Game inclusion in the DB

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#876 by historyeraser
2021-10-28 at 01:11
< report >I'm very curious if Sound Novel Tsukuru should be here. It just seems like an engine for you to make VNs, not an actual VN itself. It would be like adding RPGMaker as a game to an RPG database. Does it come packaged with some pre-made VNs or something?
#877 by Ileca
2021-10-28 at 01:42
< report >
The game comes with a previously created graphic novel about exploring an old house.
Literally in the description.
Sample game is called サウンドノベル劇場 夏の樹に棲む妖精(ニンフ). This should probably be the name of the entry.

The second entry has three common sample games + 1 per console for a total of five.Last modified on 2021-10-28 at 02:21
#878 by PortaTerzo
2021-12-02 at 15:13
< report >Curious that Long Live the Queen was removed because "it is primarily a raising simulator", so VN cannot be primarily a simulator? I guess we better start purging the dating simulators, because they might lean too much into the simulation aspect. Or do dating simulators just get an exception in that regard?

I'm genuinely curious, about the criteria, like what would the creators have to change/add to be qualified as a VN? Would Long Live the Queen qualify as a VN if they added 1-hour of kinetic novel content before the raising sim aspect even appears?Last modified on 2021-12-02 at 15:14
#879 by cubky
2021-12-02 at 16:09
< report >#878 d2#1
#880 by PortaTerzo
2021-12-02 at 18:32
< report >#879
That's informing. Let's see if I got this right:
In Long Live the Queen, each day you pick lessons to improve your stats, and your stat decides what happens after the lesson.
Therefore if the attendance of the lessons would be played out (where you talk to the teacher) instead of being offscreen, it would be considered VN? Because it would be indistinguishable from dating sims where you choose which place to visit every day?Last modified on 2021-12-02 at 18:33
#881 by butterflygrrl
2021-12-02 at 19:16
< report >As I understand it, it was ruled out because the story segments between activities are not very long, so the amount of uninterrupted reading fails to give a fully VN-like feeling and makes it come across as more of a "sim date" or a pure raising sim, where the primary gameplay is all about boosting stats and the story is just a dressing on top.

I don't think that totally fits for Long Live The Queen because it is a very story-based game with zero randomness, unlike your average raising sim where all that matters is what you've gotten your stats to by the end of the game. A pure sim, you have to get through a little bit of story in order to get back to the main action of stat-raising. Long Live The Queen is more the other way around, you have to get through a little stat-raising in order to get back to the story. The game is still playable even if you use cheats to put all your stats to 100 from the beginning, because the story is the main gameplay, not the stats.

However, it's true that the story segments are short, so is it really a visual "novel", that's the question.
#882 by PortaTerzo
2021-12-02 at 19:38
< report >#881 What truly is short? Is 1,000 words between raising sim? What about 2,000? 3,000?
#883 by historyeraser
2021-12-02 at 21:45
< report >Bruh, the scenes in LTTQ are 1-2 minutes long. Does that explain it for you?Last modified on 2021-12-02 at 22:21
#884 by tonaki
2021-12-25 at 11:59
< report >Cambrian QTS ~Kaseki ni nattemo~
Because someone didn't add a release it was removed??
I was about to add the game but found out it has a deleted entry even though it's a vn.
#885 by NaioHoras
2021-12-25 at 12:07
< report >restored. you can add the release now.Last modified on 2021-12-25 at 12:08
#886 by tonaki
2021-12-25 at 12:54
< report >Done.
#887 by himesamaa
2022-01-24 at 04:43
< report >Hello, I'd like to ask if Hypnospace Outlaw was included on VNDB before, because I believe I saw a page for it a few times. I think it has a place here, especially since we have similar games (e.g. Digital: A Love Story, Analogue, Emily Is Away, Secret Little Haven and You Must Be 18 Or Older To Enter).

Hypnospace *is* a point and click adventure game, but the gameplay is inconsequential. You are required to read and pay attention to what you're doing.

I'd also like to know whether Nene Interactive Suicide fits the criteria or not. Because in my opinion, it's not even a proper game, much less a visual novel.Last modified on 2022-01-25 at 00:09
#888 by Ileca
2022-01-24 at 05:10
< report >Hypnospace Outlaw

About Nene Interactive Suicide. As much as I want to delete this trash, it has no gameplay, bubbles, you click to move the text forward. It matches the rules. Too bad.

Anyway, read d2#1 next time.
#889 by himesamaa
2022-01-24 at 19:09
< report >I see, thanks for linking to the page I mentioned.
Hypnospace has a linear plot, by the way. Even though you browse a fictional version of the Internet in it, that is only an excuse to experience the story. It's "integrated" with the 'gameplay' which is very basic. You browse sites to learn more about the narrative.
It's similar to Digital: A Love Story, Emily Is Away <3 and Orwell: Keeping an Eye On You and it fits in the tag Interactive Adventure Game, in my opinion.
I did read the game inclusion rules multiple times, but there are entries that aren't traditional VNs and are here. Not to mention that I've seen multiple sex simulators that barely meet the criteria because they have a 30-min excuse plot presented in ADV, an example is Polygon Love 2.
So I was wondering...

As for Nene Interactive Suicide, it seems like it does meet the criteria after all, even though I personally don't consider it to be a VN/game, and in my view it allows for other Flash works to be included on the database, even though it's been said before that they're not permitted. I understand that I'm not the owner or a moderator, though.

EDIT: I also agree with certain posters that Long Live The Queen is kind of a hybrid, and I remember that back when it came out, everyone was discussing it on r/visualnovels. I know this is controversial, however.Last modified on 2022-01-25 at 05:32
#890 by palas
2022-02-09 at 02:36
< report >Saying gameplay is inconsequential to Hypnospace Outlaw is absurd. Looking for material/browsing the hypnospace *is* the gameplay. It's not even like it's a choice system in disguise, and invoking the feeling of visiting old message boards is the entire point.
#891 by himesamaa
2022-02-09 at 05:32
< report >/\ I know that, Palas, and I think we are agreeing on the same thing. What I meant is that to me the "gameplay" in Hypnospace is not the same thing as say, the one in Danganronpa, 999, Phoenix Wright or other adventure games that are on here. If that makes sense? For example, in Danganronpa there are mini-games and the class trials, in Phoenix Wright there are the exploration segments and the trials in which you present evidence, and in 999 you have the puzzles. These are much more interactive than Hypnospace. At least, I would say that. The Enforcer mechanic exists, of course, but it's like in Orwell, where you cannot decide 100% on what will happen. I said before that it is almost like a choice system but that's not really accurate, so I removed that phrase a while ago. And I don't even think that there's a way to lose in Hypnospace Outlaw. The desktop customisation, music player and the joke pages are a bonus...
If I remember correctly, Beliar mentioned The Longest Journey which is a text-heavy traditional point and click game (except for the sequels). It's got puzzles like any other point 'n' click from that era. TLJ is one of my favs, but I agree with him: I would also never consider that a visual novel, and I would never dream of including it on VNDB. Although it seems like there is a Russian 'demake' of it that is similar to a VN, I found it here. There is a difference between the 'gameplay' in Hypnospace and other adventure games.

As I mentioned multiple times before, yes - the whole point of Hypnospace is to browse message boards and internet pages, just like in Emily Is Away, Digital, Orwell, etc. I don't believe that this should exclude the game from the database, as you have to read what's written on the websites to learn about the story and finish it. Being an Enforcer is an excuse to visit these webpages. That's what I meant. You're obliged to do that just so you can experience the plot, which is linear and has a beginning, middle and end (epilogue). It's not just a 90s internet simulator, the player has an actual objective, you don't visit these websites just for funsies as was implied before in certain posts. Hypnospace reminds me of Cosmology of Kyoto, which is on here (and deserves to be). They're both adventure games that have a story told in an experimental manner, and the gameplay (if it can be called that) functions more as a way to advance the plot rather than being a distraction. It's implemented organically. Both games' visual styles are very interesting and unique and they make me feel like I entered another dimension.

Meanwhile, on VNDB, you can find literal sex simulators with dialogue that lasts 30 minutes, and where the focus is on primitive gameplay that is just like "move the mouse up and down to have sex with this girl". There are even full-on RPGs on here (not that I'm complaining about that, it was because of this DB that I found out about certain titles like Kamidori).
So why was Hypnospace removed when similar titles are up? I don't think it needed to be nuked from the DB. And personally I'm happy that we have interactive movies, raising/dating sims, etc. I wanted to find more of those.Last modified on 2022-02-09 at 23:34
#892 by strayalive
2022-02-14 at 04:40
< report >I saw someone added The Fairy Tale of Holy Knight Ricca and helped fill out the listing a bit but it is a hybrid so I figured I'd make sure the listing can stay before I fill out the listing further. Its one of the hottest doujin releases on DLsite, a hack & slash type game that does feature long narrated cutscenes (predominantly ryona) in ADV format. If nothing else its novel segments are a nice example of what a fully 3D VN in Unity could look like.
#893 by qpo
2022-02-14 at 07:28
< report >I noticed there's a Text Parser tag, which applied to some entirely parser-based interactive fiction with graphics, such as works of Falcom and Infocom. Does it mean purely parser-based games can be included? If so, is it okay to add mordern graphical parser IF? (e.g. Mushroom Hunt)Last modified on 2022-02-14 at 07:43
#894 by Ezezin
2022-02-14 at 15:23
< report >I think most interactive fiction/adventure games (not hybrids) are here because of the grandfather clause, not because they are considered visual novels. Personally, I wouldn't add Mushroom Hunt to the db (t7442.739).Last modified on 2022-02-14 at 15:27
#895 by beliar
2022-02-14 at 15:43
< report >
I think most interactive fiction/adventure games (not hybrids) are here because of the grandfather clause, not because they are considered visual novels.
True. Most of the modern interactive adventure games with parser should not be considered Vns. That said, there might be some that do qualify, but I don't personally think "Mushroom Hunt: is one.

@ Ezezin: My post you linked referred to interactive novels, which is a different subgenre, but the sentiment is the same.
#896 by qpo
2022-02-14 at 17:30
< report >There're parser games released in recent years like Don't Make Love and ナツノカナタ (both having clickable actions/keywords) get included in the DB. Is there a clearer line between what can be included and what can't? (For another example: how about Present Quest, a more narrative-heavy game with anime/VN-style art?)

MADNESS OF THE COASTAL STRUCTURE is another game I'm unsure about. It's a choice-based Ren'Py game, with barely any graphics.

繰り返しの世界 is a questionable inclusion. It's a NVL-style game with no graphics at all. (What the dev claims to be an "illustration" on DLsite page is the title screen with nothing other than logo and menu. link)Last modified on 2022-02-14 at 18:05
#897 by beliar
2022-02-14 at 18:04
< report >If what I see regarding Kurikaeshi no Sekai on DLsite is all there is regarding this game, it definitely shouldn't be here. Confirm it's all just text on a black background and I'll delete it.
Basically the same with link - it doesn't have any significant graphics to be called a visual novel.
Natsuno Kanata to me fails at VN structure. It displays a single window, where you scroll the text by inputting parser commands. VNs usually have a single picture box, and a single text box. The picture box is not necessarily advanced each time, but the text box is always advanced. This a much looser structure, even without taking fucking parser into account. Not sure I would count it a VN.
Don't Make Love is weird. It preserves a VN structure of a single text unit advancing every time, but you have to type in every.single.sentence!!!!! Not sure how to react to that. It's like an AI powered conversation simulator.
#898 by butterflygrrl
2022-02-14 at 19:00
< report >Doki Doki Ragnarok

I'm definitely not saying "this should be removed", I'm saying someone should take a closer look. It is definitely completely text-based but it also, at least in what I've played, does not really feel 'novel' like. You progress from target to target and do a little... narrative combat, I guess? You pick from a list of dialog options, it does a varying amount of damage to the target, after a few rounds you either defeat the target and progress to the next or you don't and you have to start the combat again.

They describe it as a visual novel and as a dating sim but so far all I've seen is those combat screens, with your character on one side and your current target on the other. However, I'm not very far into the game and the achievements suggest that there may be some more complex interactions later.

So, as I said, not "remove this", just "this is unusual, take a look".
#899 by qpo
2022-02-14 at 21:39
< report >@897 I read Kurikaeshi no Sekai thoroughly and didn't see any graphics. Please delete it.

Thanks for the replies. I also discovered the discussion in t7442/28. There're four 80s parser games without a Japanese release in VNDB now (link), which seem impossible to have an influence on VN, should they get deleted?
#900 by beliar
2022-02-14 at 21:47
< report >Ugh. Parser games weird me out, because I lack strong arguments to kick them out, but they never feel like VNs. I would say that a visual novel requires a coherent narrative. If a parser game drops you in a clearing or a house with basic commands like "go east' or "examine room", and you don't even know why you are there and what you have to do, that's not much of a novel, visual or otherwise.Last modified on 2022-02-14 at 21:48