Cup Size field / Breast Size traits

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#51 by yorhel
2019-10-31 at 12:32
@skorpiondeath: That query looks useful! Surprised it's only about 1400 entries, but definitely better play it safe with mangling descriptions.

If there are filters with cup min, cup max sliders like for heigth and weight
Yeah, that's my intention.

I'm not sure yet what to do with the E+ cup traits. I'm inclined to keep the traits for now for characters where we can't do an automatic conversion, so we at least don't lose any information. The A-D traits can be safely removed.
#52 by skorpiondeath
2019-10-31 at 13:13
I'm inclined to keep the traits for now for characters where we can't do an automatic conversion, so we at least don't lose any information
I agree to not remove those too. A-D traits can be removed.

Just in case Yorhel I just found we miss an Age field too. Not sure if you want that though.
In that case there are also 2171 descriptions with "Age: xx"
#53 by rampaa
2019-10-31 at 16:19
I'm not sure yet what to do with the E+ cup traits.
Rename AA Cup as "Small Breasts" and E+ Cup as "Big Breasts". Make H to M Cup not-taggable. Rename N+ Cup as "Gigantic Breasts". Create a new trait called "Moderate Breasts" to cover anything in-between. That way we can distinguish guesswork from the WoG and actually tag characters with how they look.
#54 by warfoki
2019-10-31 at 17:07
Disagree with this solution, with generic names like "big breasts", these traits will be all over the place in terms of applications. The only similar trait we have right now, Big Ass, is already a right mess because of people having wildly different ideas when it should be applied.
#55 by rampaa
2019-10-31 at 17:27
We also have Short, Average Height and Tall.

Plus I am not proposing anything new to begin with. AA Cup has been used for small breasts and E+ Cup has been used for big/large breasts for decades, just have a look at their descriptions. The only difference is, before having a separate field for breast sizes, we couldn't distinguish characters whose breasts were confirmed to be AA Cup by their developers from those who are not, now we can. Small-Medium-Big-Gigantic is a good way to categorize breast-size IMHO. If we don't allow such a categorization, we won't be able to tag character's whose official cup size is unknown. I should be able to tag, say, Iris Milla Serpettane as small breasted, whether or not her cup size is confirmed.Last modified on 2019-10-31 at 17:33
#56 by skorpiondeath
2019-10-31 at 18:08
We also have Short, Average Height and Tall.
You know you just highlighted the main problem. You didn't read the description. Those trait just states how much is it tall, and short in cm. So you cannot possibily go wrong if you read the description.

AA Cup has been used for small breasts and E+ Cup has been used for big/large breasts for decades
Yes but E+ is more of a mess than anything, probably warfoki is just afraid that splitting in 2 more categories will just worsen the situation.
#57 by rampaa
2019-10-31 at 18:38
You know you just highlighted the main problem.
I most certainly did not. Warfoki was complaining about "generic name"s and you cannot be more generic than "tall". The description has nothing to do with it.

So you cannot possibily go wrong if you read the description.
If a character looks like a midget and is treated like one as well in-universe, I should be able to mark him as short. But I can't, according to that description, if his/her height is not confirmed. Do you see the problem here?
#58 by skorpiondeath
2019-10-31 at 18:46
"generic name"s and you cannot be more generic than "tall"
Tall is generic name for a precise rule being taller than 1.80m.
Large Breast is a generic name for ??? a generic rule.

Do you see the problem here?
I do rampaa, but you don't get the point.
If it's a midget ok but you took the easy route to win the argument...put midgets aside the problem arises with characters near the boundaries...if there is not a rule then everyone is gonna judge based on what he thinks it's tall, large and then it becomes subjective.
There was a recent batch of "Big Ass" additions... I was not convinced those were "Big Asses" some other users instead thinks they are...
Now should I remove them? And if I do based on what? My only perception?Last modified on 2019-10-31 at 18:48
#59 by warfoki
2019-10-31 at 19:54
Funny that you bring up Short, Average Height and Tall, because if my memory serves right they were misapplied a lot and there were even occasional edit wars until they got codified with exact heights. Arbitrary? Sure, but it works. Also, Average height is underused, even with 10k+ applications. There are 80k+ characters in the database, about 50k or more is probably of average height, it's just people very often don't use extremely common traits. when I tag characters, I can almost always add, say, Pale because while people almost always tag Dark, Pale is the expected, "default" value and people ususaly just don't bother. So having a "medium" breastsize is almost guaranteed to be underutilized.

My point is, if we have no underlying exact value to judge breastsize on, then I will not let any such traits used, because it absolutely will be misused. If we base these traits on cupsizes, then at that point why even have the traits, when we will have the cupsizes as a separate field? I'm not saying that traits like these are impossible to get right, but NEEDS to be some form of verifiable data they are based on, otherwise it's entirely up for personal taste and that WILL lead to a mess.

To give you an example that is NOT based on cupsizes, Gelbooru has a 5-tier breast-size system, with the following definitions:

Flat chest:

For Gelbooru purposes, a flat chest is exactly what it says, i.e. no breasts whatsoever. For breasts larger than flat yet smaller than normal, use the small_breasts tag.

Primarily for use with older-looking characters, though it may also be applied to loli characters. Not for use with child depictions.

This tag may be used for trap characters where appropriate, although puffy_chest may also be appropriate.

The flat chest tag is mutually exclusive to the breasts tag, i.e. don't tag both unless another character in the picture meets the criteria for the breasts tag.

Small breasts:

Small breasts are larger than a flat_chest and smaller than medium_breasts.

Use this tag if the character's chest is not flat, but the breast would not hang over a hand placed immediately beneath the breast. In other words, if there's enough to cast a shadow, yet there is not enough to hang or squeeze together, then use the small breasts tag.

Medium breasts:

Breasts that are larger than small_breasts and smaller than large_breasts.

For Gelbooru purposes, breasts are medium-sized if any part of the breast would hang over a hand placed immediately beneath the breast, yet the breast is considerably smaller than the size of the person's head.

Large breasts:

Breasts that are larger than large_breasts and smaller than gigantic_breasts.

Use this tag if the volume of a character's breast is:

Lower bound:
* Larger than the character's head
Upper bound:
* Less than twice the volume of the head

Gigantic breasts:

Gigantic breasts, used generally for breasts which are unrealistically large, approximately more than twice the size of one's head; smaller than nothing.

I'm not saying that this system would necessarily be a good fit for VNDB. It is an image site after all, not a character database. What I'm saying is that we NEED to have some form of definitions for these sizes if they are not based on cupsizes, something that people can go and check. I will never in a million years let through a Large Breasts trait with a description like "this character has rather large breasts", because I'm unwilling to deal with the headache it will become a year or so down the line.Last modified on 2019-10-31 at 19:56
#60 by rampaa
2019-10-31 at 20:04
@skorpiondeath:
Tall is generic name for a precise rule being taller than 1.80m.
Large Breast is a generic name for ??? a generic rule.
I can easily come up with an arbitrary rule just like Tall. Here's one:

"As a guideline, we've decided to list characters with a bust size between 90-120 as big breasted."

Here's another:

"As a guideline, we've decided to list characters with a cup size between E to M as big breasted."

See, coming up with arbitrary and "precise" rules is easy enough. But that is certainly NOT the point I was making. I am talking about when we don't have a confirmed bust-size/cup-size, what do we do then? Are we just not going to tag the obvious? Do we require eye/hair colors to be confirmed by the producer as well?

put midgets aside the problem arises with characters near the boundaries
Of course there will be ambiguous cases. But the thing is, everything has some certain level of ambiguity. Eye/Hair color might be ambiguous at times. That does not mean we should not able to tag them unless we have the producers word for it.

People do care about how big a girl's tits are. So there is a need to supply that information. But, there are some cases where we don't have the official information regarding their breast-size. And all I am saying is not being able to tag the obvious is not desirable. If you still don't agree on that point, let's just agree to disagree.Last modified on 2019-10-31 at 20:06
#61 by rampaa
2019-10-31 at 20:15
@Warfoki:
To give you an example that is NOT based on cupsizes, Gelbooru has a 5-tier breast-size system
If you think these definitions are based on, as you put it, "verifiable data", then please use them. I just want to be able to tag the obvious cases even if we don't have the information regarding character's cup/bust-size. I am not too keen on the definitions themselves nor in their exact wording. If you think those definitions would help you as a mod, then that's all good.
#62 by warfoki
2019-10-31 at 20:32
Not a huge fan of copying those verbatim, I mainly used them as a reference, a starting point. Though I guess it's better than nothing...
#63 by skorpiondeath
2019-10-31 at 22:46
@rampaa:
If you still don't agree on that point, let's just agree to disagree.
I get your point, and I would gladly agree with you rather then disagree. Thing is I'm not defending this sytem whatsoever, it's a system that can be improved so I'm open to debate I just want to calibrate it in a way that it doesn't get misused.

Do we require eye/hair colors to be confirmed by the producer as well?
To be clear I was not saying that everything should be measured from what producers say about a character...since it's not even reliable at times....
Check the infamous Momoi Madoka...producers say L cup...come on...It's not even close to reality. Having a trait like H to M gives 0 information if cup size are just a random letter with no attachment to reality. Cup size field it's just to record producer data and should not be used as a rule since it's not reliable.

I mainly used them as a reference, a starting point. Though I guess it's better than nothing...
Comparing tits to head size seems a common thing. They do that even in anidb.
Having a graph could help too. Check this graphic out: link

I would say that when tits starts to become larger then head they become gigantic...in this graphic I would say strating from O+ they are gigantic.
Large breast instead (our E+) it's in line with E to N pictures.
So I would rather tag Momoi Madoka with "Gigantic Breast" and just put L in the cup size field.Last modified on 2019-10-31 at 22:49

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