrealistic" scale in the cited reference (link) in the trait, since we -are- dealing with VNs.
|#6 by yorhel|
2016-01-26 at 17:38
|I don't have a strong opinion against implementing this as a separate field, but I'm missing the argument about why the traits are not a good solution. What's the problem with traits that a separate field will solve?|
In any case, I probably won't have time to work on this until the weekend, so don't expect this change to happen fast.
|#7 by skorpiondeath|
2016-01-26 at 18:30
but I'm missing the argument about why the traits are not a good solutionLets start saying that traits under Breast Size should just tell if a breast is "absent"(loli), "small" (pettanko), big (Kyonyuu), or super big (Bakunyuu/Chounyuu), instead as it is today those traits are linked to cup size Kyonyuu is under E+ cup, pettanko under AA cup.
Traits are good but they should just make an idea about breast size without involving the cup size of a character since breast size is function of cup size and band size and not just cup size alone.
I was unsure at the beginning but the more I think about it the more I think takata is right.
In any case, I probably won't have time to work on this until the weekend, so don't expect this change to happen fast.Yorhel I don't know what usually people expect from you but the weekend seems super fast to me.
I wanna add that cup size is a physical info like weight or blood type so having his own field is not a bad idea expecially since most of the time I have inserted cup size in the description field but that's not the right place to put it.Last modified on 2016-01-26 at 20:50
|#8 by takata|
2016-01-27 at 13:26
I don't have a strong opinion against implementing this as a separate field, but I'm missing the argument about why the traits are not a good solution. What's the problem with traits that a separate field will solve?1. Cup size data simply "goes with" height, weight, bust, waist and hips measurements. They will tend to be mentioned in the same place if the developer chooses to mention them at all.
2. While cup size data isn't continuous like height or weight, it lies on a 27-point scale (from AA to Z). Traits aren't good for something with that many possible values. Sure, you don't -have- to store the exact cup size, much like you don't -have- to store a character's exact height. You could use traits to mark a character as flat/large/super-large, or short/average height/tall. ...But if you do this, the traits present only a lossy picture of the raw data, when it would take no more effort to just record the raw data.
- For the height traits, we have arbitrary values (1.45m and 1.8m) marking the boundaries between short, average and tall. This easy approach probably won't work well with breast size traits since developers aren't really consistent with each other and users probably pay more attention to breast sizes than height. Should we just rely on pictures to show examples of flat, kyonyuu and bakunyuu? (I don't notice the difference between bakunyuu and chounyuu.)
Some VNs with stated cup sizes:
honoo no haramase series (tends to overstate?)
kyonyuu fantasy series
Ore Tsuma! ~Ore ga Mansion Kanrinin ni Nattara Hitozuma-tachi to Chotto Ii Koto Dekichau kamo!?~
Eroge! ~H mo Game mo Kaihatsu Zanmai~
Mono Gokoro, Mono Musume.
|#9 by warfoki|
2016-01-27 at 14:39
|If the developers give an official cup size, then it can go into the field on the character's page. Whether it is well represented in the art or not doesn't matter. I mean, if I'd put every character with the same, say, 165 cm official height, they wouldn't look to be of the same height since artistic representation of the same thing can vary.|
If this gets implemented, then I get rid of the traits, with two exceptions: one for small cups (eg. A-B) and one for the really huge watermelons (E+). So basically the same treatment as height.Last modified on 2016-01-27 at 23:35
|#10 by skorpiondeath|
2016-01-27 at 15:56
one for small cups (eg. A-B) and one for the really huge watermelons (E+).I think you should at least leave 2 traits for big breast so we have the possibility to differentiate Kyonyuu from Bakunyuu/Chounyuu.
|#11 by overmage|
2016-01-27 at 16:26
|I just want to point out that if you actually know anything about cup sizes you would know Oomori Nanako in real life would be way beyond K. It helps that I have an IRL friend who is a natural J.|
It's either due to developers not knowing anything about cup sizes work or taking real artistic licenses (e.g. you know how when animes tease girls with small tits? When those tits would actually be a C cup IRL, animus almost always call them A cups or "nothing". Part of that is because even decently sized breasts don't really stand out with most clothing that isn't specifically designed to highlight the bust. Rule of thumb is that an IRL DD (Japanese F) is approximately equal to an anime C cup (often referred to as "medium-sized" but actually absolutely gigantic IRL and already on the backache threshold)
In general consider suspending your disbelief greatly when seeing 2d listed cup sizes, even if they're what the developer themselves state. They either don't give two shits about accuracy, or have never seen real tits before. In fact, while Honoo no Haramase Doukyuusei does overstate slightly (and sometimes just not to scale at all, with characters with vastly varying cup sizes drawn similarly), the breast sizes are actually closer to their IRL equivalents than almost all other kyonyuu eroge I've seen to date.
I'm not saying that this should have any impact on this database by the way. Just remember that animu cannot into accurate breast sizesLast modified on 2016-01-27 at 16:39
|#12 by takata|
2016-01-28 at 00:11
|^ Ah, so it's not that Honoo no Haramase is overstating, it's that almost every other vn is understating their characters' sizes... ...and that's in addition to link suggesting that you only need at least an E to be kyonyuu in real life, but in anime, you tend to need at least a G to go from average to kyonyuu. o.o|
I think you should at least leave 2 traits for big breast so we have the possibility to differentiate Kyonyuu from Bakunyuu/Chounyuu.Yeah, I'd like to do this too, but then we need to describe the difference between kyonyuu and bakunyuu. ...as a rough guideline, I'll suggest that if one of their breasts is bigger than their head, they're bakunyuu. How's that?Last modified on 2016-01-28 at 00:23
|#13 by skorpiondeath|
2016-01-28 at 13:08
bigger than their head, they're bakunyuuI'm ok with that, expecially since I'm interested in searching bakunyuu characters and as today is impossible to find them directly but you should cycle all E+ cup characters, and we have a huge amounts of those characters not just 2 or 3.
It helps that I have an IRL friend who is a natural J.Lucky you! :P
|#14 by overmage|
2016-01-28 at 15:41
|I'm a little surprised, but I was right on the money. As your link suggests, DD/F is enough to qualify for 巨乳 and is right on its threshold and will give a visible chest bulge even with non cosplay/streetwalker clothing. Any size larger than that in general starts to cause backache.|
Lucky you! :P
My ex-girlfriend was a D and I have a close friend with C and another with B. I also know a natural H, which along with my J friend allows me to judge the sizes realistically. :p
To make things worse, since animu characters have impossibly narrow waists (technically achievable with very painful corset binding), that would raise their cup sizes even higher for the same breast size. Elphelt Valentine would be approximately I-cup (American G) on a normal girl, but with that nonexistent waist and ribs she's probably closer to K (American I), or even higher.Last modified on 2016-01-28 at 16:21
|#15 by skorpiondeath|
2016-01-28 at 18:33
|@overmage: since you know so much on the matter, what do you think about differentiate Kyonyuu from Bakunyuu/Chounyuu in traits, expecially when cup size and measure are absent? |
Do you think takata's idea about "breasts is bigger than their head" could work out nicely?
|#16 by lmtuan98|
2016-01-28 at 23:45
|I dont see the point of the official cup size, aside from making data more comprehensive. People would only look at the art anyway.|
- BWH: official number. No need for official cup size.
- Trait: flat-small-average-large-huge, based on visual (sprites and cgs)
|#17 by takata|
2016-01-29 at 22:46
|^I don't think we should have traits for averages. Just use no trait at all.|
I also think it would be too hard to tell flat and small apart to have separate traits for them.
|#18 by vyseinglebard|
2016-01-31 at 06:57
|I guess you could take the range from here: link (this page does not contain futanari or images).|
Its very hard to judge though. The size could be due to the art style and general exaggeration of proportions or just due to the cast's genuine size.
|#19 by overmage|
2016-01-31 at 15:05
|@15: My expertise is in real breasts only. I can't help with 2d stuff. :(|
Personal opinion would be to only use small(including flat), average, large and nonsensically large (larger than head is, i think, a good barometer). Like #17 said it's too hard to distinguish between small and flat, so there's no point.Last modified on 2016-01-31 at 15:10
|#20 by skorpiondeath|
2016-01-31 at 15:09
@15: My expertise is in real breasts only. I can't help with 2d stuff. :(That emoticon should be :D or ;D and not :( it's more important to be expert in real life!!
|#21 by randomaan|
2016-02-20 at 14:18
|Any news on if this is being worked on?|
As Takata said
Yeah, the new traits don't fully solve the problem of everyone from link (v5657) to link (v8777) being added under E+ Cup, since the new traits specify that you can't just guess a character's cup size.The current system makes it very hard to search for specific breast sizes if the Cup size is undocumented.
And even when the size is documented it helps a bit but still leaves room for a lot of issues because of the fact that the size is just made up by the artist. For example both link (c6692) and link (character on left side) (c11462) have Q in cup size, where as the forementioned would probably be bakunyuu or even chounyuu and the latter would probably be kyonyuu. Both are however classified as chounyuu according to link Since they have Q cups.
All of this makes it very tough to search for Bakunyuu characters since most of them are still categorized as E+.
If you look at the site anidb.net they have character tags for Large Breasts(Kyonyuu) as well as Gigantic Breasts(Bakunyuu) which is based on eye measure rather than cup size. Their database does not have a Cup size field. But to be honest I don't think the cup size in itself is important to anyone, rather I think whats important is the size of the breasts.
So all in all I think it would be more helpful to rename the Cup size traits to: Small breasts, large breasts, gigantic breasts (or something along these lines)
where we tag based on the characters looks.Last modified on 2016-02-20 at 14:22
|#22 by immlff|
2016-02-23 at 20:38
|I agree with people who said that cup sizes are not particularly important and it would be better to restructure current Breast Size traits into the ones defined by how visibly large they are.|
As for how many new traits we need and how to define them, we could adopt the system used at Danbooru (with a few changes perhaps):
Flat chest (Munyuu)
Small breasts (Hinnyuu, Binyuu)
Large breasts (Kyonyuu)
Huge breasts (Bakunyuu)
Gigantic breasts (Chounyuu)
This way our approach and naming would also be consistent with previously linked guides ( link and link ) and with tags at Pixiv.
|#23 by skorpiondeath|
2016-02-23 at 20:47
I agree with people who said that cup sizes are not particularly importantCup size is important as it is blood type or height in a VN character, maybe not so important but why not having a simple field to document it? As today many times cup size is listed under character description which is not correct.
That said I agree cup size alone is not sufficient and doesn't help on correctly finding breast, but that's not a reason to exclude it from the character infos. On this matter I was waiting for Yorhel but I'm not sure if he got time to add a cup size field.
So best idea would probably be rename existing traits avoiding cup size involvement and move cup size to a specific field on character page.Last modified on 2016-02-23 at 20:50
|#24 by jazz957|
2016-02-23 at 21:16
|Glad to see VNDB likes to talk about boobies as much as I do. :P|
|#25 by randomaan|
2016-02-24 at 01:04
Cup size is important as it is blood type or height in a VN character, maybe not so important but why not having a simple field to document it?Yeah I can see how the Cup size may be relevant to keep as a field in the case that the character has a documented Cup size.
So best idea would probably be rename existing traits avoiding cup size involvement and move cup size to a specific field on character page.Yeah I agree, by renaming the traits we wouldn't need to re-apply the traits to every character. A script would have to be made that transfers the Cup Size trait into a character field tho, so we don't have to re-apply that information.
Glad to see VNDB likes to talk about boobies as much as I do. :PHaha :D
Edit: Someone just changed the breast size trait from E+ -> H to M cup trait to a character entry I made with the edit summary of:
the game has "bakunyuu" in it & based on the woman's boob size i'm assuming thisWhich makes sense since bakunyuu according to link is at least somewhere between H to T depending on how you read it.
But since the cup size is undocumented I'm not sure if I should revert the change or not.Last modified on 2016-02-24 at 01:27
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