Game inclusion in the DB

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#926 by Ileca
2022-04-01 at 00:05
< report >Wow, so badly programmed. The picture fits my screen's width and doesn't keep the aspect ratio.
Anyway, if I understood right (I never played any "Twine game"), it's a game with text and sometimes pictures above the text (quite often, actually). I don't see a problem with its inclusion. Now, I am not the chief excluder.Last modified on 2022-04-01 at 00:09
#927 by Jazz957
2022-04-09 at 19:49
< report >Someone should probably check u207952's additions, he's been adding a lot that seem like they might not be VNs.Last modified on 2022-04-09 at 19:50
#928 by beliar
2022-04-11 at 19:20
< report >t7442.922: I'm not sure it counts. Seems to me it's more of an investigation game, as through trial and error you try to piece together the patient's mystery. But of course all parsers have some trial and error. Can you pause the game during video sequences or do they play completely automatically? I looked a bit at link, and I'm not that convinced it fits here.

t7442.925: Well, majority of Twine games are interactive novels, i.e. illustrated novels with choices. There is usually a lot of text interspersed with illustrations and they wholly lack the VN structure: the consistent window with images and text. This game is slightly different as it's a single image accompanied by text, which is closer to the Vn structure, however there are plenty of pages only with text and no illustrations. Still, I'm not super objecting to its presence here.

t7442.917: Does not look very chatty. Watched about 10 minutes (link) and it plays pretty much like an early point'n'click game. I'm not convinced it belongs here.

t7442.927: I deleted some of his additions I was pretty sure are not VNs.Last modified on 2022-04-11 at 19:25
#929 by usagi
2022-04-13 at 19:20
< report >@928
Seems to me it's more of an investigation game, as through trial and error you try to piece together the patient's mystery. But of course all parsers have some trial and error.
And what's wrong exactly with investigation aspect in relation to visual novels? The investigation is natural for detective genre, is it not? Still, it's more psychological horror rather than detective - especially towards the end.
Can you pause the game during video sequences or do they play completely automatically?

You can't pause - but they are rather short, and all sequences can be replayed at any time - as many times as you want - just during interrogation process. There is no need to exit to title screen for that. And I wouldn't call them automatic - what video sequence is shown depends on player questions and answers only - they are not forced on you except short movie at the start of each chapter. Also, I wouldn't call the game kinetic as well - there are lot of endings depending on how exactly player interacted with people, what questions he asked or NOT asked, how he answered on patients questions, how much he believes to what they said, who was the culprit (they are generated randomly at the start of the game btw) etc.
I looked a bit at link, and I'm not that convinced it fits here.
I am not sure myself - hence I am asking ))Last modified on 2022-04-15 at 21:27
#930 by beliar
2022-04-15 at 21:12
< report >The following game link has been discussed before, a long time ago, but no decision was reached. I rediscovered it recently and gave it a whirl. Imho, it seems it fits our guidelines pretty well; what do the others think?

P.S. I'll admit I have a sort of sadistic glee imagining Yorhel pulling his hair trying to come up with a flag for the Inuktitut language. :-)))))
#931 by Ileca
2022-04-15 at 21:28
< report >The beauty of utf8, I can render ᓱᑰᑉ ᐊᑖᓂ ᓱᓈᓂ no problem.
Let's find VN with harder flags to include.
Are there some VN written entirely in Nandorin?
#932 by Lud
2022-05-19 at 17:30
< report >Not sure if this is the right thread to ask but it is the one that made the most sense, are the Monster Prom series included in the DB? I wasn't able to find them so I was unsure if they were not added or simply deleted, I started replaying both games and I wanted to add tags and such and also a page for the third game that is going to come out this year, from my experience they play like pretty standard VNs outside of the RNG aspect of events and routes and the stat gimmick.
#933 by cubky
2022-05-19 at 17:52
< report >#932 t7442.534
#934 by Lud
2022-05-19 at 18:06
< report >@933 Oh that's a while ago, I can understand the reasoning though the games do have plot via the "secret ending" system, I'd argue in favor of it being a VN since it fits pretty much all the criteria described in the FAQ but the decision is not up to me but up to the mods/admins so yeah.
#935 by niks
2022-05-26 at 03:39
< report >Is this a VN link? Should it be added to the DB?
#936 by NaioHoras
2022-05-26 at 04:45
< report >looking at link, I would say no. while you spent most of the time reading, it has no narration at all and you keep getting interrupted by choices and gameplay.Last modified on 2022-05-26 at 04:54
#937 by Ninius
2022-05-26 at 13:08
< report >Lack of narration doesn't mean that it isn't a vn. We have Dialogue Based after all.
#938 by NaioHoras
2022-05-26 at 13:19
< report >that only applies to pure VN... d2#1 t7442.1Last modified on 2022-05-26 at 13:28
#939 by sorendipitous
2022-05-31 at 19:44
< report >I'm not sure if it has been brought up in this thread already, but I'd like to bring World's End Club to people's attention due to its status as an action platformer with text boxes to tell its story.
#940 by delusano
2022-06-23 at 15:28
< report >Should this link be added? It seems like a VN to me.
#941 by Ezezin
2022-06-23 at 15:48
< report >Did a quick play. Dating sim with a few point and click elements with some long uninterrupted visual novel segments. I think it can be added.Last modified on 2022-06-23 at 15:52
#942 by wertville
2022-06-25 at 01:21
< report >Someone on reddit has made the argument that doHna:doHna -Issho ni Warui Koto o Shiyou- doesn't fit the hybrid criteria. Their arguments are that A) The game doesn't have a consistent narration, and B) The game has a significantly higher gameplay:story ratio than 50% and C) The story segments do not go on uninterrupted for long periods.

I've only played a little of the game, but I do remember that there was only narration in the H-scenes. It didn't feel like the other Alicesoft games which were at least narration-light for the bulk of the game. I watched a bit of a let's play as a refresher, and one thing that stood out to me was that even this non-H cg scene was completely void of any language describing it: link

Sorry to drop a big, controversial title here all of a sudden, but I figured it was at least worth bringing it up in order to hopefully dispel the myth that the mods are secretly a cabal of Alicesoft simps. Also I have no idea why people seem to think the Borderline Games list is a "Special Exception" list instead of a "Been discussed to death" list. Maybe some verbiage could be updated here to clarify?
#943 by harleyquin
2022-06-25 at 06:54
< report >
Someone on reddit has made the argument that doHna:doHna -Issho ni Warui Koto o Shiyou- doesn't fit the hybrid criteria. Their arguments are that A) The game doesn't have a consistent narration, and B) The game has a significantly higher gameplay:story ratio than 50% and C) The story segments do not go on uninterrupted for long periods.

I've only played a little of the game, but I do remember that there was only narration in the H-scenes. It didn't feel like the other Alicesoft games which were at least narration-light for the bulk of the game. I watched a bit of a let's play as a refresher, and one thing that stood out to me was that even this non-H cg scene was completely void of any language describing it: link

Sorry to drop a big, controversial title here all of a sudden, but I figured it was at least worth bringing it up in order to hopefully dispel the myth that the mods are secretly a cabal of Alicesoft simps. Also I have no idea why people seem to think the Borderline Games list is a "Special Exception" list instead of a "Been discussed to death" list. Maybe some verbiage could be updated here to clarify?

A) There is a story, but players need to stop grinding previous stages and actually progress through the dungeons. Speed runners will spend less time playing and more time moving through the story gears. As far as I'm concerned, the game only drops the narrative if players are too busy levelling up and grinding for equipment.

B) Again, speed runners will beg to differ. Also, New Game Plus allows for players to keep levels and skills so grinding is less of an issue and more time is spent on the story. There are choices as well, which may or may not lead players to making different saves to see how a different branch develops.

C) No argument here, but most hybrids are like this. Most of the recent Eushully games will have a long story segment after beating a boss, entering a dungeon for the first time etc. and then players are left with the gameplay until the next milestone is passed.
#944 by wertville
2022-06-26 at 17:17
< report >#943
It looks like you're quite familiar with the game, so I'll trust you when you say the gameplay:story ratio is standard for hybrids.

However, I think you're misunderstanding point A). The argument isn't that there is no narrative, but that there's no narration, non-dialogue text that describes scenes, thoughts and actions. According to the guidelines:
The game consistently uses the novel narrative for telling its story. Examples include describing visuals, events, character actions or thoughts.
This point is ESSENTIAL - dialogues, no matter how extensive, are a characteristic of such game genres as RPGs, adventure games, dating simulations, etc., NOT of visual novels.
(The term "novel narrative" is used here, but my understanding is that this effectively is synonymous with narration)

Now, the H-scenes do have extensive use of non-dialogues to describe the action (as is standard for Alicesoft), but if that is sufficient for inclusion I feel that deserves a footnote in the guidelines- it's not immediately clear to me that that is a valid interpretation of "Consistent". It is only a small fraction of the story and a fraction of a fraction of the total game runtime after all.
#945 by harleyquin
2022-06-27 at 00:23
< report >
However, I think you're misunderstanding point A). The argument isn't that there is no narrative, but that there's no narration, non-dialogue text that describes scenes, thoughts and actions. According to the guidelines:
The game consistently uses the novel narrative for telling its story. Examples include describing visuals, events, character actions or thoughts.
This point is ESSENTIAL - dialogues, no matter how extensive, are a characteristic of such game genres as RPGs, adventure games, dating simulations, etc., NOT of visual novels.
(The term "novel narrative" is used here, but my understanding is that this effectively is synonymous with narration)

Since you're being pedantic, I'll break down where the "narrative" is found. I'll assume the person who argued this isn't a VN played the machine-translated English patch and isn't familiar with the Japanese language.

Visuals - No extensive paragraphs describing these, after all what you see is what you get on screen. You get a few remarks from the main party about the size of things like the final boss, the gaudiness of the cruise ship etc. This is not a character-driven VN, it's a hybrid. Lots of text on what every building and every NPC looks like to a party aiming to disrupt society through public disorder, kidnappings and wanton destruction is extraneous fluff for the developers.

Events - If you mean non-sex events, there is text for this. Progressing through the main story has segments before a dungeon is entered for the first time and after it has been cleared. Examples would be the school festival, the raid on the cruise ship and obviously the final mission when there's flavour text describing the reaction of the crowds while the player's party is making its way through to the enemy HQ.

Character actions - Besides sex, there's narration describing how the main party overcomes its hurdles. One example being the battle between the ALyCE sisters and the main party at the port. Besides this, the separate character stories have enough narration of what each individual is doing outside of the main story.

Thoughts - They're in the sex scenes on occasion, but the characters in this story usually vocalise what they want to say. Plenty of examples in the main and character stories. One example would be a monologue from Murasaki after his final interaction with Tsuina, but there are others interspersed in the character stories as well.Last modified on 2022-06-27 at 00:34
#946 by wertville
2022-06-27 at 01:10
< report >#945
This isn't being pedantic. For good reason, the guidelines specify that there has to be regular amounts of non-dialogue to warrant inclusion. Many RPGs, like Neptunia, Disgaea and Persona 3 Portable, have a "narrative" and display their text in an ADV format. They're excluded on the basis that they tell their narrative entirely through dialogues.

As far as I can tell, everything you've pointed out is still done through dialogue, aside from the aforementioned H scenes. Again, we're not talking about a narrative here- "a narrative" is more or less just a synonym of "a story", and that is neither contested here nor unique to visual novels. We're specifically talking about non-dialogue text that describes visuals, events, character actions or thoughts to the reader. This very page has a discussion regarding how "Dialogue Based" is something that can only apply to non-hybrid VNs.

I don't believe this is a discrepancy between the original Japanese and English Johren releases- I have a day 1 physical Japanese copy and I noticed the same thing.
#947 by harleyquin
2022-06-27 at 01:18
< report >
As far as I can tell, everything you've pointed out is still done through dialogue, aside from the aforementioned H scenes. Again, we're not talking about a narrative here- "a narrative" is more or less just a synonym of "a story", and that is neither contested here nor unique to visual novels. We're specifically talking about non-dialogue text that describes visuals, events, character actions or thoughts to the reader. This very page has a discussion regarding how "Dialogue Based" is something that can only apply to non-hybrid VNs.

This game does not have a separate interface where there's no dialogue whatsoever and a 3rd-party storyteller talks about ongoing events. What narration there is occurs in the same place as the dialogues (the bottom box when events are running).

I think the emphasis you're putting on having a separate non-dialogue text box is pedantic, since some of the narration does indeed occur in the examples I gave earlier. You already own the game, so I'm not sure why you haven't been able to answer your own question by just playing it through and then judging for yourself. If you're relying on Youtube videos, then I'm not sure what's the point of questioning this one when games like Ixseal (also in the Alicesoft stable and one which I've played to completion) have roughly the same proportion of non-dialogue text as this game yet are not questioned.

According to the in-house rules, your questioning would disqualify quite a few of the Alicesoft stable, since lots of them are raising simulators which don't have non-dialogue narrative (the long ADV boxes which aren't dialogue screens with character sprites shown alongside the text). Might as well go through them as well, since the borderline games are not to be cited when arguing for inclusion (which is the entire Eushully catalogue, the other major SRPG 18+ game maker with all of its works in this database).Last modified on 2022-06-27 at 01:25
#948 by wertville
2022-06-27 at 01:41
< report >#947
I'm not talking about a separate interface. I'm talking about text that is not spoken by any characters, as seen in the H scenes.

While I can't speak about Ixseal (it's on my list), I am playing Escalation Heroines and it does have the amount of narration I would expect from an Alicesoft game- Light, but consistently prevalent. link
Text like this made up maybe 5-10% of this particular event, which is what I would expect something meeting the inclusion guidelines to look like. (Of course, EscaHeroines likely gets booted on the "Uninterrupted" clause)

The Choukou series are also basically Nukige, at least with my experience between Esca, Haruka and Heroines, so even if the narration was only limited to H-scenes the argument would be much stronger for "Consistent"

I'm not currently playing through Dohna Dohna because my Japanese is still slow and I have to prioritize Tsukihime if I ever want to go to a fighting game event again. However, skipping through a youtube video is low-effort and not at all uncommon for those debating the inclusion guidelines.
#949 by harleyquin
2022-06-27 at 01:58
< report >
I don't believe this is a discrepancy between the original Japanese and English Johren releases- I have a day 1 physical Japanese copy and I noticed the same thing.

However, skipping through a youtube video is low-effort and not at all uncommon for those debating the inclusion guidelines.

So how on earth can you tell what's the difference if you won't play through it yourself? If you're not even capable of seeing through Youtube highlights, why bother raising this in the first place?

As for your screenshot, this game has quite a bit of text like that. If you think that's enough for other games to qualify for this database but not this one, then you're making things up as you go along. Even if the text is limited to the H-scenes, said H-scenes are about 20% of the overall text content. More than enough to meet your criteria, and it's also the case for Ixseal where a lot of the exposition was through the dialogue.

If you're intent on pressing your case for Dohna Dohna to be deleted, you would have to present it as 1. It's a hybrid, but too much gameplay over reading for a first playthrough and 2. The dialogue scenes do not have the usual non-dialogue exposition interspersed throughout the text for the entire game, only in sex scenes. Main and character story dialogues are just that, pure conversations between characters. Even if the characters voice things out in their heads, it's still in a conversational format. Sex scenes are quite numerous in this game, but if it's pure consistency based on the in-house rules, then this and a lot of other hybrids no longer qualify for inclusion.Last modified on 2022-06-27 at 02:10
#950 by wertville
2022-06-27 at 02:27
< report >#949
I've literally been skipping through the complete playthrough I linked every time I've posted. I don't want to go too far past where I am in the game, but that's still a good 3-4 episodes/hours worth of content with absolutely no narration outside of H. It does not have the same 5-10% narration-boxes-per-scene that Esca Heroines does, at least in this early part of the story. I couldn't find one. It's possible I could have skipped over it in my skimming, but that's still <1%.

If the H-content is enough to meet the narration criteria in a non-nukige I'm satisfied with that. However, I feel like that should be clarified in the guidelines because that's not what I think of when it comes to "Consistently", and in my years of lurking I don't recall seeing that be stated as the intent behind the rule.

I'm not making up anything, I'm clarifying my understanding of the guidelines. This is what I was talking about from the start. I have not seen any text like this outside the H scenes.

To be clear- I have no power here. I'm merely making the best argument I can with my understanding of the guidelines. I don't particularly want to see Dohna Dohna removed (so if you could provide screenshots/clips of the narration I would gladly welcome it), but I'd rather have consistency than an arbitrary label and figured this was a topic worth discussing.Last modified on 2022-06-27 at 02:38