Game inclusion in the DB

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#726 by iwannarategames
2021-04-25 at 00:51
< report >I know they're not long, the problem is that they happen too frequently and constantly interrupt the narrative.
Most of the reading doesn't even last 2 minutes before you have to do a puzzle or have to investigate.

d2#1
The storytelling segments should continue uninterrupted for a significant amount of time. The game should refrain from interrupting the reading and prompting the player to interact with the environment too frequently, lest the interactive elements overshadow the novel-like narrative. Depending on the presentation and the narrative techniques, some visual novels can be more prone to interrupt the narrative than others. Ultimately, if a game belongs in the database will be determined by examining the game as a whole, rather than just the sum of its parts.
Last modified on 2021-04-25 at 02:48
#727 by ninius
2021-04-25 at 11:07
< report >Well I guess this is a matter of opinion and personal reading pace in this case, because I think the main dialogues last more than 2 minutes without interruption... There are long enough uninterrupted dialogue IMO but I guess I'm wrong. It's sad if this is gonna be removed and a game like Orwell stays.
#728 by beliar
2021-04-25 at 12:09
< report >I'll check the game as soon as I have a chance, guys.

That said, I haven't ruled on Orwell in a definitive manner. I saw a short clip of the game and put it on the backburner. No one else chimed in with their opinion about it, and it ended somewhat in limbo. I've been meaning to get back and check it more in depth, but always put it off...
#729 by iwannarategames
2021-04-25 at 18:11
< report >link

Orwell is weird, and I don't really think it belongs. The dialogues from Symes definitely counts as ADV, he only talks once or twice before you have to basically investigate, but in an epistolary fashion.

I think it's safe to say from that description to say Orwell isn't a VN.
#730 by lunaterra
2021-04-25 at 19:24
< report >On a tangentially related note, thoughts about including Orwell's Animal Farm? The game by Nerial, not the book. link
#731 by iwannarategames
2021-04-25 at 20:09
< report >
On a tangentially related note, thoughts about including Orwell's Animal Farm? The game by Nerial, not the book. link
That game is confusing. There is narrated ADV scenes but the game can allow you click on stuff in the background which can cause different texts. I can't tell if that is gameplay or choices since the description of the video establishes it has multiple endings.

Anyways Beliar I think it's we've basically established Orwell: Keeping an Eye On You and Murder by Numbers aren't VN's at this point. You should probably delete them unless you feel looking into it more.
#732 by ninius
2021-04-25 at 21:24
< report >@iwannarategames, Let Beliar look into Murder by Numbers. No need for hasty deletions.
#733 by butterflygrrl
2021-04-25 at 21:38
< report >how has it been "basically established" when you're the only person who's voiced an opinion haha

I haven't played Orwell and am going off just a quick look. It's clearly a narrative game (which doesn't necessarily mean VN obviously, just saying, it doesn't seem to be from a wildly different genre). We do, again, have a tag for epistolary fiction, one which I always forget exists when I run into games in that style. i've definitely seen more chinese and japanese vn works coming out lately making heavy use of chatlog format instead of oldschool ADV.

What about it makes it clearly not a VN to you? Too much time being spent trying to figure out where to look for information vs reading?Last modified on 2021-04-25 at 21:41
#734 by beliar
2021-04-25 at 21:42
< report >
On a tangentially related note, thoughts about including Orwell's Animal Farm? The game by Nerial, not the book. link
Somewhat of an edge case. It has some narration, and clicking animals basically serves as selecting choices here. So, that's a point for it being a VN. However, as the time passes, the game becomes more game-y, with relatively short dialogues, followed by selecting a choice how to run the farm.

However, all in all, I don't think I have strenuous objections for including it.

No need for hasty deletions.
Indeed, no need to rush. I'll try to look at them tomorrow.
#735 by iwannarategames
2021-04-25 at 22:38
< report >
We do, again, have a tag for epistolary fiction, one which I always forget exists when I run into games in that style. i've definitely seen more chinese and japanese vn works coming out lately making heavy use of chatlog format instead of oldschool ADV.

What about it makes it clearly not a VN to you? Too much time being spent trying to figure out where to look for information vs reading?
For the record, my problem has nothing to do with the OS Simulation format.

The problem is that Orwell is small on segments that are pure reading. There is some ADV style dialogues as I mentioned earlier, but it's only 1 or 2 lines after clicking on some stuff and investigating. There are few proper "segments" where you just read through the story. If I had to compare Orwell to anything, I'd say it's similiar to the dialogue in the escape room segments in 999 and Virtue's Last Reward. Yes, it's vn style text and yes, it's important to the story, but it's wrapped inside what is ultimately a "gameplay segment". Not a "read the story" one.
#736 by beliar
2021-04-26 at 19:30
< report >Regarding Murder by Numbers: The game has basically no narration and has some gameplay, like puzzle solving, and presenting evidence to the suspects.

However, I don't think the gameplay segments interrupt the reading sections too much. The dialogue segments aren't as short as iwannarategames considers them to be, and the puzzles can be basically autosolved - if you set the difficulty to Easy and drag the mouse through the image, every nonogram can be solved in less than ten seconds.

Imho, talking to the characters and asking them questions plays a much larger part than the nonograms.

Overall, it's a bit of an edge case mainly due to the lack of narration, but I don't think there is a strong case for deletion.

I'll try to check Orwell tomorrow.
#737 by styr
2021-04-26 at 21:09
< report >hey how come CYOA novels arent in vndb?!?
#738 by iwannarategames
2021-04-26 at 21:44
< report >*sniff*

I'm sorry wallet...

I wasn't able to avenge you...
#739 by beliar
2021-04-26 at 22:26
< report >
hey how come CYOA novels arent in vndb?!?
In case this is a serious question, there is a difference between interactive fiction and visual novels.
CYOAs (I assume you mean the digital ones and not paperbacks) usually don't even have visuals, and when they do have them, they lack the VN format - clearly represented visual blocks for text and graphics. At best they look like illustrated novels, where the text is interrupted by occasional images.
Frankly, there are so many interactive novels out there (and more and more published in Twine each day), that they would need their own database to correctly represent them.
#740 by styr
2021-04-26 at 22:31
< report >what if the CYOA is on renpy?
#741 by beliar
2021-04-26 at 22:36
< report >Could you give an example? Not sure how that looks.
#742 by butterflygrrl
2021-04-26 at 23:34
< report >Do you mean like The Ghost Of You? (It's in renpy but it's more-or-less pure text except for some tiny illustrated borders)

I like the game but you can't really call it a visual novel.
#743 by asgryffynn
2021-05-02 at 06:40
< report >Which reminds me, I haven't heard back on Sisters' Royale. However, how on God's Green Earth are Fate/Extella AND BlazBlue visual novels but Conception II is not?
#744 by iwannarategames
2021-05-02 at 10:59
< report >What's Conception 2?
#745 by lordnight
2021-05-02 at 11:02
< report >Conception 2
#746 by iwannarategames
2021-05-02 at 13:06
< report >I looked at a gameplay video and it just seems to be pure dialogue like most JRPGs.
#747 by asgryffynn
2021-05-03 at 05:43
< report >I was the only one who played through it before dropping it I guess, but there were definitely choices and most of the time was within the dialogue with the heroines or the laboratory or the creepy star children temple. Almost nothing involved gameplay other than very empty emptying a procedurally generated dungeon off monsters.
#748 by tremmy
2021-05-03 at 06:10
< report >I've played the 3DS version and I'd compare it to something like Stella Glow in regards to dialogue and choices and character events.
#749 by beliar
2021-05-03 at 21:52
< report >
Which reminds me, I haven't heard back on Sisters' Royale.
I actually did answer regarding Sisters Royale: t7442.712

However, how on God's Green Earth are Fate/Extella AND BlazBlue visual novels but Conception II is not?
Fate/Extella has already been brought up like five times already, so it's almost certainly not a VN, but I want to be sure. I'll check in on that one of the days. However, BlazBlue by all accounts, does have a VN mode. I haven't checked, but multiple people have stated this.

From t2108.3745:
I don't think that Baby Making Time is a visual novel.
Indeed, I don't think so either and it was removed.

Orwell is weird, and I don't really think it belongs.
I have played through 2 of Orwell's cases, and frankly I didn't find something egregious that would beg for its removal. When it comes to that game, you cannot really talk about traditional VN presentations, but as an epistolary fiction it works. You basically spend all the time reading various documents and transcripts, and load some passages of interest to cross-reference into the profile. I would barely call that gameplay. And well, when it comes to epistolary storytelling, some interruptions are a given, as you switch between the documents.

So, I suppose I'm okay for it to stay.
#750 by butterflygrrl
2021-05-07 at 13:26
< report >Otoko no Ko o Nade Mawasou! - this currently has a listing but it doesn't look like it's actually a VN. I can't see a working download link to check for sure, but the description sounds like it's just a touching-simulator. The screenshots are all just interface, not dialog.Last modified on 2021-05-07 at 13:27