Game inclusion in the DB

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#676 by mutsuki
2021-02-26 at 03:12
< report >#675, yes, but these two are not separate versions. You cannot get one without getting the other.
#677 by tomyun
2021-02-26 at 03:33
< report >#676 that reminded me of Stein;s Gate HD only offered as a bonus code for the first edition of Steins;Gate 0 on PS4. Would we remove SGHD since you cannot get one without getting SG0?
#678 by mutsuki
2021-02-26 at 04:02
< report >#677, idk it seems a bit different because it's a different game. This is a matter of buy the game at this online store and you get the right to stream it as well. SGHD is a matter of buy this game and get this completely different game too. If we want to, we can argue that you could [probably illegally idk] resell the SG:HD code, so you can have one without the other.Last modified on 2021-02-26 at 04:05
#679 by donkeyskin
2021-03-05 at 16:59
< report >I played Prince of Cats before and after its latest update. I think it is very similar to Long Live the Queen.
I wasn't able to able to finish the game since it's too difficult for me, but from what I've seen the raising stats/simulation system continuously interrupts the VN segments.Last modified on 2021-03-05 at 17:00
#680 by beliar
2021-03-07 at 19:29
< report >Okay, I have checked the Youtube videos and none of the games by Sierra (Sierra Entertainment) deserve to be here. They are oldschool first person adventure games with a text parser. Their primary function is not to tell a story, but to solve puzzles. Unless someone provides a good reason why they should stay, I will remove them in a day or so.
#681 by adamstan
2021-03-07 at 20:28
< report >Yeah, I agree. While Sierra did some great adventure games (I love "King's Quest" series), they are completely different style than the japanese adventure games that eventually evolved into VNs.
#682 by butterflygrrl
2021-03-07 at 21:32
< report >That handful of super early Sierra releases that DID get released in Japan (which I didn't know until now) is quite interesting from a historical perspective and almost certainly is _directly related_ to the Japanese adventure games that evolved into VNs.

They look far more relevant than something like Lolita: Yakyuuken (does that have any story in it at all? It looks like it's just stripping) or Spy Dai Sakusen which appears to be just a first-person-perspective dungeon crawl with also no text. or Ooi! Kaguya-hime ~Kinuginu no Wakare~ which is just an action game with stripping at the end of the level?

But just because the Sierra games are clearly part of the geneology of VNs doesn't necessarily mean they belong here. After all, the earliest video game ever invented obviously eventually leads to VNs but doesn't fit in this database.

It might be a good idea to look over all the super early games and establish some criteria for the cutoff point of where the genre's seeds start. Of all the games described in this review post: link which ones are really suitable? Several of them use the same "adventure game, move around and solve puzzles with a text parser, illustration covers most of the screen" style that those Sierra games do.
#683 by eacil
2021-03-08 at 06:15
< report >Wtf Beliar. Just when I spent two hours adding all the releases of Mystery House from Sierra and Micro Cabin. I am tired and now I have to defend those games... Why are you doing this to me?? ;__;

To expect very early games to be like poof visual novels is silly. Don't apply your modern logic to them! Why are you denying the genre an evolution by erasing the ancestors because they don't fit your fully formed vision? Early adventure games were all about resolving "puzzles". It was the same with text adventures. Go north, go west, pick key, use key, open door, etc. I recently spent ten hours scouring a jungle in The Death Trap. Even 90' adventure more-VN-ish games are about resolving "puzzles" but with a lightened "gameplay" where the goal is not to unlock a door by picking up objects but to find the next event, or unlock the next location. Sure, they don't satisfy your idea of narration, story or whatever, but this was in this magma of ideas where games were searching for their own identity, being stuck with very primitive limitations (go make a good story (TM) with a single cassette tape!), that the genre was created.

I am completely against the removal of those games because they don't fit your idea of story-driven adventure games. For anyone who wants to study the prehistorical shape of visual novels, having a curated list of adventure games based on arbitrary stuff like "this one is too puzzle-ish so I am deciding it was not part of the genealogy" will just makes him miss elements that taken alone don't fit your idea of an old adventure games but once inserted in a new concept led them to have had a pretty big influence on the genre. To take an example, where do you think all those prevalent moe-charage where you need to select choices pleasing a peculiar heroine to enter her route or unlock their true ending are coming from? if not from this mess of nanpa, ren'ai and bishoujo games where you try to input the right commands to obtain sexual favors or simply a kiss? They were about dating, not about complicated plot-driven stories. A game like Tokyo Nanpa Street would have never been added if this was up to you but that would have been a huge mistake considering how 1/ its primitive bubbling concept of matching the expectations of your female target is pretty much the current weighted flags system in a nutshell, 2/ this game was a best-seller and started the whole nanpa game trend.

Nobody browsing pre-90 games expects them to be all full fledged 90' type adventure games (no shit sherlock not being like the 90' in the 80') but more like a genre searching itself, with new introduced concepts lacking execution, but which are building on top of each others to bring us what we know as visual novels today. Spy Dai Sakusen is certainly not a dungeon crawler, it's a primitive adventure game. Don't you know ADV also have locations and are most of the time first person too as you see the graphics from the protagonist's point of view? The game is about stealing documents from the enemy spy's headquarter, I believe, like an episode of Mission Impossible. It wants to have a thriller feel and therefore try to emulate a RPG touch for you to believe that you are in the middle of the action. But this not an action game in the sense we understand it today, nor it is very RPG-ish as there are no enemies or mapping as everything is done through... text and like 5-6 graphic "first POV" tiles. This is why they call it a Role Playing Adventure Game. Do I have to remind people that RPG was a term that the developers had to explain in their game's manuals what that was because it wasn't conceptually stable yet or even known from the gamers themselves? Sure, this game is a weird recipe but, once again, it's an embryo of adventure game with additional elements of probably simulators more than RPG.

That's why I ask for games <1990 to allow all adventure games without criteria, as Japanese consider them, miscellaneous bishoujo games and "dating simulators". There are not millions and most of them are already here. There are ~1k games from <1991 and this is way less than the number of games that were released in 2020! And no, we won't end up adding RPG or shooters. Nobody is asking to add the Ultima series. No, all early games didn't eventually lead to VN. Do platformers, tabletop games, shooters, strategy games, actioners, quizz games, sport games, etc., lead to VN? I don't think so.
When you reach 1991, you can go back to business as usual (as long as you don't consider choices/commands as interruption of gameplay).
Nobody is bothered by those games, you just found them, Beliar, because you were adding X1 and FM-7/8 new platforms. They are not used to whine about this and that game not being added to the db because muh game from 1982 is not a typical VN. They do no harm and are pretty useful in knowing about the history of visual novels.

In fact, I was gonna ask to allow some milestones to the genre and to consider text adventures from the pre-graphical era, and the beginning of it, to be added. How can you ask for graphics when there were none? I am not knowledgeable when it comes to text adventures (and that's why I want them) but can we expect to be drowned under them (<1984)?

Seriously, guys, I find you to have a very restricted view of history and what a database could and should do.Last modified on 2021-03-08 at 12:03
#684 by butterflygrrl
2021-03-08 at 08:29
< report >Personally I think they're historically neat, I just want us to figure out what the criteria is and where the lines do fall, as I can't play most of these myself and have to rely on images and descriptions. It would be nice if the super early games included some notes about what they are and why they're here.

(Seriously, what is that Kaguya-hime game?)
#685 by eacil
2021-03-08 at 09:57
< report >Ooi! Kaguya-hime is a strip shooter. She wears a juunihitoe, a multi-layered ceremonial kimono. You have to find Kaguya hidden in the bamboos by shooting them with your "vigor" (精力). You lose 5 vigor every time you shoot and you lose if you reach 0 or take 5 damages. You can get vigor back by bukkaking shooting the birds. I don't know what the endurance (体力) is for, though.
Her kimono has five layers and one is removed every time you find her, with a bamboo being added each time. This is one of the two endings you get when you undress her completely. You must date her during a certain amount of unsafe days to impregnate her. If you don't, you get a regular sex CG. The safe/unsafe days must be linked to the calendar but I don't know how that works exactly (I just waited until the "red days" were over, which I assume are the menstruation period, but I got one "unsafe date" so I am not sure).

The four illustrations are quite beautiful for that time.

Edit: I assume you know about the The Tale of the Bamboo Cutter.Last modified on 2021-03-10 at 02:44
#686 by beliar
2021-03-08 at 17:53
< report >
Wtf
tiaf (this is a fuck)...

I find you to have a very restricted view of history and what a database could and should do
Yes, I do, but that's not a bad thing. Someone needs to be the bad guy that pulls the reins, so that vndb does not become a dumping ground for adventure games and RPGs.

I have read your whole rant, but there is one point I strongly disagree with and that is "allow all adventure games without criteria". I personally would rather throw out all the games prior to 1990, than add every adventure game. Because if there is no standard, than every title added to a certain time period becomes useless as a data point for the Vn evolution. Not every adventure game, interactive fiction or interactive movie deserves to be here.

Sure, most of the pre-1990 games wouldn't pass the modern muster for a visual novel, but some of them try to tell a story (however primitive they are), or have mechanics that directly inspired the development of certain subgenres (your aforementioned nampa game). Sierra games literally throw you in front of your house and say "You are standing in front of your house. Do you move East, West, North, South?". No context, nothing. Then you walk around and try to solve baffling puzzles trying to achieve a positive outcome. If we allow games like this, then we might as well allow Myst and other adventure games - at least they have graphics. Some of these Sierra games don't even have graphics and are just text on a blue background! In fact, these games are already being reported to the deletion thread by others.

Sure, you might ask Yorhel to allow any game prior to 90 to be added here - after all it's his final decision, but I am in perfect agreement with Butterflygrrl. We need to establish a cut-off point what is admissible here under the Grandfather rule, and as far as I'm concerned, Sierra games surely fall beyond the cutoff point.
#687 by styr
2021-03-09 at 20:22
< report >>so that vndb does not become a dumping ground for adventure games and RPGs.

Vndb is already a dumping ground with the inclusion of 3D porn games and other low effort trash.
#688 by butterflygrrl
2021-03-09 at 20:59
< report >i don't like them but they're clearly VNs and at least you can filter out the 3d stuff with tags

But with the adventure games, how do we determine what is story-focused enough, especially with the oldest ones that are very hard to find in order to play?

I think some people are jumping on the Sierra titles immediately because they've heard of the company and played their english releases and are judging those as non-VNs rather than judging the entries that were actually added here. and i'm sure many people leave the really obscure japanese titles alone because, well, vndbreview posted about them so they must be fine!

for fairness sake, if those go there needs to be a review of a lot of those super early titles and some kind of standard established.

>Sierra games literally throw you in front of your house and say "You are standing in front of your house. Do you move East, West, North, South?". No context, nothing.

That's not really true for most of them, I don't think, but I can't say for these early ones or the japanese adaptations. especially if people are only playing them via roms, since with a lot of early games the starting context was provided in the manual and the rest of the story unfolds as you go along.

I personally would rule out later English Sierra games as definitely not VNs because walking around is the main mode of interaction and sprite animations the main method of feedback.

But looking at the screenshots for Las Vegas on Mobygames link , that looks much more like an early ADV. There's no little dude walking around trying not to fall off edges, there's a sequence of still images that you progress between with descriptive text under them. What distinguishes it from Little Princess ? That looks very similar in terms of being an adventure game with a big static image display, a text parser, and a game map to move around.

(Also it still sounds to me like the Kaguya-hime game is just a strip game and in no way a VN)
#689 by iwannarategames
2021-03-09 at 22:44
< report >A good standard for pre 1990 games we should use on this site is The Portopia Serial Murder Case. That game is virtually nothing but ADV and and inputting commands aside from a single first person dungeon crawl sequence. It also has a proper "introduction" scene before the gameplay starts like how Beliar suggested a proper VN should have. The non-Famicom versions AFAIK also use CG's.

Also delete Kaguya-hime.Last modified on 2021-03-09 at 22:47
#690 by eacil
2021-03-10 at 01:12
< report >The point I tried to make is that even if they are not story-driven adventure games or are date simulators, they were PIONEERS and their elements led to story-driven adventure games, they led to romance driven visual novels as we know them.

Let's say someone is curious enough to sort the database by date to look at the first games here:

*the Beliar bad ending: he will stumble against Portopia and be like "oh my god, this is the one who created the whole adventure game genre, the very first adventure game! Impressive!" Then he will climb the time ladder and stumble against whatever first bishoujo-romance driven game which escaped your deforestation, I don't know, Tenshi-tachi no Gogo? and think "oh my god, we owe this game the tons of crap we are drown under every month!" Impressive!"
Well, little padawan, sorry to disappoint you but you got the Beliar digest and every deduction you made is bullshit. Please stop spreading misinformation around just because you thought vndb was an authority in its field. Yeah, right, truly a disappointing database, having to scour ten other Japanese old PC databases to get a glimpse at the history of visual novels.

*the Ileca true ending: he will first find the Eliza, the Adventure, from the 60' and 70'! "wow, I didn't know that whole bunch of early text adventures/interactive fictions existed and were the foundation of the genre! It's true that to explain visual novels to people, you often use Choose Your Own Adventure type of books. This is fascinating."
Then he will find Mystery House from 1980, allegedly the first adventure game with graphics, and a whole bunch of others like them, with their own peculiarities. "Ok, Americans beat Japanese at creating graphical adventure games, I didn't know that. They were also localized in Japan just before Portopia. Did Horii Yuuji knew about them?" He will find two contenders to first Japanese eroge and bishoujo game from 1982, Night Life and Yakyuuken. "That was weird shit but you kinda already see with Night Life and the two later titles from the Strawberry Porno Game Series that porn games fit the adventure game recipe better compared to more gameplay-ish games and is probably the reason why we have so many ADV eroge compared to other genres during that time." He will find a bunch of weird bishoujo games with their own concepts, sometimes just about having a IA generated conversation with a girl, and start making his own theories about the formation of romantic visual novels.
Etc.

Your gatekeeping is just erasing history.

If we allow games like this, then we might as well allow Myst and other adventure games - at least they have graphics.
Bad faith argument. Myst is from 1993 and I believe we shouldn't find real time 3D in the stratum I am defending. What we can discuss is where we put the stopper as to not allow too modern, not too primitive games. I chose 1989 included instead of 1990 because this way we won't have Monkey Island that too many people know about. But that's pretty much all I can think of.

In fact, these games are already being reported to the deletion thread by others.
Another bad faith argument. One person reported a game after reading this thread and he edited his post by saying "Nevermind it's a VN" after Butterflygrrl said it qualify!

I kinda understand your fear of having people reporting those games they don't give a fuck about, or using them to include modern interactive fictions, etc.
I have a proposal: you use tags to highlight their special status. If possible, you lock them at 3.
You create:
1964-1982: Text Adventures
1980-1989: Early Adventure Games and Others

You write in the definition that those games should NOT be taken as examples for inclusion on other time periods.
In fact, you could create a Borderline Games tag for the d15#3 game list and solve another long-lasting problem!

If this is not enough, we can ask Yorhel to make those tags trigger a discreet warning directly on their VN pages about how those games are exceptions. Probably just above the report button.


since with a lot of early games the starting context was provided in the manual and the rest of the story unfolds as you go along
This is 100% true. With lost manuals, some games are really hard to play and you have to find what they are about on the internet.

(Also it still sounds to me like the Kaguya-hime game is just a strip game and in no way a VN)
You appear to have missed my answer.Last modified on 2021-03-10 at 04:28
#691 by iwannarategames
2021-03-10 at 14:30
< report >Ok after looking at all of the Sierra games that got added, I can confirmed that all use ADV in a similar fashion to Portopia or Little Princess. They should be kept.

That's why I ask for games <1990 to allow all adventure games without criteria
No, they should only be added if:

1. They're Japanese or had a Japanese release back in the day.
2. They use ADV or NVL presentation.

As poorly defined of a genre VN's tend to be, the consensus agrees that VN's are defined by their presentation styles, an example being all of the n00bs thinking random JRPG's are VN's and trying to add them to the DB because of said presentation. No one is going to look at Maniac Mansion and go "This is totally a VN!" because there is literally no resemblance whatsoever.

They look far more relevant than something like Lolita: Yakyuuken (does that have any story in it at all? It looks like it's just stripping)
I saw a Youtube video of it and there is literally no story whatsoever. It's a pure stripping game.

link
#692 by beliar
2021-03-10 at 15:21
< report >
What we can discuss is where we put the stopper as to not allow too modern, not too primitive games. I chose 1989 included instead of 1990 because this way we won't have Monkey Island that too many people know about. But that's pretty much all I can think of.
The fact that you exclude Monkey Island based on the year, rather than any sort of features of the game itself, speaks loads about your "proposal".

In no way, shape or form, even early adventure games like Monkey Have any characteristics of Vns, and shouldn't be added regardless of when they were released. In fact, iwannarategames proposal to make the country and the presentation the cutoff point is much more sane, but it has problems too. Despite ostensibly having the ADV presentation, the early Sierra games are the precursors of point and click adventures and not VNs, and shouldn't be part of the VN history. The "go west, east, north, south" mechanic eventually evolved into free walking, as can be seen in the aforementioned Monkey Island, and the parser evolved into the onscreen commands, like "Use, pick up, open and etc."

Moreover, the VNs have two main elements, visual and novel. If there are no visuals, there is no VN. So early text based adventure games are automatically out, with extreme prejudice. We have no obligation to show the complete adventure game history. If that interests you so greatly, you can always make a website that is specifically dedicated to the ADV history of 1960-1990. I'm sure a lot of people would appreciate that, but most of those games have no bearing on the VN genre, and in fact evolved on a different fork, becoming modern IFs, and we don't allow IFs in the DB.

I saw a Youtube video of it and there is literally no story whatsoever. It's a pure stripping game.
Indeed, I'm sure even Eacil won't be so stubborn as to advocate for its survival, so I'll remove the game.Last modified on 2021-03-10 at 15:22
#693 by iwannarategames
2021-03-10 at 16:05
< report >Ok I fought a Youtube video of Spy Dai Sakusen

link

I can't tell if this counts...Last modified on 2021-03-10 at 16:09
#694 by thereservoir
2021-03-11 at 03:41
< report >Kanjou o Nakushita Shoujo to Haibyouin Kara no Dasshutsu is definitely not a VN. It's a sidescrolling platformer kinda thing with brief ADV sections.

See the DLsite page.
#695 by butterflygrrl
2021-03-12 at 18:22
< report >One that probably needs deleting - Bagubee

It's apparently just strip Breakout.

The linked VNDB review even says "This is NOT a visual novel. It has zero text apart of description of each girl blood type etc."
#696 by beliar
2021-03-12 at 20:12
< report >
Ok I fought a Youtube video of Spy Dai Sakusen

link

I can't tell if this counts...
Doesn't look like it counts. Seems to be an RPG/adventure hybrid. You move around, use items (ex. guns) on enemies, etc. Doesn't seem to have any story parts, apart from the intro, which has the usual cassette recorder intro for MI.
Despite Eacil adding the title, I'll probably have to remove it.

Kanjou o Nakushita Shoujo to Haibyouin Kara no Dasshutsu is definitely not a VN. It's a sidescrolling platformer kinda thing with brief ADV sections.
While it IS a sidescroller, it has quite a lot of story segments. It has barely if any narration, but gameplay to story is about 50/50. I'm on a fence about it: link link link link. Anyone has any thoughts?
#697 by jazz957
2021-03-12 at 21:55
< report >Someone added the Layton games, but I don't think those are VNs. I've only played the first but I think they're almost entirely about solving puzzles.
#698 by butterflygrrl
2021-03-12 at 22:07
< report >same, though i think i played a small amount of another one in the series as well. but yeah, very much about solving isolated puzzles, little bit of story to pull it together.
#699 by iwannarategames
2021-03-13 at 01:34
< report >
I'm on a fence

When in doubt, delete. It only has 50/50 story and there's no narration apparently.Last modified on 2021-03-13 at 01:37
#700 by eacil
2021-03-13 at 01:55
< report >
The fact that you exclude Monkey Island based on the year, rather than any sort of features of the game itself, speaks loads about your "proposal".
I don't mind having point & click being removed as I said "put limits to the too modern" and pure point & click games are a different fork, but ironically, the Famicom port of Portopia uses a point & click mode to search items on a CG.

In fact, iwannarategames proposal to make the country and the presentation the cutoff point is much more sane, but it has problems too.
It's not sane, it's terrible.

I don't remember vndb doing Asian favoritism. I don't know how Americans influenced Japanese but you are denying them the right to have their own "VN" evolution. Meaning you will have to remove Zork Quest even though Minah added it, saying "Pure visual novel, with ADV-style narration and no gameplay besides choices."

When you have text in your game, you are bound to have some textbox somewhere. Didn't you agree with me that the presentation rule had to be reworked because ADV and NVL were too restrictive and that text was all that mattered??

Despite ostensibly having the ADV presentation, the early Sierra games are the precursors of point and click adventures and not VNs, and shouldn't be part of the VN history. The "go west, east, north, south" mechanic eventually evolved into free walking, as can be seen in the aforementioned Monkey Island, and the parser evolved into the onscreen commands, like "Use, pick up, open and etc."
Yeah, you really know what you are talking about. A lot of early JAPANESE games use CARDINAL POINTS or DIRECTIONS to navigate. Most of them use a parser too that evolved eventually into preset commands. Never heard of JAPANESE games using MOVE/LOOK/TALK/ETC interface like... Yuno? I didn't play it but someone told me it even has... AN INVENTORY!
There is no big qualitative difference between Mystery House and Portopia. Portopia is just much more sophisticated. It is not even the norm as Portopia makes you give orders to your subordinate. It also uses locations instead of directions. Something like Zarth is all about finding objects and where to use them while moving with E/W/N/S.

I'm sure a lot of people would appreciate that, but most of those games have no bearing on the VN genre, and in fact evolved on a different fork, becoming modern IFs, and we don't allow IFs in the DB.
Yeah, I did imply to add modern interactive fictions... NOT. You apparently can't see that text adventures are adventure games without graphics? That applying graphics to a text adventure just made it into Mystery House and Portopia? You can't see the relation between Choose Your Own Adventure books, text adventures and visual novels?

Rip the whole "history of 1960-1990" because Beliar said most of them have "no bearing on the VN genre" because visual novels came out of my ass in 1992 I guess with Otogirisou. Like a flower.

Yeah, a genre can only evolve into another single genre. Sierra made point & click starting from Mystery House and the Japanese made visual novels with... the Japanese Micro Cabin Mystery House? Or Portopia which is all about finding objects and suspects, but somehow not in a puzzle kind of way? Or more regular adventure games from that era with cardinal points but which somehow didn't evolve into free walking but locations? Wew.

We have no obligation to show the complete adventure game history.
You decided that. We have no obligation to erase the complete visual novel evolution.

I interpreted the grandfather rule as allowing the "history of vn" to be represented on vndb despite not being vn but you refuse to add anything that is not closely related to your warped vision of VN. I might have been ambitious when asking for the addition of text adventures but saying that "most of those games have no bearing on the VN genre" is complete bullshit.
Why are you not removing Yuno and all the games from the 90' then? They are constantly interrupted with choices/commands. That must be annoying. Quick or they will mutate into point & click!!!Last modified on 2021-03-13 at 08:40