Game inclusion in the DB

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#226 by beliar
2016-02-13 at 16:48
It seems I am to be the designated bad guy and a perpetual bearer of bad news.
In other words, yesterday someone added a sequel to 'Nanashi no Game' to the DB. I have been actually aware about the translation of the sequel for some time - I just didn't add it to the DB, because I never considered it a VN. This new addition made me take a closer look both at Nanashi no Game and its sequel Nanashi no Game: Me. The conclusion is that I do not believe either of those games are VNs.
Here are the full playthroughs of both games on Youtube:
First game
Second game

Discuss. Just no flamewars, please. One bunny eared lawyer was one bunny eared lawyer too many.
#227 by megazerox
2016-02-13 at 17:30
I realize the LLtQ is mostly decided, but I'd like to at least give my final thoughts/counterarguments of why it should be considered a VN.

The main problem I see is that the scenes are too short. You rarely read for more than a few minutes without being dropped back at a screen for the raising simulation. I think that counts as an "interruption".

The "interruptions" tend to ultra short though. Usually, the flow of LLtQ is something like:

1) Choose what classes to take - 15 seconds
2) Read an ADV style segment - 2 minutes
3) Choose a weekend activity - 5 seconds
4) Repeat

"The story is told employing one of the known Visual Novel presentation methods such as ADV, NVL and their variations, consistently and for a significant length - at least 50% of the game should be made of pure, VN-style reading," Most of the reading isn't "VN-style."

I'd argue that it is. Like I said in my previous counterargument, the ADV reading segments generally make up the majority of the time spent on the VN. So the 50% should be met.

It is true my personal approach with VNs is to play them, whereas most of you seem to read them by default. So it was a lot easier for me to feel it as a VN in spite of how integrated the sim mechanics were to the story

I'd also like to back up Palas' statement regarding the lack of freedom making it less of a raising sim. Most raising sims allow you complete freedom. Want to make someone that will grow up to be a maid or something? Go ahead. Want to make them a fighting priest or whatever? Go ahead. In LLtQ, your freedom is greatly restricted. If you do something like investing in falconry and stuff, you'll probably die. Maybe because of this, I've always seen it more as a VN than a raising sim.

First of all, it only uses narration in a few select scenes that are more complicated than the rest. The vast majority of the scenes are super short dialogues.

Honestly, from my 68 hours with LLtQ, I can say that it has a fair amount of narration. The thing is, most of it is put into the latter half of the game, and the latter half as enough divergence that a lot of it still won't be seen even after 4 or 5 successful playthroughs.

In the end, maybe my perspective is just one of someone who has played the game so much that most of the stuff is skipped through just to find new divergences in the game. I don't know. At the very least, please don't call me a troll, Usagi.
#228 by takata
2016-02-14 at 00:08
@#223 palas:
It is true my personal approach with VNs is to play them, whereas most of you seem to read them by default. So it was a lot easier for me to feel it as a VN in spite of how integrated the sim mechanics were to the story.
My impression is that the numbers pervade the story so much that I start looking at "what Elodie's numbers do in the game" as opposed to "what my choices do in the story". My lack of interest in the story may be affecting my judgment there... I don't recall reading or playing any VNs that used and displayed numbers to this degree for the story though.

@#227 megazerox:
The "interruptions" tend to ultra short though.
If they were less frequent, and if the story segments had more continuity with each other, then that would help, in my opinion.

I feel like I'm subconsciously weighing in a number of factors when deciding if something is a VN or not. >.<
- [reading the story] / [playing the game] ratio
- length of time you can play without being "interrupted"
--- I would not consider normal choices to be an interruption. The more something pulls me out of the story and into a game, the more of an interruption I consider it to be. This is probably subjective.
- use of narration to tell the story instead of just dialogue
- the way it is presented
---So something like School Days appears to lose points here, but probably keeps enough points elsewhere through lack of any gameplay.Last modified on 2016-02-14 at 00:21
#229 by dk382
2016-02-14 at 01:39
Regarding the feeling of "control" in LLtQ, perhaps this was due to me using a guide so I could experience a complete playthrough. But to be honest, I don't think the argument that you can make "wrong" choices and get bad ends sways me much. If anything, that aspect especially feels kind of gamey, to me. Fail states are something games have, and the inclusion of bad ends in VNs is sort of a gamification of the choice system. Or rather, VNs slow evolution away from that idea is indicative of how they've been becoming less game-like over the years. Old-style VNs that had plenty of fail states felt more game-like to me than modern VNs. Even something like FS/N feels kind of game-like to me at times, although it's obviously plenty VN enough aside from that.

So the fact that you are able to make wrong choices and fail makes it feel less like a VN and more like a game to me.

@226: Yeah, these definitely don't seem to meet our criteria. Not from a gameplay ratio standpoint or a narration standpoint.

@222: I can assure you there are no secret mod conspiracies, but I'm not sure how much that assurance is worth to you. Pretty much none of us talk to each other off the site and, well, we don't really talk to each other much on the site, either. We have no unified agenda or anything.

For BlazBlue and Melty Blood, aren't the story modes very VN-like? Obviously fighting games with any amount of story usually have the story outweigh the gameplay in comparison, but these games have much more than just a little bit of story. The ORIGINAL version of Melty Blood has extensive VN-like sequences between fights. You routinely have 15 minutes of story between the 2 minute fights, and you have plenty of narration and it's pretty much exactly like a VN in those segments. I see no reason why Melty Blood shouldn't stay.

As for BlazBlue: link Consider that we have 13 minutes of VN before we even get to the first fight, and then the fight lasts a minute. It's a VN interrupted by short fights.

Melty Blood and BlazBlue are relatively unique among fighting games, there aren't many that have that thorough and VN-like of a story mode. You're trying to tell us that they're just like any other fighting game and thus shouldn't qualify, but that's simply wrong.Last modified on 2016-02-14 at 01:59
#230 by warfoki
2016-02-14 at 02:18
Pretty much none of us talk to each other off the site and, well, we don't really talk to each other much on the site, either.

That's not completely true. Gabe and me are talking to each other through Skype regularly, since we are irl friends. But that's no secret, anyone can figure that one out, who is interested enough to check our personal boards.

That still doesn't make the "mods conspiring against me" idea any less ludicrous though.
#231 by jazz957
2016-02-14 at 02:37
People who think people are conspiring against them or having some kind of persecution complex, makes me completely tune them out.
#232 by palas
2016-02-14 at 02:47
Well, @229, that's something we'll never agree on really. For me it isn't a matter of being a game or not but about what kind of game it is. So well, that it feels like a game is a given to me.
#233 by ginseigou
2016-02-14 at 06:17
The ORIGINAL version of Melty Blood has extensive VN-like sequences between fights. You routinely have 15 minutes of story between the 2 minute fights.
@229 Like I've already said it's only due to nature of fighting games with story. They will always have story segments longer than fights. The main part of the game is not a story but gameplay itself. In these games the adv format was chosen instead of video and just that.Last modified on 2016-02-14 at 06:18
#234 by silence
2016-02-14 at 06:31
Bullshit. Melty blood is a good fighting, but it wouldn't be that good without the story behind it.Last modified on 2016-02-14 at 06:32
#235 by ginseigou
2016-02-14 at 06:59
Come on. The overwhelming presence of movie scenes in a video game doesn't make it a movie, like the presence of adv segments in a fighting doesn't make it a vn.
#236 by jazz957
2016-02-14 at 07:13
@235 Ahem, MGS4. :P
#237 by dk382
2016-02-14 at 07:19
So are you saying that it is completely impossible for any fighting game to be considered a VN hybrid regardless of how lengthy the VN segments are? They're hybrids. No one is saying they're pure VNs, but they match our inclusion criteria and are pretty soundly in the hybrid camp. If someone released a video game where 90% of the time you spend watching movies then I'd call it an interactive movie or something like that. Since in MB and BB, 90% of the time is spent on the VN segments, I think we can pretty safely include them here as hybrids.
#238 by ginseigou
2016-02-14 at 07:22
Then I'll try to add Heavy Rain to a movie database as a movie. Your abidance to the rules that made by a few users and changed several times by mods to add exceptions decided by a few users kills all the discussion.Last modified on 2016-02-14 at 07:37
#239 by gabezhul
2016-02-14 at 07:39
@238: You actually can. Old FMV games in particular are listen in pretty much all of the movie databases because of that.

I don't know about Heavy Rain though. While the game is often called "an interactive movie", it is actually closer to a non-interactive adventure game. There are still plenty of character control, QTEs and decisions in it.

Also, are we back at the dumb mod-conspiracy again? Really? -.-'
#240 by dk382
2016-02-14 at 08:13
@238 The thread that decided these rules was open to discussion for months. I really don't understand your point. Like, I get what you're saying, but it's baffling to me. Yes, since we allow VN hybrids, a game that is 90% VN is allowed on this database, of course. It doesn't matter what genre that other game is in. Like, how is this a discussion?

I'm completely willing to hear a counterargument. But so far all of your counter-arguments have been "because it's a fighting game!" which doesn't really seem relevant to me. How is the genre of the hybrid's other component meaningful? Like, if Melty Blood was the exact same game but instead of doing fighting game stuff you played solitaire for a minute between the VN segments, would you object to its inclusion here?

If you instead want me to discard the rules and go by "feel," then yes, Melty Blood feels like a VN to me. It feels like a VN with very brief gameplay interruptions. So does BlazBlue's story mode.

edit: If other people want to back up ginseigou's assertion, then please do. I'll happily bow down to the majority opinion.

If you'd also like to propose a rule change, then by all means. The rules aren't permanently set in stone.Last modified on 2016-02-14 at 08:32
#241 by beliar
2016-02-14 at 10:27
By this point it appears that Ginseigou is just arguing for the argument sake. Let's just tune him out, as it's counterproductive to pay so much attention to him.

Rather read my post t7442.226, if you missed it. Dk382 is the only one who gave some sort opinion on that and I'm loath to simply remove the games with so little feedback. Another conspiracy theory incoming courtesy of "The Nameless Game" fans :-P
#242 by ginseigou
2016-02-14 at 10:54
Have mods reached the conclusion whether a pure relation is enough to add a vn that not fit under the hybrid rules?
Because there are several games proposed for deletion but for some reason ignored.Last modified on 2016-02-14 at 10:59
#243 by takata
2016-02-14 at 11:08
^ You're not supposed to add anything just because it's related to an accepted VN or hybrid VN. It has to be a VN or hybrid VN itself. What games were being proposed for deletion for this reason?Last modified on 2016-02-14 at 11:09
#244 by dk382
2016-02-14 at 11:10
We only have so much time in the day to check every single proposal here and people are making them pretty quickly... Which have we missed?
#245 by beliar
2016-02-14 at 11:14
Which ones?Let me recount games that were proposed in this thread:
'Digital' - I have already shared my opinion about "Digital' and I see no reason to remove it.
Snatcher/Policenauts - these are VNs and they will remain in the DB.
Ar Tonelico Series - they have been discussed to death and back. The general consensus is to leave the alone.
Melty Blood/Blaz Blue - they are VN hybrids and fully fit into our guidelines.
Phoenix Wright - Gabe is the only one clamoring for their removal. I see no specific reason to kick them out.
True Love - no one said anything about the game and I haven't played it.
Nanashi no Game - my suggestion and I'm still waiting for feedback.
Seasons of the Wolf - know nothing about the game. Minah is the only one who played it. So I defer to her on this.
So, what are you talking about?Last modified on 2016-02-14 at 11:15
#246 by ginseigou
2016-02-14 at 11:14
Digital: A Love Story, Tales of Aravorn: Seasons Of The Wolf, Mamanyonyo and one from me Gyakuten Kenji. People motivate their inclusion by relations and sometime openly write they're not fit hybrids.Last modified on 2016-02-14 at 11:14
#247 by dk382
2016-02-14 at 11:21
For Gyakuten Kenji specifically, that's just another phoenix wright game. It's all the same series and why we have it is explained in the special games section of the FAQ. If we remove it, we'd have to remove the entire series. I'm not really interested in arguing about its inclusion right now, that series is nothing but a headache.

I don't really know much about the others.
#248 by ginseigou
2016-02-14 at 11:27
That's basically saying it's because of relations. This game is a spin-off and this said in its description.Last modified on 2016-02-14 at 11:31
#249 by dk382
2016-02-14 at 11:28
No, it's not. Christ. I think I'm done with this thread. Ginseigou successfully made me give up, congrats.
#250 by takata
2016-02-14 at 11:48
@#248 ginseigou:
That's basically saying it's because of relations. This game is a spin-off and this said in its description.
No not quite. _Supposedly_ the Gyakuten Kenji series is similar enough to the Gyakuten Saiban series that it can get in on all the same arguments that kept the GS series in the database. If you think we're wrong; that is, if you think the GK series is sufficiently different to the GS series that it shouldn't get in for whatever reasons GS got in, then please link a youtube video supporting your point.Last modified on 2016-02-14 at 11:49